Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty

[Eye In The Sky]

George,

That is actually what I meant when I said "internally", I guess I just didn't explain myself thoroughly enough.  I think Canada should let their government know what "our" stance is as a society on it...which is apparantly there stance (legally, if nothing else).

 

[tango22a]

EITS:

Expecting first grandson momentarily, his mother back from roto.

I don't condone this in any way! Maybe I didn't express myself properly. You know as well as I do that a lot of people would rather ignore a problem, hoping it will go away, and not explode all over them.

I am willing to remove the offending post soonest!

tango22a

EITS: Offending post has been erased.

t22a

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Seen, and from my end...sorry.  I thought you meant that in a way that you likely didn't.

 

[George Wallace]

Let's just be clear here.  I don't think any of us condone these acts.  What the problem is, is one of jurisdiction, and as "guests" in their land, we have no jurisdiction other than on our own personnel, who it might also be pointed out, are subject to the laws of the Host nation, as well as our own.  How and where they (the Host nation) interpret and enforce their Law is their matter.  We may be able to make a complaint through Diplomatic Channels, but that is more or less the extent of our capabilities. 

 

[BlueJingo]

We may be able to make a complaint through Diplomatic Channels, but that is more or less the extent of our capabilities.

Agreed.

 

[The Bread Guy]

This is, quite clearly, a morally difficult issue for many Canadians, Canadian soldiers included.

Canadians may not have any direct authority to intervene or to force changes but, at the very least, we need:

1. A formal channel of reporting - so that soldiers can, at least, have "done something," however inadequate, and so that, at the very least, the CF does not have to endure a constant drubbing in the press because it ignores the problem;

2. A formal channel for advising the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan that these actions lower the level of Canadian support for the mission and for the Afghan government; and

3. A formal feedback channel - so that the soldier who made the intial report knows that something, however inadequate, was done about the issue.

We may be able to make a complaint through Diplomatic Channels, but that is more or less the extent of our capabilities. 

Thanks for these tidbits - given the jurisdictional and cultural sensitivities, these may be the only workable method of squaring the circle.  One add-on from me on ERC's second point:

2. A formal channel for advising the Government of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan that these actions lower the level of Canadian support for the mission and for the Afghan government, as well as potentially reducing the Afghan people's faith in the integrity of any security forces who may be guilty of such acts

- edited to add better metaphor -

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Various definitions of homosexuality across the world aside, what was witnessed and the what the main issue here is the open and unabashed exploitation of minors for sexual purposes. And of all institutions WE (the CF and other western elements) are there to train and elevate to a higher standard of conduct, the Afghan security forces are being mentioned specifically. The former soldier interviewed mentions witnessing an incident right in the ANP HQ, and would not intervene for fear of causing an altercation. Question here is where are the CF's arcs of fire when it comes to establishing standards of conduct for one of the key security institutions that are supposed to UPHOLD the law (Afghan law no less). How can we reach any milestones or developmental phases when these institutions continue to be seen as corrupt, incompetent, underequipped etc etc? And adding child sodomy and threats of other violence (ref the knife) to the mix...??
The issue is not the imposition of Canadian (or other Western) values on Afghans, it is establishing minimum values that adhere to common and formal law and human rights standards.

 

[George Wallace]

The issue is not the imposition of Canadian (or other Western) values on Afghans, it is establishing minimum values that adhere to common and formal law and human rights standards.

Sorry, but it is an imposition of Western "Values".  Not everyone in the world believe in or have reached the level of agreement in what are formal laws and human rights.  In many cases these are extremely foreign concepts to them.

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Sorry, but it is an imposition of Western "Values".  Not everyone in the world believe in or have reached the level of agreement in what are formal laws and human rights.  In many cases these are extremely foreign concepts to them.

