Afghan Rapes & Canadian Soldiers' Duty

[armyvern]

Does this all sound quite disgusting? Yes. 100%. Absolutely.

Couple of comments on here have me curious though:

Further information, from the Government of Canada;

Originally posted by Tess:

http://www.international.gc.ca/foreign_policy/icc/warCrimes-en.asp#juris

Offences of Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility

Under the Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, breach of command/superior responsibility is a criminal offence. This means that military commanders and superiors are obliged to take measures to prevent or repress genocide, crimes against humanity and war crimes. In the event that such a crime is committed by one of their subordinates, military commanders and superiors are responsible for submitting the matter to the competent authorities for investigation.

I think the bold bit is quite important in all this. The ANA are not our subordinates, and neither are the populace. The above says "committed", not "observed". In respect to the above, I do not believe that there has been a bonified "Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility" ... until the CDS issued the directive that "observed" WOULD be reported. That being said, Crimes against humanity and War Crimes come in many a varied form and observations of such are reported.

This "Man Love Thursday" issue gets tricky in that Child Prostitution is condemned world-wide and is tracked by the UN. BUT -- you then get into the laws of the nation that you are in. I would argue that "rape" of young males in Afghanistan is not acceptable, is illegal in that country, and therefore ANY Canadian soldier witnessing such should be reporting it forthwith. Not only is it a crime here in Canada, but rape is also a crime in Afghanistan. In all the articles though -- I see only one story repeatedly which denotes or describes an incident as a "rape" and that would be the incident as reported by Cpl Schouten who now has PTSD after overhearing a child being raped, then was witness to the severe physical rape trauma caused to this child.

The other stories all talk about sugar-daddies ... and "boys" lining up to prostitute themselves. Is that disgusting too?? I certainly think so, but it makes me wonder "what is the age of consent in Afghanistan?" Is it 10? 12? Heck -- it was 14 right here in Canada (since 1892) and only raised up to age 16 on 01 May of this year. Technically, it is not a crime here in Canada to have sex with a 16 year old - disgusting it may be, but not criminal. Prostitution IS a crime in Canada however, so technicaly we could report all Afghan incidents as "prostitution crime in progress" if the "boy" happens to be 16 or over (as per Canadian law for consent) or under age 16 (as too young to consent - a crime). But here's the kicker --- right here in Canada do you call the police or report to your chain of command every time you see a 30 year old prostitute soliciting a john on Yonge Street in Toronto?? That's a crime too. If we are obligated to report everything that would be a crime based on our Canadian Ethics and Morals in ANOTHER country with it's own laws -- should we not be obligated to do so within our own borders first??

We are now going to start imposing Canadian Laws and standards upon the population of Afghanistan? Aren't we there to help them build their own country back up ... not turn it into "Canada East"?? If we are "imposing" our western laws, standards and ideals -- then perhaps we really do then become an "occupier" vice an "assistant". It's a slippery slope. Yes, our mandate is also to respect dignity and enforce international law, but it's not to impose Canadian laws upon the Afghan populace.

So, is there an "age of consent" in Afghanistan? If so, what is that age? A "boy" over that age selling himself to an adult male may very well disgust us and not be typical of Canadian ethics and values but that doesn't necessarily deem that act to be contrary to "Humanitarian Law" or " International Law". I wandered through the United Nations' website but I couldn't find any recommendations they had for an acceptable age of consent other than "UN workers/forces will not engage in sexual relations with anyone under the age of 18, regardless of the age of consent in effect within that nation."

Do we therefore use age 18 as the UN standard within Afghanistan?? If so, should we be reporting 17 year olds here at home in Canada too? Even if they are consenting? Or is the answer to that "No, Canadian law says 16, so no - you don't report them?" What if Afghan Law says 12?? Is their law not just as valid as ours?

It certainly may not be as advanced as our laws here, but it's a beginning. But where to start? Do you start by reporting the 14 year old boy willfully selling himself ... or do you start by reporting the 14 year old female being forced to marry some man she's never met before first (and you do know that hubby dearest does want "baby-making" sex with her too.)?? After all, she's not given any choice in the matter and is being "forced" into her position. Isn't that, in effect, "rape unreported"?? I'd interpret the CDS' direction to include filing reports on all these "arranged marriages" as well.

Or is it simply more "acceptable" to our Canadian values than Man-love Thursdays is?

