Afghan Medals Process (merged)
- Thread starter John Nayduk
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The CIB's already been done to death here:
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/43829.0.html and I've expressed my opinion on that thread.
IIRC, there was an initiative - from LFWA - to address multiple tours in the same theatre by using DEU stripes, but I don't know what happened with it.
Tour numbers on medals are a UN/NATO thing, which is why you don't see them on Canadian-only (or British, for that matter) medals. The GCS was designed to have bars representing different "combat"-type operations. The problem is that it came in after the SWASM was initiated; since the SWASM was already earmarked for OEF-type operations, the GCS was limited to ISAF.
The GCS may well be awarded for operations in a different theatre (as it was designed to be), although my guess is (and it's only a guess) that any major operation in a completely different theatre may well result in "political" pressure for a separate tour medal.
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/43829.0.html and I've expressed my opinion on that thread.
IIRC, there was an initiative - from LFWA - to address multiple tours in the same theatre by using DEU stripes, but I don't know what happened with it.
Tour numbers on medals are a UN/NATO thing, which is why you don't see them on Canadian-only (or British, for that matter) medals. The GCS was designed to have bars representing different "combat"-type operations. The problem is that it came in after the SWASM was initiated; since the SWASM was already earmarked for OEF-type operations, the GCS was limited to ISAF.
The GCS may well be awarded for operations in a different theatre (as it was designed to be), although my guess is (and it's only a guess) that any major operation in a completely different theatre may well result in "political" pressure for a separate tour medal.
Gunner
Army.ca Veteran
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The overseas stripes were an attempt by DHH to solve the multiple tour dilemma with the GCS and SWASM. It is entirely possible, as it stands now, for someone to spend 30 years in the military, go overseas a multitude of times, and retire with only 2 medals (GCS and CD). Tour numbers are only used by the UN and it carried over the FRY NATO medal until it was discontinued around ~Dec 2003 with the non-article 5 medal.
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well i herd for the group that im going with gets 3 of them i leave im feb
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Sounds like a quest for the elusive 'fruit salad'. Now if they'll only issue medals for the hellish TDs to Shilo and Wainwright I'll be happy! How about the RV and bar awards?
As I understand it, because the current Op Archer Roto is operating under the auspices of Operation Enduring Freedom, their tour will receive the SWASM.
When NATO takes over, Canadians serving in Afg will receive the Campaign Star with ISAF bar. Since there may be some overlap at the end of Roto 1 (NATO is sched to take over at the end of this month) there will likely be some Roto 1 folks who spend at least thirty days in both 'systems' and will receive both the SWASM and GCS, much like what happened when Apollo Roto 4 moved from Kabul and became Archer Roto 0 - those folks came home with both gongs.... (for what its worth)
When NATO takes over, Canadians serving in Afg will receive the Campaign Star with ISAF bar. Since there may be some overlap at the end of Roto 1 (NATO is sched to take over at the end of this month) there will likely be some Roto 1 folks who spend at least thirty days in both 'systems' and will receive both the SWASM and GCS, much like what happened when Apollo Roto 4 moved from Kabul and became Archer Roto 0 - those folks came home with both gongs.... (for what its worth)
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The soldiers in my regiment who went over for Roto 4 (Athena) recieved the GCS and the SWASM when they moved down to K-Har.
You meant Athena Roto 4 I am assuming, not Apollo.
captjtq said:
You meant Athena Roto 4 I am assuming, not Apollo.
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The GCS/GSM combination succeeds, as advertised, in providing a timely method of service recognition, especially for operations involving few CF participants. And, I would hope, it would finally replace our use of non-Canadian medals.
However, some CF operations are of a size, duration, and intensity for which the GCS/GSM should be replaced by a separate form of recognition - and Afghanistan easily falls into that category.
Why the SWASM (or some sort of revised SWACS/SWASM combination) isn't being extended for this is somewhat mystifying. I know that some will immediately state that the operations fall under different mandates - but that seems less important than indicating that someone has served in Afghanistan (or in support of the mission in Afghanistan). The basis of the bars could be the separate missions (ISAF, etc), and if a mission goes on long enough then separate bars where appropriate, perhaps something like ISAF 03-04, ISAF 05-06, rather than just counting off the number of deployments.
