Afghan man faces death penalty for converting to Christianity

[Sheerin]

Its not like this is the first time we've aided a government that doesn't exactly believe the same things we do.  Saudi Arabia has done much worse, and yet we particpated in Desert Storm. 

And really, its not like Christianity hasn't commited its own acts of barbarism over the years........  not, of course, that that is a defence for what may happen in Afghanistan.

Though it should be noted that there is already a discussion going in the Politics area

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/41171.0.html

 

[the 48th regulator]

And really, its not like Christianity hasn't commited its own acts of barbarism over the years........  not, of course, that that is a defence for what may happen in Afghanistan.

The religious culture in Afghanistan I think frowns heavily on people doing that, and although I do not support what they do, I understand that what we believe to be important, may not be in another Country.

I think there may be some other issues going on here that we may not be aware of. (he may have severely offended some part of the Islamic faith - other than changing religion) which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) could be a very bad crime.

Interesting concept, a man converts to another religion, his country declares him a heretic and decides to kill him, and we should say hey, that's ok this is the culture of the land???  What if this were the way of Europe in 1943, and our regimental brother came upon the local Fascists executing the local populace due to their beliefs...

Giver your heads a shake lads, and stop trying to type to sound  intelligent with some p.c poopoo for the sake of a post count...

dileas

tess

 

[Brad Sallows]

>The religious culture in Afghanistan

...is Islamic.

>I think there may be some other issues going on here that we may not be aware of. (he may have severely offended some part of the Islamic faith - other than changing religion) which I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) could be a very bad crime.

There are no other issues.  Apostasy is a crime in Islam, punishable by death.  It's that simple.  Where Islam sets foot - whether in a land or a soul - it is not supposed to retreat.  Until the core doctrine is changed or reinterpreted - both of which are impermissible by definition of the religion - it is designed to gradually absorb everyone.  Any attempt to roll back the frontiers of the religion - again, in either the spatial or spiritual sense - is a declaration of war against the religion, in the view of its purest adherents.

Anyone who wishes to sustain and promote non-Islamic values must quarantine Islam.

 

[Trinity]

I believe the man was Christian for 17 years before this happened while living there.
And he wasn't prosecuted until his family turned him in?


17 YEARS....  I disagree with you. Something else is behind this.  This is not simply
just a witch hunt of one Christian otherwise he'd have been on trial long before now.

Your impression of Islam is very frightening

Where Islam sets foot - whether in a land or a soul - it is not supposed to retreat.  Until the core doctrine is changed or reinterpreted - both of which are impermissible by definition of the religion - it is designed to gradually absorb everyone.  Any attempt to roll back the frontiers of the religion - again, in either the spatial or spiritual sense - is a declaration of war against the religion, in the view of its purest adherents.

Anyone who wishes to sustain and promote non-Islamic values must quarantine Islam.

This is a very loaded statement.  I would almost say inflammatory.  However, in era of learning, can you provide
source for this information because I could find a few Iman's who would disagree.

 

[Edward Campbell]

I am probably out of my lane here, pretty close anyway, but I think Brad Sallows’ point is accurate: apostasy is a capital offence and Islam is an expansionist religion – but so is Christianity, isn’t it?

If we are, really, trying to make Afghanistan into some sort functioning democracy and into a stable, sovereign state then we must be prepared for the Afghans (and the Iraqis, too) to decide, for themselves, that they want some sort of theocratic government.  If they do decide that, for themselves, in something like a reasonably fair democratic process, then who are we to deny them? 

Shall we go to war or cease trading or break off relations with every state that executes people for ‘crimes’?  Several functioning liberal and conservative democracies have decided, for themselves, that capital punishment is appropriate for a certain range of crimes.  That may outrage some Canadians but it is most certainly not the business of the Government of Canada; we may, some would say should (although I would disagree) protest, officially if e.g Singapore decided to hang a Canadian for smuggling drugs – see: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,17444742-26618,00.html and http://www.singapore-window.org/sw02/020412re.htm .  Shall we scrap the NAFTA because the US executes mentally defective people for crimes they committed when they were (legally) children?

Why should we apply a double standard to Afghanistan?  Does the fact that we are helping Afghanistan (in large measure because it is in our self interest to do so) mean that we have a right or duty to impose our liberal and secular values on their conservative, religious society?

Maybe Islam, or at least its political/cultural baggage, IS a problem; maybe Sam Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations is between Islam as a political/cultural system and the Western (Euro-American, Judeo-Christian, whatever) secular, mostly liberal, democratic system.

 

[bilton090]

KABUL, Afghanistan — An Afghan man who allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death, a judge said Sunday.

The defendant, Abdul Rahman, was arrested last month after his family went to the police and accused him of becoming a Christian, Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada told the Associated Press in an interview. Such a conversion would violate the country's Islamic laws.

Rahman, who is believed to be 41, was charged with rejecting Islam when his trial started last week, the judge said.

During the hearing, the defendant allegedly confessed that he converted from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago when he was 25 and working as a medical aid worker for Afghan refugees in neighboring Pakistan, Mawlavezada said.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which states that any Muslim who rejects their religion should be sentenced to death.