To re-itterate --- I think the practise is digusting and I would never sit back and watch a rape occur or any serious abuse without firstly attempting to do something to stop it immediately, and then to report it.

But something being disgusting to me ... isn't necessarily a crime (that's why that "age of consent" in Afghanistan is important - but I don't know what it is in Afghanistan ... anyone... Bueller???)

If the caveat is going to be "prostitution is illegal - therefore report it all" ... forced marriages are also illegal here, as is polygamy ... report it all.

As for this occuring INSIDE the FOB ...

Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson last summer winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls of the neighbouring Afghan market.

"Wait a few minutes. You'll see," said one, his lip curling. "It's disgusting."

Sure enough, a handful of uniformed Afghan police officers emerged from their rundown detachment, walked through the barricades and started chatting up the dozen or so teens, some looking decidedly pre-teen.

A few minutes after they returned, the selected kids were waved through the main gates and went straight inside the police station. An hour later, when I left the observation post, the boys were still inside.
...
It should be stressed that the activity at FOB Wilson does not mean Afghan police and army officers are engaged in an epidemic of juvenile sodomy.

I'm unsure as to whether or not this article is indicating that this activity occured "IN" FOB Wilson.

What I get is that boys lined up along the walls of an Afghan market, that the police then emerged through their station's barricades and collected some boys from the market, and then proceed back through their station gate/barricades into the Police Station. I gather that this was all observed by the reporter from the watch tower of FOB Wilson. I also interpret his comment "that the activity AT FOB Wilson" to be him referring to the general area, else he'd have said "IN" FOB Wilson.

I have very serious doubts that any Comd would have allowed this to happen "IN" a Canadian compound ... and move that NO reporter would have sat on the story for a year had that actually been the case. I think people are seeing "barricades" and "gates" and assuming that they are those of FOB Wilson ... vice those commonly found outside of police stations (and previously - prisons) in Afghanistan. But, I could be wrong - I've never been to FOB Wilson. It could very well be that the police station is inside the FOB and, if that's the case, this is just soooooooooo not on and wrong. I sincerely hope that that is not the case.

 

[GAP]

Excellent summation....

 

[The Bread Guy]

Lotsa good stuff there, AV...

NO reporter would have sat on the story for a year had that actually been the case.

I hope so, too, but check out the lead paragraph of the National Post account....

Canadian soldiers in the main guard tower at forward operating base Wilson last summer winced when I asked about the sudden lineup of teenage boys along the mud walls of the neighbouring Afghan market.

You're right about the description not being clear enough re:  was it inside or outside the FOB (makes a big difference re:  how direct a role the CF boss can play).  Isn't this something a reporter should be asking about?  A really quick archive search shows material he placelined from Afghanistan in the summer of 2007 - why didn't this reporter/columnist didn't write about this phenomenon until one of the competition piped up about something similar?

Based on my limited experiences, in some newsrooms, it's not "news" unless we discover it, our editor thinks it's worth running with, and we're the first to run it big.  Could this have been the case?

right here in Canada do you call the police or report to your chain of command every time you see a 30 year old prostitute soliciting a john on Yonge Street in Toronto?? That's a crime too. If we are obligated to report everything that would be a crime based on our Canadian Ethics and Morals in ANOTHER country with it's own laws -- should we not be obligated to do so within our own borders first??

Anybody (in uniform or not) witnessing a crime in Canada should report it (yeah, I know, what are the odds of it being dealt with?) as part of trying to uphold law and order.  In AFG, though, our government is saying that our armed forces, our diplomats and our aid workers are there to help build security forces and government that the citizens can trust to look after their interests.  In light of that, do we NOT report instances where it looks like an adult authority figure is using his power unfairly over a minor?  The CF soldier in AFG is in a VERY different position than a taxpayer on Yonge.  In some ways, the soldier may have even MORE of an obligation to report, especially in light of the fact that here in the west, there are mechanisms in place if someone thinks a police officer is violating a trust of some sort.

- edited to fix grammar a bit -

 

[the 48th regulator]

Does this all sound quite disgusting? Yes. 100%. Absolutely.

Couple of comments on here have me curious though:

I think the bold bit is quite important in all this. The ANA are not our subordinates, and neither are the populace. The above says "committed", not "observed". In respect to the above, I do not believe that there has been a bonified "Breach of Command/Superior Responsibility" ... until the CDS issued the directive that "observed" WOULD be reported. That being said, Crimes against humanity and War Crimes come in many a varied form and observations of such are reported.