I would hate to return to the mess (my opinion) that the use of non-Canadian medals was for the CF in the former Yugoslavia, where there were a myriad of orgnaizations and missions, each with separate medals:
- UNPROFOR
- UNPREDEP
- UNMIBH
- UNMOP
- UNMIK
- NATO-FY
- NATO-Kosovo
- NATO-FYROM
- NATO-(Non Article 5) Balkans
- ECMMY
- ESDP
- Did I miss any?
And then, the GCS/GSM (Allied Force). A much better solution would be to replace the whole lot with a CS/SM combination with appropriate bars.
But that would be another topic. For Afghanistan, a separate CS/SM seems more than appropriate and would be be a much better solution than separate medals based on what mandate (or HQ) the mission was run by.
However, some CF operations are of a size, duration, and intensity for which the GCS/GSM should be replaced by a separate form of recognition - and Afghanistan easily falls into that category.
Why the SWASM (or some sort of revised SWACS/SWASM combination) isn't being extended for this is somewhat mystifying. I know that some will immediately state that the operations fall under different mandates - but that seems less important than indicating that someone has served in Afghanistan (or in support of the mission in Afghanistan). The basis of the bars could be the separate missions (ISAF, etc), and if a mission goes on long enough then separate bars where appropriate, perhaps something like ISAF 03-04, ISAF 05-06, rather than just counting off the number of deployments.
I would hate to return to the mess (my opinion) that the use of non-Canadian medals was for the CF in the former Yugoslavia, where there were a myriad of orgnaizations and missions, each with separate medals:
- UNPROFOR
- UNPREDEP
- UNMIBH
- UNMOP
- UNMIK
- NATO-FY
- NATO-Kosovo
- NATO-FYROM
- NATO-(Non Article 5) Balkans
- ECMMY
- ESDP
- Did I miss any?
And then, the GCS/GSM (Allied Force). A much better solution would be to replace the whole lot with a CS/SM combination with appropriate bars.
But that would be another topic. For Afghanistan, a separate CS/SM seems more than appropriate and would be be a much better solution than separate medals based on what mandate (or HQ) the mission was run by.
TangoTwoBravo
Army.ca Veteran
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Few soldiers on TFA Roto 1 will get both medals (SWASM and GCS), and they will be the "nine-monthers" in the Bde HQ. I do feel for the Roto 2 guys coming in who already have a GCS from ISAF Roto 0 or 3.
The whole SWASM/GCS distinction made in 2003 made a tricky issue even trickier, while the yearly changing mission medals for FRY make comparisons silly.
Medals are funny. We say they don't mean anything to us while we are really quite passionate about them.
What are you going to do? At least you save on the miniatures. Eight bucks is eight bucks!
The whole SWASM/GCS distinction made in 2003 made a tricky issue even trickier, while the yearly changing mission medals for FRY make comparisons silly.
Medals are funny. We say they don't mean anything to us while we are really quite passionate about them.
What are you going to do? At least you save on the miniatures. Eight bucks is eight bucks!
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From an Australian prospective.
For deployment say to Iraq, one gets the AASM (Australian Active Service Medal with Iraq clasp), and the Iraq campaign medal. Thats it medal wise. Then, you get the ICB for Infantry (Infantry Combat badge), and Corps other than Infantry, say Armoured for example, you get the ACB (Army Combat Badge). The ICB and ACB look similar, and are given for the same 'close combat' conditions. They are only worn on the Army service dress uniform (Polys and and with tunic), and I do beileve a Mess Kit version is also available.
AASM - after being on the ground for 1 day or more; and
the ICM - after being on the ground for a mininum of 30 days, or total aggrigate of 30 days.
One also is presented an Active Service lapel pin which can be worn with the appropiate civvy attire.
With Australian medals, comes extra ribbon for court mounting, and a miniture medal too, all neatly in the same presentation box. So you do not purchase minitures.
Most standard tours are now a mininum of 6 months or more.