"We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said. "It is an attack on Islam. ... The prosecutor is asking for the death penalty."

The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, said the case was the first of its kind in Afghanistan.

He said that he had offered to drop the charges if Rahman changed his religion back to Islam, but the defendant refused.

Mawlavezada said he would rule on the case within two months.

Afghanistan is a deeply conservative society and 99 percent of its 28 million people are Muslim. The rest are mainly Hindus.

Edited for hateful language

 

[Trinity]

I am probably out of my lane here, pretty close anyway, but I think Brad Sallows’ point is accurate: apostasy is a capital offence and Islam is an expansionist religion – but so is Christianity, isn’t it?

I agree with the apostasy point.  But it took 15 years (not 17, read in the paper) and this is the first known case.
To me, something isn't right here; its not as cut and dry we are seeing it.

Our media can be so biased when reporting to show what they want.  I read in the paper today an Iman saying
"its an insult to god to change from Islam to Christianity, so we should punish him".  The article made it seem like
all Imans and all of the Muslim culture is behind and in agreement but I highly doubt it. 

My theological background is making my spidey sense tingle on this one.  If god was insulted that this man left Islam,
I think God would have done something about it in the last 15 years and human intervention on behalf of God isn't necessary.
(but that's slightly different than my original point - i.e. there's more to this than meets the eye)

(no link to the 2nd article i quoted, it was a MSN pop-up.. sorry) :-\

 

[MountainRunner]

Case against Afghan Christian convert dismissed

CTV.ca News

"The case against a man who converted from Islam to Christianity was dismissed by an Afghan court on Sunday because of a lack of evidence."

http://sympaticomsn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060326/afghan_convert_060326

 

[bboyintown]

I consider it pure folly to hold out our rule of law (Christian influenced) to this Islamic fundamentalist country.  But maybe we should not intervene if the majority want to live the life according to an archaic set of rules.  If it works for them, and they all agree, should we stay out of it? :-\ ???
bboyintown

 

[Britney Spears]

Not a quip at this incident in particular, more of a general comment on religious rationales.

I think we spend too much time  reconcilling religious theory (Be it the Bible, Koran, or whatnot) with the actions of extremists and thugs in general. Religion by definition is an explanation to the questions that reason and science cannot answer, so why try to inject reason into religion? Religious minded folks in liberal societies (and that includes Muslims) seem to be able to handle this dichotomy fairly well. It's only extremists who need to go through these mental gymnastics to justify their atrocities in this world. Whether its executing Christians or flying planes into buildings, all their explanations boil down to "Well god told me so" at the end, so why bother arguing? It's RELIGION, you take it up on fiath, it doesn't have to make sense!

"Wrestling with pigs" and all.

 

[Bart Nikodem]

Here's what I don't get. This is an excerpt from the Afghanistan constitution:

Article Seven Ch. 1, Art. 7

The state shall abide by the UN charter, international treaties, international conventions that Afghanistan has signed, and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

(Italics added for emphasis)
Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states:

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

(Italics added for emphasis)
The constitution doesn't say every Islamic law must be adopted as Afghan law, but it does say

Article Three Ch. 1, Art. 3

In Afghanistan, no law can be contrary to the beliefs and provisions of the sacred religion of Islam.

I don't think that the absence of a law against apostasy would contravene  Article Three Ch. 1, Art. 3, but I do think having a law against apostasy definitely violates Article Seven Ch. 1, Art. 7. Now I'm no expert on Afghan Constitutional law, but I don't think the law against apostasy would survive a constitutional challenge. I wonder if Abdul Rahman or his legal team have considered this course of action.
All the best,
Bart

 

[a_majoor]

Some interesting comments from David Frum:

http://frum.nationalreview.com/

MAR. 23, 2006: WHOOPS
Yesterday, the Council on American Islamic Relations added its voice to those condemning the death sentence upon Abdul Rahman, the Afghan man who converted to Christianity. The Canadian Islamic Congress chimed in today, making a fascinating little slip along the way:

"Afghanistan is not a free country. Maintaining law and order is the responsibility of the occupation forces, who must not turn a blind eye to this kind of injustice. To allow this man to be tried and possibly executed for a non-criminal, non-blasphemous act, and then blame Islam and Muslims worldwide, is totally unacceptable."

(Italics added.)

If I read this right, one of Canada's two most visible Muslim groups is suggesting that while the death penalty for conversion from Islam is unacceptable, the death penalty for blasphemy remains good practice. Canadian cartoonists: You are warned!

and:

MAR. 22, 2006: VOICES OF TOLERANCE

D.J. McGuire of the indispensable China e-Lobby draws attention to another Muslim group that came out early for tolerance in Afghanistan: the government in exile of East Turkistan, now under Chinese rule.

"The people of East Turkistan have suffered open-air nuclear tests, razed mosques, the killing of political prisoners, and mass cultural extermination. As part of this attempt to wipe out East Turkistani culture, its religions have been bastardized by the Chinese Communist Party. Churches and mosques have been attacked, and believers of Christianity and Islam have been persecuted.