This "Man Love Thursday" issue gets tricky in that Child Prostitution is condemned world-wide and is tracked by the UN. BUT -- you then get into the laws of the nation that you are in. I would argue that "rape" of young males in Afghanistan is not acceptable, is illegal in that country, and therefore ANY Canadian soldier witnessing such should be reporting it forthwith. Not only is it a crime here in Canada, but rape is also a crime in Afghanistan. In all the articles though -- I see only one story repeatedly which denotes or describes an incident as a "rape" and that would be the incident as reported by Cpl Schouten who now has PTSD after overhearing a child being raped, then was witness to the severe physical rape trauma caused to this child.

The other stories all talk about sugar-daddies ... and "boys" lining up to prostitute themselves. Is that disgusting too?? I certainly think so, but it makes me wonder "what is the age of consent in Afghanistan?" Is it 10? 12? Heck -- it was 14 right here in Canada (since 1892) and only raised up to age 16 on 01 May of this year. Technically, it is not a crime here in Canada to have sex with a 16 year old - disgusting it may be, but not criminal. Prostitution IS a crime in Canada however, so technicaly we could report all Afghan incidents as "prostitution crime in progress" if the "boy" happens to be 16 or over (as per Canadian law for consent) or under age 16 (as too young to consent - a crime). But here's the kicker --- right here in Canada do you call the police or report to your chain of command every time you see a 30 year old prostitute soliciting a john on Yonge Street in Toronto?? That's a crime too. If we are obligated to report everything that would be a crime based on our Canadian Ethics and Morals in ANOTHER country with it's own laws -- should we not be obligated to do so within our own borders first??

We are now going to start imposing Canadian Laws and standards upon the population of Afghanistan? Aren't we there to help them build their own country back up ... not turn it into "Canada East"?? If we are "imposing" our western laws, standards and ideals -- then perhaps we really do then become an "occupier" vice an "assistant". It's a slippery slope. Yes, our mandate is also to respect dignity and enforce international law, but it's not to impose Canadian laws upon the Afghan populace.

So, is there an "age of consent" in Afghanistan? If so, what is that age? A "boy" over that age selling himself to an adult male may very well disgust us and not be typical of Canadian ethics and values but that doesn't necessarily deem that act to be contrary to "Humanitarian Law" or " International Law". I wandered through the United Nations' website but I couldn't find any recommendations they had for an acceptable age of consent other than "UN workers/forces will not engage in sexual relations with anyone under the age of 18, regardless of the age of consent in effect within that nation."

Do we therefore use age 18 as the UN standard within Afghanistan?? If so, should we be reporting 17 year olds here at home in Canada too? Even if they are consenting? Or is the answer to that "No, Canadian law says 16, so no - you don't report them?" What if Afghan Law says 12?? Is their law not just as valid as ours?

It certainly may not be as advanced as our laws here, but it's a beginning. But where to start? Do you start by reporting the 14 year old boy willfully selling himself ... or do you start by reporting the 14 year old female being forced to marry some man she's never met before first (and you do know that hubby dearest does want "baby-making" sex with her too.)?? After all, she's not given any choice in the matter and is being "forced" into her position. Isn't that, in effect, "rape unreported"?? I'd interpret the CDS' direction to include filing reports on all these "arranged marriages" as well.

Or is it simply more "acceptable" to our Canadian values than Man-love Thursdays is?

To re-itterate --- I think the practise is digusting and I would never sit back and watch a rape occur or any serious abuse without firstly attempting to do something to stop it immediately, and then to report it.

But something being disgusting to me ... isn't necessarily a crime (that's why that "age of consent" in Afghanistan is important - but I don't know what it is in Afghanistan ... anyone... Bueller???)

If the caveat is going to be "prostitution is illegal - therefore report it all" ... forced marriages are also illegal here, as is polygamy ... report it all.

A fantastic post,

However I have a few challenges.  You keep refering to Canadian Laws, and Canadian Ethics.  And that Afghanistan may have different laws and ages of consent.