Not so foreign to be included in the Afghan law, as posted earlier. Thus formal law applies. Again, how are we, the CF, going to evaluate success in "raising" these security institutions (in conjunction with others lead by CIDA, DFAIT etc) if we don't have certain benchmarks, aka acceptable standards in place? Our exit strategy (if there is one) is ensuring Afghan institutions reach a level where they can manage their own affairs and carry on COIN etc on their own. Certainly the CF should have a mechanism in place where transgressions (esp as heinous as what is discussed in this topic) are reported and dealt with in some manner. We build schools here, wells there, medical outreach this and that, and yet we fully ensure that the next generation of Afghans is G2G to elevate themselves (if only by one step or two) from where they are now.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I love it that we are condemned as trying to impose Western values on the Afghans, only to be condemned for not trying to impose Western values on Afghans. 

What's that old army saying?      F'd if you do; F'd if you don't.

100%
A while ago someone made the comment regarding new ruck sacks.
Troops bitch and bitch and bitch that they want a civilian made rucksack. Then when they get one, they bitch about it.

Same with the bugering of little boys over there.
We're told not to push our western beliefs on them. Yet we are being put under the gun for not stopping an accepted and commonly practiced tradition.

 

[George Wallace]

Not so foreign to be included in the Afghan law, as posted earlier.

Right! 

Right here at home we have laws against Racism.  Correct me if I am wrong in saying that it still occurs.  We also have Regulations and Laws against Sex, Religious, Race, Age, etc. Discrimination in the workplace, including the CF, and again, correct me if I am wrong in saying that it still happens.  We are a "Western Society" and we are still having problems enforcing our Laws on our population and changing their cultural upbringings.  What do we expect of a demolished Third World State?  Do we expect the instant Mcdonald's snap of the finger, here is your Big Mac, fix?  Get real.

 

[Soldier1stTradesman2nd]

Never did I imply this would be easy or fixable in the near- or even medium-term. However, what struck me in the story was the brushing aside of the issue (three monkeys, anyone?). Of course, we don't have the complete story, but it is of concern that there seemed to be a lack of serious concern over this from the CF chain, despite the fact that our mandate is to train the ANSF to an acceptable standard (and that should include codes of conduct and respect/education on basic human rights).
I am not arguing the issue of crimes perpetrated in the face of existing laws in any country, including Canada. Laws exist, crimes are committed for whatever reason, lawyers/judges get paid etc etc. That's not the point here. Yes, AFG is way behind the 21st Century curve ball, but somehow we have a notion and expectation of bringing that place up to speed in relatively short order. Walking into the ANP HQ, witnessing an obvious crime committed by POLICE officers and just shrugging one's shoulders because it is a cultural "norm" is NOT acceptable by any standard.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Right! 

Right here at home we have laws against Racism.  Correct me if I am wrong in saying that it still occurs.  We also have Regulations and Laws against Sex, Religious, Race, Age, etc. Discrimination in the workplace, including the CF, and again, correct me if I am wrong in saying that it still happens.  We are a "Western Society" and we are still having problems enforcing our Laws on our population and changing their cultural upbringings.  What do we expect of a demolished Third World State?  Do we expect the instant Mcdonald's snap of the finger, here is your Big Mac, fix?  Get real.

Sorry George,

Has nothing to do with "Western Society".

These are crimes against humanity, specifically children and they are guilty, and should be tried by an international court, if caught.  We are there to stop this kind of action, not get notches in our belt and buy new equipment.  It is our duty to stop this, not just build schools and allow women to cast away their burquas....

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/77328/post-725180.html#msg725180

dileas

tess

 

[PanaEng]

when did we become "guests" there?
is that a PC way of making us and the locals feel better about it?
We are there because our ally got attacked and we are hunting the perpetrators and their supporters. Now, at the same time, we are trying to make our job easier by building up the GoIRA and the institutions that represent it - the ANA and ANP. If they fail to gain the confidence of the people, we will fail.
It is against their laws and religion regardless of how they tend to rationalize it and give it cute, innocuous names. And as the 48th reminded us earlier, human rights are universal - whether you are Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, etc. or you own a flat overlooking Central Park or dig for roots in the Kalahari -
citing the lefty argument of "imposing Western values" is bad is just a cope-out.