Cheers,
Wes
For deployment say to Iraq, one gets the AASM (Australian Active Service Medal with Iraq clasp), and the Iraq campaign medal. Thats it medal wise. Then, you get the ICB for Infantry (Infantry Combat badge), and Corps other than Infantry, say Armoured for example, you get the ACB (Army Combat Badge). The ICB and ACB look similar, and are given for the same 'close combat' conditions. They are only worn on the Army service dress uniform (Polys and and with tunic), and I do beileve a Mess Kit version is also available.
AASM - after being on the ground for 1 day or more; and
the ICM - after being on the ground for a mininum of 30 days, or total aggrigate of 30 days.
One also is presented an Active Service lapel pin which can be worn with the appropiate civvy attire.
With Australian medals, comes extra ribbon for court mounting, and a miniture medal too, all neatly in the same presentation box. So you do not purchase minitures.
Most standard tours are now a mininum of 6 months or more.
Cheers,
Wes
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I am reading all of your post on the medals that you will get when you go on a mission. Not sure how it all works, but reading everythings so far, it seems that most of you are very proud and look forward to having these medals.
My husband was on Roto 0, he received three medals when he arrived back home. He also got bars, and mini's. I will have to take a look back and see which ones they were, if anyone is interested. I am not sure on what guys are getting now, but interested in knowing if anyone knows.
My husband was on Roto 0, he received three medals when he arrived back home. He also got bars, and mini's. I will have to take a look back and see which ones they were, if anyone is interested. I am not sure on what guys are getting now, but interested in knowing if anyone knows.
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I'd be interested. I was on Roto 0, (are we talking Athena?) and got one.
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Three would be very unusual indeed, so I'd certainly be interested in hearing what he's wearing; the rules for Afghan medals are quite clear. SWASM for service with the "coalition", GCS for service with ISAF. Some got both because of the transition in command of the mission, some have both because of multiple tours.
Then again, as Iterator aludes to, those without previous tours moving from SFOR to EUFOR as part of Op Bronze in 2004 received three gongs for a single mission: CPSM, NATO Non-Article 5, and EUFOR. I know someone who went from one (a CD) to four in one shot... Listening to the gloating while I was in the sandbox was a bit much. :
Then again, as Iterator aludes to, those without previous tours moving from SFOR to EUFOR as part of Op Bronze in 2004 received three gongs for a single mission: CPSM, NATO Non-Article 5, and EUFOR. I know someone who went from one (a CD) to four in one shot... Listening to the gloating while I was in the sandbox was a bit much. :
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Sounds like he has both medals for Afghanistan, but I'm confused as to why he'd have the Peacekeeping medal unless he has a tour somewhere else for which he hasn't received a medal. I do know that some Navy personnel have the CPSM for service on missions in the Mediterranean...but no one gets the CPSM for Afghanistan as it isn't a "peacekeeping" mission.
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You know it's funny I was talking to Gen Leslie (no it was not a meeting it was more of a Hey how are you soldier I remember you from Afghanistan) and he asked if I saw any issues with the next Roto going to Kandahar. My reply was the mission is fine sir but those of us from Roto 0-3 already had the GCS and since no bars had thus far been authorized to go with the medal some of us would not be receiving any medals at all for Op Archer as it has now moved again from American control (SWASM) to ISAF (GCS).
He seemed honestly intrested in this saying " Finally I have something I think I should really fix". Guess we'll see what happens with it. Me I'm all for just keeping the SWASM for service in Kandahar.
He seemed honestly intrested in this saying " Finally I have something I think I should really fix". Guess we'll see what happens with it. Me I'm all for just keeping the SWASM for service in Kandahar.
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CFSOW said:
I'm also unsure as to why he was presented the CPSM (Peacekeeping) medal for Op Apollo/Athena. Clearly, both these Ops are noted on the DHH web-site (attached below) as inelligable for awarding of CPSM. So if indeed he was presented it due to either of the above Ops, he is still, by regulation, unentitled to wear it. ???
http://www.forces.gc.ca/dhh/downloads/honours/cpsm_noneligible.pdf
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