Unfortunately, there are international laws, and standards.  18 is the age agreed upon, that any one under that deserves the protection of the law.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_protocols.html

Rumours, innuendos, and such may seem like a waste of time.  However, if someone heard an ANA soldier claiming he knew were there was a weapons cache would one not at leaste pass this on to their chain of  command to investigate?  Simmilarrily, if you (this is for the general readership, not you Vern ) heard someone talking about raping children, you must do your due diligence and report it.

There are international laws that we must uphold and observe.  We may not know them from memory, however being Canadian, we have grown up with morals that these laws have been generally based on.  THerfore it is easier fro us to distinguish Culture and crime.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_30160.html

dileas

tess

 

[TrexLink]

I am not condoning the act of rape but, setting that aside, am curious about a couple of things I have seen here.

In particular, can somebody shed more light on rape being considered an crime against humanity?  I can see that in a Bosnia context, where mass rape was used as a terror tactic. I am not so sure about individual acts.  Would Paul Bernardo be eligible for trial in the Hague?  I rather doubt it.

I agree with ArmyVern - the offenses of breach of command regulation would seem to relate to one's own troops, not those of an ally.

 

[armyvern]

A fantastic post,

However I have a few challenges.  You keep refering to Canadian Laws, and Canadian Ethics.  And that Afghanistan may have different laws and ages of consent.

Unfortunately, there are international laws, and standards.  18 is the age agreed upon, that any one under that deserves the protection of the law.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_protocols.html

Rumours, innuendos, and such may seem like a waste of time.  However, if someone heard an ANA soldier claiming he knew were there was a weapons cache would one not at leaste pass this on to their chain of  command to investigate?  Simmilarrily, if you (this is for the general readership, not you Vern ) heard someone talking about raping children, you must do your due diligence and report it.

There are international laws that we must uphold and observe.  We may not know them from memory, however being Canadian, we have grown up with morals that these laws have been generally based on.  THerfore it is easier fro us to distinguish Culture and crime.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/index_30160.html

dileas

tess

As stated, age 18 is the only age that I came up with on the United Nations website

But, by your own post here ...

Unfortunately, there are international laws, and standards.  18 is the age agreed upon, that any one under that deserves the protection of the law.

We here in Canada are NOT upholding and observing those international laws right here in our very own country. Our age of consent is only 16. That means we are "not reporting" international crimes/assaults right here in our very own nation each and every day!!

We may be Canadian, and we may have what "we" believe to be better/higher ethical standards and morals --- but now you are asking soldiers to hold Afghans to a HIGHER standard (age 18) than we hold even our own citizens to.

Until the other day, I was led to believe that our mission in Afghanistan was to deafeat the Taliban, aid with rebuilding, build the ANA, the police etc ... and to ASSIST the Afghan government in enforcing it's laws, it's constitution and to help them ensure their sovereignty. Today, I'm not so sure of that. Today, it seems, that because we find something offensive (sex between a 16 year old/adult that is consensual) ... that we have deemed it "required" to report this as "a crime being committed" when that very thing is legal right here in this country.

Yes, we do have an onus on us to report war crimes, crimes against humanity, rape, abuse etc ... those are crimes. I have NO issues with any of that.

Consensual sex between 2 people is not a crime when they are over the age of consent. So who's age of consent do we apply? Afghanistan's (unknown age), Canada's (16), or the UNs (18)? And if you choose the UN's ... then are we not, as duty bound by QR&O, also obligated to report those SAME crimes happening in high school parking lots each and every day in this country occuring with 16 & 17 year olds?

That's what I'm getting at. What gives us the RIGHT to tell another country what they should do with their laws? If we are going to enforce "western laws" ... then we in the west become very close to (if not actually) crossing that line of "Hi, we're from Canada and we're here to help" into a zone that I'm not sure I want to step into.

 

[tomahawk6]

We need to be sensitive to Afghan culture.

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/uk_marines_hassled_by_gays.htm

 

[The Bread Guy]

That's what I'm getting at. What gives us the RIGHT to tell another country what they should do with their laws? If we are going to enforce "western laws" ... then we in the west become very close to (if not actually) crossing that line of "Hi, we're from Canada and we're here to help" into a zone that I'm not sure I want to step into.

Agreed about forcing Western laws down people's throats....  However, is this a question of "telling a country to enforce Western laws" or is it "helping an ally find ways to increase public trust in their security forces"?  Paint me naive, but there has to be a way to get across the concept that cops or soldiers can't be abusing the trust of children without necessarily changing the consent and/or rape laws of Afghanistan.

 

[the 48th regulator]

As stated, age 18 is the only age that I came up with on the United Nations website

But, by your own post here ...

We here in Canada are NOT upholding and observing those international laws right here in our very own country. Our age of consent is only 16. That means we are "not reporting" international crimes/assaults right here in our very own nation each and every day!!

We may be Canadian, and we may have what "we" believe to be better/higher ethical standards and morals --- but now you are asking soldiers to hold Afghans to a HIGHER standard (age 18) than we hold even our own citizens to.

Until the other day, I was led to believe that our mission in Afghanistan was to deafeat the Taliban, aid with rebuilding, build the ANA, the police etc ... and to ASSIST the Afghan government in enforcing it's laws, it's constitution and to help them ensure their sovereignty. Today, I'm not so sure of that. Today, it seems, that because we find something offensive (sex between a 16 year old/adult that is consensual) ... that we have deemed it "required" to report this as "a crime being committed" when that very thing is legal right here in this country.

Yes, we do have an onus on us to report war crimes, crimes against humanity, rape, abuse etc ... those are crimes. I have NO issues with any of that.

Consensual sex between 2 people is not a crime when they are over the age of consent. So who's age of consent do we apply? Afghanistan's (unknown age), Canada's (16), or the UNs (18)? And if you choose the UN's ... then are we not, as duty bound by QR&O, also obligated to report those SAME crimes happening in high school parking lots each and every day in this country occuring with 16 & 17 year olds?

That's what I'm getting at. What gives us the RIGHT to tell another country what they should do with their laws? If we are going to enforce "western laws" ... then we in the west become very close to (if not actually) crossing that line of "Hi, we're from Canada and we're here to help" into a zone that I'm not sure I want to step into.

Again Vern,

I am not advocating the eradication of Consensual sex.

This thread is about people, specifically in Uniform, that force sexual attacks on the civillian population.  They are using their newly given authority to oppress the population, which in turn can hamper our mission.

Two ANA soldiers walking hand in hand, I could not care less.  Boys, coaxed into a police station for "Man-Boy-Love"  not on.  As I stated earlier, with the degenerate Christopher Paul Neil who loured boys to his apartment for sexual favours, he was tracked down by interpol and arrested.

The gist is, if someone of authority is forcing sexual attacks, it is our duty to have this stopped.  We are therre to help the people of Afghanistan.

milnewstbay , you nailed it

Agreed about forcing Western laws down people's throats....  However, is this a question of "telling a country to enforce Western laws" or is it "helping an ally find ways to increase public trust in their security forces"?  Paint me naive, but there has to be a way to get across the concept that cops or soldiers can't be abusing the trust of children without necessarily changing the consent and/or rape laws of Afghanistan.

dileas

tess

 

[MG34]

It isn't a case of abuse of authority, it is tradition and will continue despite what the do gooders and bleeding hearts think. The CF is under no obligation or order to interfere with the local customs and traditions, in fact we are ordered to respect them. Get off of your high horses folks there is nothing we can or should do about this it is there country and we are NOT there to impose our morals on them or we will risk losing more Afghan allies .

 

[GAP]

Hmmm....we may busy protecting our own......

Startled UK Marines Hassled By Gay Afghans
By Chris Stephen In Bagram TheScotsman.net (5-24-02) 6-4-2
Article Link

British marines returning from an operation deep in the Afghan mountains spoke last night of an alarming new threat - being propositioned by swarms of gay local farmers.

An Arbroath marine, James Fletcher, said: "They were more terrifying than the al-Qaeda. One bloke who had painted toenails was offering to paint ours. They go about hand in hand, mincing around the village."

While the marines failed to find any al-Qaeda during the seven-day Operation Condor, they were propositioned by dozens of men in villages the troops were ordered to search.

"We were pretty shocked," Marine Fletcher said. "We discovered from the Afghan soldiers we had with us that a lot of men in this country have the same philosophy as ancient Greeks: a woman for babies, a man for pleasure,."

Originally, the marines had sent patrols into several villages in the mountains near the town of Khost, hoping to catch up with al-Qaeda suspects who last week fought a four-hour gun battle with soldiers of the Australian SAS. The hardened troops, their faces covered in camouflage cream and weight down with weapons, radios and ammunition, were confronted with Afghans wanting to stroke their hair.