"This is why we must ask Afghanistan to end its persecution of Christians, especially, Mr. Abdul Rahman.

"Under the Constitution of East Turkistan, Christians have a right to practice their faith unfettered by government interference. Had Mr. Rahman converted to Christianity in an independent East Turkistan, he would not be suffering the burden of a trial and possible execution, for he truly committed no crime.

"The East Turkistan Government in exile hereby asks Afghanistan to end its persecution of Mr. Rahman and re-examine its commitment to 'Islamic law.' As a fellow Central Asia nation where the majority follows Islam, we wish to remind our Afghan friends that true religious faith comes from personal enlightenment, not fearful submission to earthly governments. A government that claims to speak for God is usually arrogant enough to ignore God."

 

[MountainRunner]

a_majoor:  Very interesting post from those sources.

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Anyone who wishes to sustain and promote non-Islamic values must quarantine Islam.

>This is a very loaded statement.  I would almost say inflammatory.  However, in era of learning, can you provide
source for this information because I could find a few Iman's who would disagree.

The meaning of "quarantine" I intended is "restrained" or "placed in isolation".

I assert that Islam (the religion) recognizes only one word of God (the Koran) which is itself immutable by definition (unless God revises or extends it) although subject to interpretation, and one body of law derived from that (Shari'a).  Is that in dispute in any way?  Both are, by arrogation, respectively to be held supreme above all other teachings and all other law.  There may be interpretational variations of Shari'a, but the basic point that Shari'a is pre-eminent over other law (religious or not) remains.  For any conflict of values or laws, there can not be a reconciliation of one with another unless one is subordinated (submits) to the other.  Islam, again by definition, only permits one direction of subordination.  By definition, any values and laws inconsistent with the Koran (the teachings) and Shari'a (the law) are inconsistent with Islam (the religion). 

Therefore, if one wishes merely to sustain values inconsistent with Islam (which is what I mean by non-Islamic) one must restrain Islam or isolate it.  If one wishes to promote values inconsistent with Islam, one must roll back the spiritual and physical frontiers of Islam.

This is, I believe, the essence of what is meant by the terms "dar al-Islam" and "dar al-Harb" (house of Submission and house of War as popularly translated).  I believe the common translation "house of War" to be ill-conceived.  A better rendition would be "house of Struggle", in both the spiritual and physical sense.  With regard to "loaded" or "inflammatory" statements, I have simply stated the obvious - from the Islamic viewpoint, there are only those who have submitted and those in whom the struggle for submission still rages.  Unless and until every Muslim regards the struggle as a purely spiritual one in which judgement and punishment are wholly reserved to God and the only tools of mortals should be rational persuasion of moral agents of free will, the struggle may spill over into war.  It is that collective epiphany which will (if it ever happens) mark a true Reformation of Islam which will allow it to co-exist (ie. without physical conflict) with other religious and cultural value systems in the world.

 

[SweetNavyJustice]

It looks like Mr. Rahman has been freed.

http://www.torontosun.com/News/World/2006/03/28/1509692.html

 

[aluc]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&pubid=968163964505&cid=1143633246849&col=968705899037&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492&call_pagepath=News/News

Afghanistan seeks to bar convert's departure
Italy has offered asylum to Abdul Rahman
Mar. 29, 2006. 08:16 AM

KABUL (AP) — Afghanistan's parliament demanded Wednesday that the government prevent a man who faced the death penalty for abandoning Islam for Christianity from being able to flee the country.

Abdul Rahman was released from prison Monday after a court dropped charges of apostasy against him because of a lack of evidence and suspicions he may be mentally ill. His whereabouts are unknown but he likely is still in the country.

Italy offered to grant Rahman asylum after Muslim clerics called for his death.

"We sent a letter and called the Interior Ministry and demanded they not allow Abdul Rahman to leave the country," parliamentary speaker Yunus Qanooni told reporters.

Legislators spent the day debating the issue but did not take a formal vote on it. Qanooni was, however, speaking on behalf of the entire parliament.

Earlier in Rome on Wednesday, Premier Silvio Berlusconi said Italy would be happy to give asylum to the "courageous" Afghan man who faced the death penalty for converting to Christianity.

"I say that we are very glad to be able to welcome someone who has been so courageous," Berlusconi said, when asked by Associated Press Television News about the possibility of asylum for the man.

The premier spoke ahead of a cabinet meeting in which the government was widely expected to grant asylum.


Anyone have any ideas as to why they do not want him to leave A-stan????

 

[Cloud Cover]

Anyone have any ideas as to why they do not want him to leave A-stan????

I suspect it has something to do with an axe and a tree stump.

 

[Kid_Recruit]

That is quite unfortunate, I hope he makes it out alive 

:threat: THE KID  :threat:

 

[the 48th regulator]

uhm,

"The Kid"  you know he is living in a secret villa in Italy, under 24 hour protection right?

:mg:    :fifty:

dileas

tess

 

[Kid_Recruit]

well that's not me as you can plainly see. I am Sorry for the mix up

:threat: THE KID  :threat: