AK47 vs. C7 or M16

[hardtail]

I have seen that show too, I believe it said the M-16 would be a better rifle for long range and the AK-47 would be better for close combat . I was also told that the powder use by the original M-16 was improved to be less dirty then the stuff used from battleship powder.
If it was up to me I would deffinetly pick the AK-47 over the M-16 or C-7.

 

[1feral1]

If it was up to me I would deffinetly pick the AK-47 over the M-16 or C-7.

Why is that Hardtail? I was wondering what you are basing your decision on. Not that it matters, but I have heaps of trigger time on both (+25 yrs), and overall the M16 family has the AK beat hands down.

Do you know the difference between the AK-47 (the AK 47 was superceded in 1959 by a lighter modified version) and the AKM or AKS-74? Have you had the chance not just hold one or read about one, but actually fire it til its so hot even gloves don't help.

A few weaknesses I have observed are as follows:

- no hold open after the last rd is fired (thats a bad feature in itself)
- difficulty on moving the change lever (safety catch) with the stock folded, even nearly impossible with gloves on, plus a distinct 'clack' when moving from safe to the firing positions - noisey at night
- no arctic trigger
- poor sights and difficult to zero without a special tool
- difficult for LH shooters to use

The Russians (and other former Com Bloc states) have indeed tried to advance the AK system with the latest variants, but the AK family of weapons is not the best of them all by far.

 

[winchable]

In the latest British edition of Maxim they did an interview the inventor of the AK-47.
Interesting read.
General Kalashnikov is still alive and serving at 85 years old.

 

[1feral1]

Just in from PT....

Ole 'MT' himself, although he seems to take credit the design, the resemblance to the German 7.92 x 33mm MP44 is just too close. In my opinion (and others) he most likely had several captured German engineers to 'help' him along over the years.

Its a good weapon system, and is supposed to be the most mass produced assault rifle ever made, followed by the M16 family.

From memory the AK-47 (and variants) have been made in:

Russia
Bulgaria
China
Poland
East Germany
North Korea
Egypt
Romania
Hungary
Yugoslavia
Finland (Valmet)
Israel (Galil)
South Africa (R4)

While again to the best of my memory the M16 (and variants) has been made in:

Canada
South Korea
USA
The Philippines
China (copied without licence)

Cheers,

Wes

 

[KevinB]

Why is that Hardtail?

Because it works better in Rainbow Six  :


;D

 

[1feral1]

Struth Mate!

;D

Wes

 

[Acorn]

From memory the AK-47 (and variants) have been made in:
<snip>
Israel (Galil)

Wes, I thought the Galil was a copy of the FN 5.56 assault rifle of the early '80s (name currently escapes me).

Acorn

 

[1feral1]

The Galil is a modified AK in 5.56 x 45mm. Early Galil prototypes were made on Finnish Valmet M62 (7.62 x 39mm) recievers.

Sure there are many differences, (calibre, ambo safety and sights for example) but the overall gas system and trigger mech are exact copies of the AK, and some parts even interchange with both the Galil, Valmet M62 and the AK itself. I know this because not only had I read about it, I physically had done it myself. Even the Valmet op rod/carrier fits into the AK and the Galil. They say immitation is the best form of flattery.

During the CF's SARP in the early 80's the Dutch MN-1 (Dutch short barrelled SAR Galil) was trialed with the Colt Product Improved M16A2 and the FN herstal's FNC rifle.

You'd be thinking of the FNC. It's made by FN Herstal and licenced copies are also produced around the world.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[big bad john]

Wes, I thought the Galil was a copy of the FN 5.56 assault rifle of the early '80s (name currently escapes me).

Acorn

You are thinking of the CAL I believe.  Quite different.

 

[big bad john]

FN FNC

 

[KevinB]

BBJ - your last pic is that the Swedich AK5 FNC variant?

 

[big bad john]

AK5

 

[KevinB]

thx.

The Belgian Para's had the FNC when we where in Afghan - not terribly impressed...

 

[big bad john]

Piece of crud, and that's being nice.  It is prone to stoppages.

 

[1feral1]

The FN CAL was a forerunner to the FNC which is the latest type in production, and the original FN Herstal contender for the CF's SARP has changed very little.

It was the FNC that was trialed with SARP, not the CAL. As you say two different rifles, and this is correct. The FNC is also made under licence in Indonesia where its called the SS1-V1, and SS1-V2 or even called the SS2 depending on who you see or what you read.

Cheers,

Wes

 

[NATO Boy]

ZM Weapons has a very interesting AR Class weapon; the LR- 300 Rifle (the Military one, not civvy conversion.) It apparently uses a gas system that significantly fixes a majority of the flaws of AR-15 M-16 variants and the like. With the right optical sight, this rifle apparently can be deployed as a DMR-class rifle and even achieve an MOA rating on a standard range. I can;t find any info on the Military or Law Enforcement models; but there's some pics of one of the civvy models at http://www.zmweapons.com/lr-300ml.htm.

 

[KevinB]

ZM is more hype than function.  I shot one and know a few American "civilian firearms enthusiasts" that had them.

  People that can't work the M16FOW should find a new day job.  FWIW, a NIB C7A1/A2 will do MOA (and so will the C8SFW) with issue ammo.

I saw a C8A1 that KAC had a freefloat rail on it do subMoa when I was at KAC - .85 @ 100m with Federal GoldMedal 69grSMK ammo...  10shots

 

[NATO Boy]

True, but the C7 can't recover it's point of aim quickly (unless the shooter has a very good firing position.) As for full-auto with said weapon, it's effectiveness is also limited to the stance and trigger pull of the shooter (most guys get 1 of 3-4 shots on paper at 100m Standing with a short burst.) Allan Zitta's concept of mounting the gas and return spring system in front of the upper receiver is supposed to reduce recoil significantly (the nodified AR15 action was originally designed as a pistol for fast target acquisition at varying ranges of 100 - 300m) and thus make a great select-fire weapon.

Perhaps I'm overlooking the fact that I haven't had near as much time on the range as Reg Force Infantry (so my judgement of the C7 can be taken with a grain of salt but what made the ZM rifle appeal to me was the improved gas system that uses a piston system (like an AK) but still uses the rest of the M-16 design's merits (ease of use, customization, take-down, e.t.c.) This design could work quite well if implemented into a more rugged design. While the "Mid-Life Upgrade" might make the C7 an even better rifle, the ZM concept could end up the same way...

 

[KevinB]

Gas Piston ideas have been aroudn for a while - in the M16 platform - they just have not worked well in a military environment - the US Army test the ZM family and found them lacking.

HK, Lietner-Wise and others have taken up the M16piston concept and gone further -

However a direct impingment system will be more accuracte for you have less moving parts.  Despite all the naysayers that bemoan the system the most mags I've every carried operational was 16 - the C8SFW will do that with nary a hicup.

When we first got the C7's I fired near 5k rounds out of mine in one day (we had ammo and wanted to see its gag point) - whiel I added some CLP about 3K and the gun was full of a carbon/CLP slurry it still functioned right to the end.

Now it took about 5min to clean it to close enough for gov't work firing state...

I started with the FN and still dont like piston systems...

 

[Necro99]

Bah! It shouldnt be the Ak-47 vs C7A2! It should be AK-47 vs M-14, for they where of the same period. You need to defend the C7A1-2 against the AK-107.