Airborne Infantry vs Armoured Reconnaissance

[TangoTwoBravo]

I am in command of a composite Recce Sqn (C Sqn RCD) that has both infantry and armoured personnel, although I should note that we are not deployed.  My Armoured Recce guys have done plenty of dismounted work this year on exercise in a variety of settings (conventional, COIN, etc).  The vehicle certainly brings a lot of capabilities, but Armoured Recce must be prepared to dismount even if only for a short distance.  A patrol commander must be capable of establishing an old-school dug-in mud OP (we've started doing those again).  For the doctrinal clerics, once you are working for a BG the differences between close recce and medium recce start to fade.

I still try to assign tasks that capitalize on the different training and experience that an Infantry Sgt and a Armoured Sgt bring to the table.  If we need to establish contact quickly then Armoured Recce gets the nod.  If we need to have guides for a dismounted company night approach then I will use the Recce Pl.  Still, my Armoured guys to do much of their work dismounted doing what we would call Close Recce in GMR (Ground Maneouvre Reconnaissance), and I have used them to guide dismounted troops at night as part of BG deliberate ops.  I have also used my Infantry guys to conduct what was essentially an advance to contact or Zone Recce which wouldn't normally be their tasks in GMR doctrine.  I try to work their different capabilities into the estimate, but I have employed them more interchangeably than I would have thought. 

If we were working at Bde level it might be a little different, but even then I would expect to see guys working dismounted to minimize exposure and maximize eyes on.

For the original poster, you will enjoy whatever reserve unit you join as long as you have good people around you.

Good luck!

p.s. - editted to spell out GMR.

 

[Franko]

If so it would seem kind of silly to task the Armour guys with the sneaky tasks before the Infantry guys.

That's not to suggest it can't be done, anymore than to suggest an Infanteer couldn't be taught to man a Coyote/Leopard, but it wouldn't be putting the right troops to the task.

Again, this is a special working relationship and NOT the norm. We don't work with Recce Plt on a regular basis and are a Brigade or higher asset, not a Bn's.

Go and take a look at the GMR and do some reading. You might be pleasantly surprised at what we actually bring to the table.

Too bad most higher ups don't and use us in the incorrect role, not to our full potential.

Crap, T2B beat me to it.

Regards

 

[SeanNewman]

Again, this is a special working relationship and NOT the norm.

What is more "truth", the way it has been done operationally for the last 5 years as our deployed main effort, or the "PAM" way as it was done in Germany?

I'm not saying that the way we do it now is right, but it is the operational norm, regardless of what we do elsewhere.  I saw them used in the worst way possible when they were treated like just another Coy when we had Arghandab/SWK, because at least when they were in Spin they were performing some sort of screen task (even if the border was massive) as opposed to doing Infantry COIN tasks.

That's why I wanted to know the recent ground truth of how the OrBat is over there now that our AO has shrank so much.

 

[Franko]

What is more "truth", the way it has been done operationally for the last 5 years as our deployed main effort, or the "PAM" way as it was done in Germany?

I know Armour Recce doctrine and I teach it on a regular basis....you don't. When it comes to SME's here in this thread it's either me or T2B. Last time I checked you worked on the east side of J7, not the west.

I know my lane and this is it, along with tanks.

Get educated and get back to us.

Regards

On a Moderator note: the vast majority of the members here are getting tired of the same song and dance from you. Don't come back with yet another spin on my words either.

 

[McG]

What is more "truth", the way it has been done operationally for the last 5 years as our deployed main effort, or the "PAM" way as it was done in Germany?

The current GMR publication was published some time in '07.  I would hardly call it the "Germany way"

 

[Franko]

The current GMR publication was published some time in '07.  I would hardly call it the "Germany way"

The latest one I have was released last spring...3 months ago.

Regards

 

[SeanNewman]

DP,

Nobody is questioning your SME experience here, and nobody is questioning the doctrine.

I apologize if my tone suggested otherwise but it certainly isn't the case.  Nobody is making this a p___ing contest.

My point is that we are doing something overseas a certain way and that is fact.  Whether or not you teach it a certain way is great, but if we do it operationally a different way then that's all I'm getting at.  For that matter the Infantry Recce or Snipers weren't exactly getting employed up to their capabilities, either.

I have even granted you that I believe the way your forces are being employed isn't ideal.

I don't see what you're getting upset about; facts are facts and I never said I knew more than you did.  If you want to drop your Moderator hammer on me because I pointed out that we were doing something a certain way overseas then so be it.

 

[muskrat89]

I apologize if my tone suggested otherwise but it certainly isn't the case.

Your tone suggests, as always, that you are the all-seeing, all-knowing omnipotent master of all things military and that almost everyone from Privates to Generals are doing things wrong in your eyes. You don't listen to advice, friendly or otherwise. You act as if "winning theoretical arguments on an internet website" is the highest-weighted portion of your PER.

Please stop bickering with everybody. You are becoming a burden to the staff. We get more reported posts involving you than anyone else.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

DP,

Nobody is questioning your SME experience here, and nobody is questioning the doctrine.

I apologize if my tone suggested otherwise but it certainly isn't the case.  Nobody is making this a p___ing contest.

My point is that we are doing something overseas a certain way and that is fact.  Whether or not you teach it a certain way is great, but if we do it operationally a different way then that's all I'm getting at.  For that matter the Infantry Recce or Snipers weren't exactly getting employed up to their capabilities, either.

I have even granted you that I believe the way your forces are being employed isn't ideal.

I don't see what you're getting upset about; facts are facts and I never said I knew more than you did.  If you want to drop your Moderator hammer on me because I pointed out that we were doing something a certain way overseas then so be it.

Doctrine is in place for a reason. We train for 'a' war. Not for 'the' war. The sooner people take the vision limiting blinders off , the better. If we are doing something in a certain theatre, it's because conditions dictate we do it that way. Down the road, or across the border, that solution may not be optimal nor wanted.

Being part of the "We did it this way in Afghanistan, so that's the way it's done here (or should be done)" group is no better than the same people that denigrate others for saying 'Well, in Germany........". Careful where you tread.

To paraphrase Pogo - 'You have met the enemy and he is you'

I'll reiterate. Our doctrine and general training are there to learn how to fight A war. Not THE war.

Climb out of your big picture view restricting box and look around.

On a side note, as you brought it up,

He's also not dropping the Mod hammer on you. He's simply making you aware of the constant bombardment of complaints we hear about you.

 

[TheAnnihilator]

So just to clarify, how often do Armoured Recce guys do dismounted operations? Also, what are the main differences between the work of an Armoured Reconnaissance soldier and an Infantry Reconnaissance soldier? (besides the fact that one uses vehicles) Thanks for all the posts, and I look forward to all future ones.

 

[SeanNewman]

TA,

It's not even that simple or cut and dry, because both can also do the opposite (Infantry can be in a vehicle and Armour Recce can be on foot).

Added:  I can't speak for the Armour side or the Reserve side, but in a Reg Force unit, typically the Recce Platoon is made up of the "checked out" soldiers.  It's still part of the Bn, but more or less it is considered an honour to make it there, and that's where you'll see the guys who excel with the courses like Pathfinder, etc.

 

[George Wallace]

So just to clarify, how often do Armoured Recce guys do dismounted operations? Also, what are the main differences between the work of an Armoured Reconnaissance soldier and an Infantry Reconnaissance soldier? (besides the fact that one uses vehicles) Thanks for all the posts, and I look forward to all future ones.

As a Reservist, you will likely do a lot of dismounted operations, due to several factors: lack of vehicles, lack of radios, lack of Training Areas, requirement to learn the 'Basics', etc.  Armour Recce usually does the Recce further out from the Front Line, in behind the Enemy, than does the Infantry Recce who opperate closer to Friendly troops.  Armd Recce do Route Recces, Sector and Area Recces, Traffic Control Points, Vehicle Check Points, Convoy Escort, and numerous other tasks that would include such things as Mounted or Dismounted OPs, securing vital points, etc.  There is quite a list of tasks that they will perform.  They are also some of the best Communicators around and may be tasked to set up Radio Rebroadcast sites.  So, they must be good at dismounted and mounted operations, good at driving, good in using radioes and good with a wide variety of weapons.

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

So just to clarify, how often do Armoured Recce guys do dismounted operations? Also, what are the main differences between the work of an Armoured Reconnaissance soldier and an Infantry Reconnaissance soldier? (besides the fact that one uses vehicles) Thanks for all the posts, and I look forward to all future ones.

The amount of time that an Armoured Recce soldier will spend dismounted will vary.  This year, on exercise, my Armoured Recce guys have spent quite a bit of time away from their vehicles.  The amount of time spent away from the vehicle could be a couple of minutes, hours or even days.  My Infanty Recce guys, I should note, also have vehicles. 

By doctrine, Armoured Recce troops conduct "medium" reconnaissance while Infantry Recce platoons conduct "close" reconnaissance.  It gets fuzzy in practice, and in the not too recent past both Armoured and Infantry recce were classed as "close" reconnaissance.

The main doctrinal difference is that Armoured Recce can conduct zone reconnaissance, while Infantry Recce conduct "close target reconnaissance."  Armoured Recce troops do, however, conduct tactical tasks that are very similar to CTR.  In theory, Armoured Recce finds the enemy positions while the Infantry defines.  To the Trooper or Private, though, there won't be huge differences.  The Armoured Recce Patrol Commander may well hide his vehicles in the low-ground and send out a small foot patrol to cloverleaf a position to find it without exposing his own vehicles.  He might only be looking to send a good 6 figure grid with a rough enemy layout.  The Infantry Recce Section commander who takes the contact over will most likely conduct a more detailed and prolonged cloverleaf and maintain observation to send 8 figure grids of the position layout as well as prepare to mark and guide control measures.  While this is going on the Armoured Recce folks have moved on into the depth.  In this scenario both Infantry and Armour used their vehicles to get close to the position, and both dismounted to get eyes-on.

In a more COIN-like setting both elements may find themselves conducting fairly prolonged Observation Posts.  Both will spend time driving through the Area of Operations either to get somewhere to conduct a task or as part of a patrol.  It is hard to remain covert in a populated environment regardless of your cam and concealment skills.

If you are stuck on choosing between reserve infantry and reserve armour, let me ask you how you would spend a perfect weekend in the bush.  Would you like ot hike or go off-roading with a 4x4?

 

[TheAnnihilator]

I would definitely prefer to go off-roading with a 4x4. At this point Armoured is starting to sound pretty good. That being said, I have two further questions to pose to the forum.

1. Which trade gets better choices of additional courses? (ex. para courses, advanced hand to hand combat, advanced recce, Sniper courses, pathfinder, ect...)

2. Which trade would be better if I eventually wanted to end up in Special Forces? (not saying I'm only joining for that, but if it turns out I'm good at the job, it would be something I'd be interested in)

Thanks and happy posting

 

[Nfld Sapper]

I would definitely prefer to go off-roading with a 4x4. At this point Armoured is starting to sound pretty good. That being said, I have two further questions to pose to the forum.

1. Which trade gets better choices of additional courses? (ex. para courses, advanced hand to hand combat, advanced recce, Sniper courses, pathfinder, ect...)

2. Which trade would be better if I eventually wanted to end up in Special Forces? (not saying I'm only joining for that, but if it turns out I'm good at the job, it would be something I'd be interested in)

Thanks and happy posting

Probably not the best way to help you choose what trade you want to get into.........

 

[TheAnnihilator]

Probably not the best way to help you choose what trade you want to get into.........

I understand that going into special ops should not be the only reason, and I mentioned that in my post. As for the courses, that is important because if I realize I don't like Recce, I need to know which trade has more diverse options.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

And I was comenting on both of your questions posted before.....

Anyways....

SPECIALTY TRAINING
As their careers progress, Infantry Soldiers who demonstrate the required ability and ambition will be offered (through formal courses or on-job training) the following advanced MOC training:

Communicator
Reconnaissance Patrolling
Anti-Armour Gunner
Sniper
Section Commander

The following specialty training may also be available:

Basic Parachutist
Parachute Jumpmaster
Para Instructor
Mountain Warfare
Instructional Techniques
First Aid Instructor
Rappelmaster
Unarmed Combat Instructor
Nuclear, Biological and Chemical Defence Instructor
Urban Operations

Info take from Infantry Soldier Monogram (Canadian Forces Recruiting Site)

SPECIALTY TRAINING
As their careers progress, Armoured Soldiers who demonstrate the required ability and ambition will be offered (through formal courses or on-job training) the following advanced MOC training:

Armoured Gunnery Specialist
Combat Arms Telecommunications Specialist
Combat Arms Driving and Maintenance Specialist
Crew Commander
Recce Troop Leader

The following specialty training courses may also be available:

Unarmed Combat Instructor
Assault Troop
Armoured Crew - Reconnaissance


Info take from Armoured Soldier Monogram (Canadian Forces Recruiting Site)

EDITED TO LIST SOURCES

 

[McG]

1. Which trade gets better choices of additional courses? (ex. para courses, advanced hand to hand combat, advanced recce, Sniper courses, pathfinder, ect...)

As for the courses, that is important because if I realize I don't like Recce, I need to know which trade has more diverse options.

Actually, you need to pick the occupation you want for its bare-bones reality.  There is no guarantee of any of specialty training.  If you join the infantry because you want to be a sniper or pathfinder, you may find yourself very disappointed. 

I'd also suggest that your phrase "better choices of additional courses" will lead to some rather subjective results depending on what one thinks is "better."

And you hit the nail right on the head with the two regiments, QOR and QYRANG are the two i'm considering.

If you are joining the Reserves, you should expect that a lot of the courses you want to get will be out of reach to you.

2. Which trade would be better if I eventually wanted to end up in Special Forces? (not saying I'm only joining for that, but if it turns out I'm good at the job, it would be something I'd be interested in)

If that is your goal, you are as well of choosing to be a cook in the Navy as anything else.

NFLD Sapper,
Not sure the source of your quoted training opportunities, but there a number of things listed exclusively under Infantry that should really be shown for both.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

NFLD Sapper,
Not sure the source of your quoted training opportunities, but there a number of things listed exclusively under Infantry that should really be shown for both.

Straight from the recruiting website MCG, will add links to the monograms shortly....

 

[TheAnnihilator]

So from what i can see, Infantry is the more diverse way to go. Does anyone know whether or not it will be open for next summer? Also, once again, if anyone reading this is in the Infantry, and specializes in Reconnaissance, please post in response to the original question. Thanks to all who have already posted.