"It was hell," said Corporal Paul Richard, 20. "Every village we went into we got a group of men wearing make-up coming up, stroking our hair and cheeks and making kissing noises."

At one stage, troops were invited into a house and asked to dance. Citing the need to keep momentum in their search and destroy mission, the marines made their excuses and left. "They put some music on and ask us to dance. I told them where to go," said Cpl Richard. "Some of the guys turned tail and fled. It was hideous."

The Afghan hill tribes live in some of the most isolated communities in the country. "I think a lot of the problem is that they don,t have the women around a lot," said another marine, Vaz Pickles. "We only saw about two women in the whole six days. It was all very disconcerting."

A second problem the British found came minutes after the first helicopter touched down at one of the hilltop firebases, when local farmers appeared demanding compensation for goats they claimed had been blown off the mountains by the rotor blades. "Every time we landed a Chinook near a village, we got some irate bloke running up to us saying his goat has just got blown off the mountain ridge by the helicopter - and then he demanded a hundred dollars compensation," said Major Phil Joyce, commander of Whisky Company, one of four companies deployed.

As patrols moved away from the landing zones, the locals began pestering Afghan troops attached to the marines with ever more outrageous compensation demands - topping off at a demand from one village elder for $500 (£300) for damage to a tree by the downdraft from helicopters.

But the marines were under orders to win the "hearts and minds" of local farmers in what is one of the few remaining Taleban bastions. "I managed to barter him down to two marine pens, a pencil and a rubber," Major Joyce said. "He went away quite happy ."
More on link

Come to think of it, maybe it was the Taliban fighters who were crossdressing......

 

[the 48th regulator]

It isn't a case of abuse of authority, it is tradition and will continue despite what the do gooders and bleeding hearts think. The CF is under no obligation or order to interfere with the local customs and traditions, in fact we are ordered to respect them. Get off of your high horses folks there is nothing we can or should do about this it is there country and we are NOT there to impose our morals on them or we will risk losing more Afghan allies .

What is the purpose of your post, and what does it have to do with the thread?

The thread was about Children being abused, where some articles alluded that Older men take on younger ones as their plaything. There is no high horse when it is our job to stop the rape of children, as it is internationally dictated.

Should we have walked away from the gates of the extermination camps, using the same argument you are talking about?

Get up on the horse, and be proactive in stopping degenerates, abusing their new given power on the weak.  Your ignorant statement, disregards international law, and your duty to help the people of Afghanistan, by confusing the two topics.

dileas

tess

 

[The Bread Guy]

It isn't a case of abuse of authority, it is tradition and will continue despite what the do gooders and bleeding hearts think. The CF is under no obligation or order to interfere with the local customs and traditions, in fact we are ordered to respect them. Get off of your high horses folks there is nothing we can or should do about this it is there country and we are NOT there to impose our morals on them or we will risk losing more Afghan allies .

Part of past and current "customs and traditions" in AFG include corruption in the government and justice sectors - should we overlook those too?  If the media quoted him properly, our Foreign Affairs Minister doesn't think so:  ""We made clear to the president that Canadians expect that if we're going to be in Afghanistan - Canadian lives are being lost here, there's a lot of money being spent - there's got to be a sense of public confidence that the money and the lives are in pursuit of something worthy ....  And when there's a scent of corruption you get people turning off. And so, I explained to him the importance of dealing with that."

With the (generally) good back-and-forth here, I'm now able to zero in a bit more precisely:  I'm not talking about societal acceptance of pedophilia in AFG, I'm talking about specific behaviours by AFG security forces (cops or police).

Are Canadian efforts going to change morals and attitudes in AFG regarding pedophelia?  It would be nice, but it's NOT bloody likely, given the history.

Is it going to be easy to deal with pedophilic behaviour BY SECURITY FORCES in AFG?  No way.

Should we say/do nothing about this behaviour by security forces because it's hard?  No way.

Can we say, "hey, if the rest of AFG society can do it, why can't the security forces do it?"  I don't think so - as many on this board know, police and soldiers are held to a higher standard of expectation than the general public.  How can an AFG cop deal with, say, a complaint about such behaviour if he's doing it himself?  Can you say "conflict of interest" in a HUGE way?