That's just my opinion - not trying to offend anyone with the "lefty" tag, just highlighting the irony.

cheers,
Frank

 

[PanaEng]

forgot to add the "what would I do" part to round out the comment:

It would depend in the tactical situation. My first inclination would be to draw and stop a crime in progress.

As a recent directive from the ISAF Comd. (ISAF Commanders Counterinsurgency Guidance; pg 6) stated in para "Build Governance Capacity and Accountability:" "Looking the other way or enabling government officials who fail to meet their obligations makes you part of the problem." We "must demand Afghan leaders take appropriate action to hold corrupt officials accountable."

This could include handing over the perps to the local mullah so they can be dealt with in the Islamic way.  ;D
And, in the process, achieving some of the objectives of the COIN guidance: gaining the trust of the locals, enabling local leaders and setting the example.

Easier said than done i guess and I have not been there - but that's what I think.

cheers,
Frank

 

[Eye In The Sky]

100%
A while ago someone made the comment regarding new ruck sacks.
Troops bitch and bitch and bitch that they want a civilian made rucksack. Then when they get one, they bitch about it.

Same with the bugering of little boys over there.
We're told not to push our western beliefs on them. Yet we are being put under the gun for not stopping an accepted and commonly practiced tradition.

According to their own law, it is a crime though.  Doing nothing to stop it will produce that exact result; nothing. 

 

[George Wallace]

when did we become "guests" there?

When did we become "citizens" there?

is that a PC way of making us and the locals feel better about it?

No.  That is a fact. 

.......... And as the 48th reminded us earlier, human rights are universal - whether you are Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, etc. or you own a flat overlooking Central Park or dig for roots in the Kalahari -
citing the lefty argument of "imposing Western values" is bad is just a cope-out.

According to many Canadians and Lefties that may be so.  Unfortunately, in the big bad world, it is NOT.

 

[BlueJingo]

Well who is helping to re-build the ANP, would it be the duty of the donor country that is helping reconstruct the police sector to teach them to hold up their own laws? Keeping in mind that this is still against Afghanistan's Penal Code...

At a Geneva conference on Afghanistan security in April 2002, the United States and other donor countries agreed to support the rebuilding of the security forces in post-Taliban Afghanistan. They established a “five pillars” approach, each to be led by a different nation. The United States took the lead to build the Afghan National Army (ANA). Germany took the lead for the police sector. The other pillars are the justice system (Italy), counternarcotics (Britain), and disarmament of illegal armed groups (Japan).

The program calls for building the Afghan National Police by requiring a comprehensive, integrated approach that encompasses leadership training, sustaining institutions and organizations, and oversight and internal control mechanisms. It has rapidly evolved beyond police readiness requirements and training to include sweeping institutional reform of the ANP through the Ministry of Interior.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan_Police_Program

 

[Another Mom]

I would hope the  forces have some sort of guidance from informed anthropologists, psychologists or sociologists, as well as  like-minded resources inside Afghanistan regarding how to  deal with this. This is not a one-point-in-time problem. Children who are abused do not  generally grow up to be well adjusted adults. The angry, corrupt, violent Afghan of today may have been abused 20 years ago.

 

[PanaEng]

When did we become "citizens" there?

What kind of question is that? we don't have to be invited or be citizens of a place IOT go in to the aid of a NATO ally.

I guess, perhaps we are guests of the Northern Alliance...
And, sure, some would say that the missions are not the same - just semantics, one is the continuation of the other by whatever means seems politically palatable.

No.  That is a fact. 

Show me a reference - and again semantics. Would Karzai have said: thank you for your help so far, you can go now, when he was first elected?

According to many Canadians and Lefties that may be so.  Unfortunately, in the big bad world, it is NOT.

That's right. I'm glad you agree that it is a cope-out.
I'm not sure when that concept first came up (imposing Western values), perhaps reinforced by Star Trek, but I think it is inconsistent with the notion of universal human rights.

cheers,
Frank