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Air CIC Prohibited from wearing CADPAT?

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Okay......<puts on hockey helmet and shoulder pads>....I'll throw in my two cents.  This has nothing to do with the appropriate scales of issue, or what any HQ says about who should be wearing what.  My response to the whole debate is strictly emotional.

I am the son of an RCAF airman, a former Air Cadet, and ex Air CIL (CIC).  I am also a former Infantryman and Sig w/ the PRes (fifteen years). So I have several points of view regarding this issue.

What I want to say is this...<Closes eyes tight, and tenses for the dog-pile>....why in h*** are all the CIC Air types so damn keen to wear CADPAT?  Back in the proverbial "day" it was a matter of pride for Air types (whether, Reg F, Res F, CIC or Cdt) to distance themselves as much as possible from anything remotely Army.  This was particularly true in the dark era just after Unification when all Blue jobs were supposed to look like Gravel Crunchers.  We went to great lengths to do anything we could to maintain some semblance of Air Force identity.  Wearing combats, unless one was actually "in the field" was simply NOT ON.

If CIC officers are indeed in a field environment, then by all means they should be wearing CADPAT; no argument.  What I'm reading here is that a number of Air CIC are upset that they can't wear it as a Garrison Dress.  Of course, referring to an AIR FORCE uniform as Garrison Dress is--IMHO--an oxymoron.

Notwithstanding Scales of Issue--and thank heavens for the likes of ArmyVern who can tender the official word on such things--I fail to understand why CIC would even WANT to wear an army combat uniform for anything other than being down and dirty in the mud.  If you are at your Air Cadet unit, there is no reason for CADPAT or any other "field" style uniform.  There is nothing--NOTHING--going on at squadron parade nights that requires combat clothing. In those days--before I joined the PRes--the LAST thing I wanted was to look like a Pongo.

Now here I am 30 years later, and grateful for the opportunity I had as an army type to don the old olive drab Combats, (I was out long before the advent of CADPAT), but I cannot understand the desire of CIC Air Officers to wear what is without a doubt an "army" uniform.  Aside from the fact that CADPAT looks "way cool", and praying that their motive is NOT just so they can look like a bunch of lean-mean-killing-machines, I am at a loss to understand the angst.
 
Signalman,

I see where youre coming from there, with regards to trying to differentiate between the three elements.  However, its all the Canadian Forces.  keeping the traditions are important, but regarding what is worn to get work done, that should be more an issue of funtionality.

Additionally, the 2nd Gen CADPAT that Army uses, is in fact, Air Spec.  The buttons are hidden to prevent any FOD issues.  So really, Army is wearing out stuff.

 
opie_cic said:
I just finished up my BOQ in Borden.  I'm Air.  We were in work dress, which now consist of dress pants and short sleeved shirt. (though we transitioned into the sweater as well, since it went over the time change).  The poly pants formally worn with work dress are no longer issued.  In the field, we wore CADPAT if we had it, and if not it was grey overalls. 

I have CADPAT, it was issued to me here in North Bay.  I've got all the gear CIC is entitled to have.  However I've only recently moved here, and my experience is not every supply is the same.  North Bay is totally cool, and its an Air Force town, so that may have played a roll.  However, my ASU used to be London.  In my expeience, as well as that of others, they are not big fans of CIC, and they have no problem showing it.

Cadets themselves are forbidden from wearing CADPAT.  They are not members of the CF, and cannot wear something that looks like it.  Cadets are permitted to wear OD's, since it is no longer the uniform of the CF.

CIC Officers, are members of the CF.  We are entitled.

To clarify. You were not in work dress. It doesn't exist anymore. You were in your DEU dress pants and the short sleeve shirt ... this dress is called DEU 3b.

Read this whole thread ... seeing as how you JUST got out of BMQ and just got to North Bay.

You'll find that your quick tarring of ASU London with your very broad brush strokes is NOT warranted. A few posts before yours ... even specificly mention that the Air CIC entitlement to cadpat had CEASED as per the scale of issue. Therefore ... even North Bay wouldn't have been able to issue it to CIC Officers at that point in time. It was NOT London being "CIC unfriendly."

The scales are now updated ... and guess what? The entitlement is on them ... so even London would now be legally able to issue them to you.

North Bay being an Air Force town played ZERO role -- it's all about the scales of entitlement; and, quite frankly, I am getting sick to death of people such as yourself who make posts that insinuate that the reasons you don't or can't get something is simply because someone felt like screwing around the CIC today, or the Primary res F today, or the infantry today, or yadda yadda yadda.

Short?? If you are entitled by scale -- you'll get it.

If you're not entitled by scale -- you won't get it.

And, as this thread points out, those scales are always evolving and changing. I don't get paid simply to be an asshole and say no .... "just because" and neither does a single other Supply Tech I know. If we are able to legally issue you something, and it's in stock, and it's not ops restricted ... you'll damn well get it.

And to clarify further the bold bit:

CIC members are indeed members of the ResF, but they are not members of the Primary ResF (therefore the CIC are entitled to different items than the Primary ResF or the RegF -- much as the PRes have differing entitlements from the Reg F), and, as I pointed out above, AIR CIC officers have recently gone through a time period where they were NOT entitled to cadpat (even though the entitlement remained on the scales of issue for LAND CIC Officers), that was what was being discussed in this thread.