- edit to fix dopey omission -

 

[visitor]

I  respect  you all immensely for dealing with these thorny problems. I wanted to throw in a new perspective for your opinion. Rather than  looking at  these incidents from  the point of view  of immediate  child-man consequences,  I wonder what the  longer term effect  of a no-tolerance policy for  child rape might be? Do you think that  preventing or  interrupting a rape (or any crime under the UN that may be a "tradition") or prosecuting a rapist would have a beneficial long term effect? Would the  victims  grow up trusting  Cnd soldiers and be more likely to be on "your side"  years from now when they  are adults?  Would their parents be more likely to be allies now?

 

[armyvern]

I  respect  you all immensely for dealing with these thorny problems. I wanted to throw in a new perspective for your opinion. Rather than  looking at  these incidents from   the point of view  of immediate  child-man consequences,   I wonder what the  longer term effect  of a no-tolerance policy for  child rape might be? Do you think that  preventing or  interrupting a rape (or any crime under the UN that may be a "tradition") or prosecuting a rapist would have a beneficial long term effect? Would the  victims  grow up trusting  Cnd soldiers and be more likely to be on "your side"  years from now when they  are adults?   Would their parents be more likely to be allies now?

Visitor,

Please don't misinterpret anything anyone has said in this thread; you can be rest assured that I have zero doubt that any Canadian Soldier (male or female) would immediately intervene (enact zero tolerance) if ever stumbling accross/witnessing/hearing about child-rape. There's not a doubt in my mind. Rest assured as well, that Canadian soldiers have had occasion to do exactly this before, sadly.

I'm not sure that an individual crime of rape would qualify for prosecution under UN War Crimes. That is an individual act for which an individual would be charged with a crime. If this is a "group" action, such as was witnessed in the Balkans where women/girls were rounded up and routinely utilized by forces with the consent/oversight/and support of the CoC ... it now becomes a War Crime or "Crime against humantity".

In all the "data" put forth so far in this thread via linkages etc ... there is only mention of one case of "rape" (Cpl Schouten's account). All other media have referred to boys (perhaps some "underaged") prostituting themselves to both Afghan civilians and mebers of the ANA. This does not necessarily fall under the "crimes against humanity, nor war crimes". (That does NOT mean that it is pretty by any means). Boys are selling themselves, men are buying. It's a "normal" and "culturally accepted" thing to do over there. The ANA has certainly not organized this ... it existed and was accepted long before the ANA existed and has always been part of everyday life. Ergo, it would even be hard to argue that a member of the ANA is committing a war crime just because they wear a uniform.

I would love to live in a world where things like this did not occur, where this was not deemed acceptable.

Education certainly would go a long way towards prevention --- but nothing will change until the population of Afghanistan realizes that there is just so much wrong with this practise. It's been there for hundreds of years ... it'll NOT disappear overnight - no matter how much we in the west wish it to. They, quite simple, see no wrong in their actions. And given that they see no wrong in their actions -- it may even be possible that the local populace only sees "normal & acceptable" things occuring -- and with it being "normal" for there, they probably don't see any abuse of authority occuring either.

 

[the 48th regulator]

In all the "data" put forth so far in this thread via linkages etc ... there is only mention of one case of "rape" (Cpl Schouten's account). All other media have referred to boys (perhaps some "underaged") prostituting themselves to both Afghan civilians and mebers of the ANA. This does not necessarily fall under the "crimes against humanity, nor war crimes". (That does NOT mean that it is pretty by any means). Boys are selling themselves, men are buying. It's a "normal" and "culturally accepted" thing to do over there. The ANA has certainly not organized this ... it existed and was accepted long before the ANA existed and has always been part of everyday life. Ergo, it would even be hard to argue that a member of the ANA is committing a war crime just because they wear a uniform.

I would love to live in a world where things like this did not occur, where this was not deemed acceptable.

Education certainly would go a long way towards prevention --- but nothing will change until the population of Afghanistan realizes that there is just so much wrong with this practise. It's been there for hundreds of years ... it'll NOT disappear overnight - no matter how much we in the west wish it to. They, quite simple, see no wrong in their actions. And given that they see no wrong in their actions -- it may even be possible that the local populace only sees "normal & acceptable" things occuring -- and with it being "normal" for there, they probably don't see any abuse of authority occuring either.

Sorry Vern,

You are wrong;

http://www.iccnow.org/documents/Canada.CrAgH.WcrEng.pdf

Crimes against humanity

1. For the purpose of this Statute, "crime against humanity" means any of the
following acts when committed as part of a widespread or systematic attack directed
against any civilian population, with knowledge of the attack:
(a) murder;
(b) extermination;
(c) enslavement;
(d) deportation or forcible transfer of population;
(e) imprisonment or other severe deprivation of physical liberty in violation of
fundamental rules of international law;
(f) torture;
(g) rape, sexual slavery, enforced prostitution, forced pregnancy, enforced
sterilization, or any other form of sexual violence of comparable gravity;
(h) persecution against any identifiable group or collectivity on political, racial,
national, ethnic, cultural, religious, gender as defined in paragraph 3, or other
grounds that are universally recognized as impermissible under international law,
in connection with any act referred to in this paragraph or any crime within the
jurisdiction of the Court;
(i) enforced disappearance of persons;
(j) the crime of apartheid;
(k) other inhumane acts of a similar character intentionally causing great suffering,
or serious injury to body or to mental or physical health.

www.iccnow.org/


dileas

tess

 

[Fusaki]

Education certainly would go a long way towards prevention --- but nothing will change until the population of Afghanistan realizes that there is just so much wrong with this practise. It's been there for hundreds of years ... it'll NOT disappear overnight - no matter how much we in the west wish it to. They, quite simple, see no wrong in their actions. And given that they see no wrong in their actions -- it may even be possible that the local populace only sees "normal & acceptable" things occuring -- and with it being "normal" for there, they probably don't see any abuse of authority occuring either.

Vern, I agree 100%

Under international law this weird part of Afghan culture may be illegal, but these practices will not change untill the Government of Afghanistan can provide a stable environment for the people to recieve a proper education.

Is it going to be easy to deal with pedophilic behaviour BY SECURITY FORCES in AFG?  No way.

Should we say/do nothing about this behaviour by security forces because it's hard?  No way.

Meddling in the sexual habits of the ANA is counter-productive to the long term goal. We can stop them from raping each other in front of us and encourage them to give up the practice altogether, but it is just not practical to actively seek out and charge individual ANA guys with war crimes. It would be like banging our heads against a wall to accomplish nothing more than cause animosity between our soldiers and the ANA we are supposed to be working with. If we don't accept this basic fact of Afghan culture in the short term, it will never have the chance to change in the long term.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Vern, I agree 100%

Under international law this weird part of Afghan culture may be illegal, but these practices will not change untill the Government of Afghanistan can provide a stable environment for the people to recieve a proper education.

Meddling in the sexual habits of the ANA is counter-productive to the long term goal. We can stop them from raping each other in front of us and encourage them to give up the practice altogether, but it isjust not practical to actively seek out and charge individual ANA guys with war crimes. It would be like banging our heads against a wall to accomplish nothing more than cause animosity between our soldiers and the ANA we are supposed to be working with. If we don't accept this basic fact of Afghan culture in the short term, it will never have the chance to change in the long term.

You have now totally lost me,

Why are we there again?

dileas

tess

 

[Fusaki]

You have now totally lost me,

Why are we there again?

I agree with The Ruxted Group:

Thursday, September 7. 2006- The Afghanistan Debate
http://ruxted.ca/index.php?/archives/24-The-Afghanistan-Debate.html

Canada is in Afghanistan today to -

• help Afghanistan rebuild;
• defend our national interests; and
• ensure Canadian leadership in world affairs.

 

[visitor]

Vern,  I guess I was just wondering if rather than being "culturally accepted" by ALL  are there "pockets"  in the  Afghan population that would  decry the practice of the prostitution of young boys  if they had a voice.  Their parents? the boys themselves  (if they had other ways to make $$)?, their teachers, local doctors?  It is a  complicated problem that cannot  have a military solution just as our  similar home grown issues are not solely a problem for the police. Our worst  Canadian social problems require a multi-pronged approach: with force,  with law, with education, with social support, etc.  One alone will not be as effective as everyone working together toward the same goal, understanding what each can contribute.    Does anyone know of any local Afghans, organized or not, who could address these issues, and then enlist the soldiers  to assist in  whatever approach they  advise, when the situation arises?  Is there a formalized arm of the DND  that is a link to local (Afghan)  social advocates  that can address the issues that ultimately do come back  for the soldiers to deal with anyway?