Please read the whole thread before you jump into it with unwarranted, uniformed, and incorrect comments and observations.
 
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I would fist off like to say a thank you to Signalman150 and ArmyVern for well thought out delivered statements that I could not possibly disagree with.  Recently I took BOQ and earlier this year I took 1/2 of BOTC ( long story on that one).  After returning from BOQ I had considered making a post about supply techs, but for what ever reason decided not to.  Now I feel compelled to share my experience with supply techs at 17th wing in Winnipeg.  All and I do mean all the CF members there have treated with the utmost respect since day one.  They have always tried to provide me with the most update info on what I can acquire and have sometimes even gone beyond that.  In return when I ever have a chance I drop in with coffee and donuts for there whole company to say thanks and keep up the great work.  Even though all the CF members in there were NCM I have always approached and called them all Sir and Ma'am, at first this confused them and they all politely corrected me on it.  Now they enjoy the respect that I pay them.

So remember we are all on the same team, treat them as you would want to be treated  If you really think they are going out of there way to screw you around just b/c your a CIC, they may just be having a bad day as we can all have or more probable YOUR NOT ENTITLED TO IT and if any one would know they would.

I SAY A BIG THANKS TO ALL THE SUPPLY TECH'S THAT HELPED ASSIST ME IN PASSING BOQ, AND HELP ME PASS ALL MY INSPECTIONS.  The nice thing was I was the only Naval officer on course.(he he)

By the way I have never had any issues getting any Navy supplies from the supply techs and it is primarily a Airforce / Army base.

 
Gho57rid3r said:
Even though all the CF members in there were NCM I have always approached and called them all Sir and Ma'am, at first this confused them and they all politely corrected me on it.  Now they enjoy the respect that I pay them.

Respect or not, NCMs are not supposed to be called sir or ma'am (except in the case of MWOs and CWOs, and then only by those of lower rank).  You should address them by their rank, and that in itself demonstrates your professional respect for them.

Your bringing in coffee and doughnuts is a very thoughtful gesture that others would do well to emulate.
 
Neill McKay said:
Respect or not, NCMs are not supposed to be called sir or ma'am (except in the case of MWOs and CWOs, and then only by those of lower rank).  You should address them by their rank, and that in itself demonstrates your professional respect for them.

You may at times address MWO and CWO as Mr. or failing all else address them properly by their appointment.

Or address CPO2 and CPO1s as Chiefs :D They don't mind that. Don't mix it up with their AF or an Army counterparts though. Sometimes they don't like that...
 
MedTech said:
Don't mix it up with their AF..............  counterparts though. Sometimes they don't like that...

In the MH and LRP worlds, we call our MWOs and CWO  "chief"
 
Roger. Just recalled an old AF CWO once told me to never ever cal him chief. Wans't sure, so I said maybe.
 
MedTech said:
Roger. Just recalled an old AF CWO once told me to never ever cal him chief. Wans't sure, so I said maybe.

Dont forget that the MH and LRP comunities get their heritage from the Navy, hence the "chief"......the rest of the AF i dont know about.
 
Just published on the RCSUE website.

As indicated at ref, Air Force CIC O will receive the CADPAT uniform.
2. All personal will receive three (3) uniforms (shirt and trousers). The following clothing items will be issued with the CADPAT uniform:

a. Boots of combat (1 x pair or 2 for permanent employee);
B. The ‘T’ shirts short sleeves blue or green (qty 5);
C. Black combat gloves inner/outer;
D. Rainsuit jacket and trousers;
E. Coat SAVA olive green;
F. Three (3) pr of rank slip-on;
G. Three (3) nametapes velcro;
h. Three (3) red flags and three (3) green flags velcro (field exercise).

The Eastern RCSU commander authorizes all CIC officers to wear the CADPAT uniform during the following activities:

a. Local training;
B. Shooting exercises;
C. Week-end exercises; and
D. Permanent employee at RCSU and during summer camps.
http://www.cadets.net/est/support/log/doc/Cadpat-CIC%20AIR_e.pdf


 
from yoman's post
I should point out that it is only the commander of RCSU Eastern who has autjhorized the wear of Cadpat for local training.  RCSU Eastern looks after all blue, Green & Black cadet corps BUT, each branch might have it's own directives that somehow "overlap" RCSU instructions.

RCSU Commanders in Atlantic, Central, Prairie & western regions might also have their own views on this matter....
 
geo said:
I should point out that it is only the commander of RCSU Eastern who has autjhorized the wear of Cadpat for local training.

I wonder if local training refers to parade nights?  That would be an odd time to see combats worn (especially in Eastern Region, given some other policies in effect there).
 
Neill McKay said:
I wonder if local training refers to parade nights?  That would be an odd time to see combats worn (especially in Eastern Region, given some other policies in effect there).

Some of my officers wear CADPAT on parade nights so I would assume that's what its referring too.
 
I'll gladly give my CADPATs entitlement to any CIC who wants it :P  I hate that uniform!

Max
 
D. Nicholson said:
That's more CADPAT than CIC Army are entitled too!

Why would Army CIC be entitled to more CADPAT then their Air Force counterparts? The only "logical" reason that I could think of would be that they go on more FTX's then Air Cadets do. Can somebody shed some light on how many FTX's Army Cadet Corps go on per year (on average).

 
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