Afghan Detainee Mega Thread

[Just a Guy]

It might be pretty naive of me, something I don't often admit to, but I actually beleive in our system and the truth of this matter...
Canada will learn that we are the most humane of all Military Elements serving in Afghanistan, in that we go above and beyond the call, and many instances provide a level of care and oversight they do not receive in their everyday lives...

From a perverse view I think this could actually be a good news story when the details come out....

We will be standing tall and proud throughout this (as long as we can keep the minister from talking) knowing we are represented by the finest men and women in Canada...

Lastly, and however much it pains me, the very thing we have all fought for over there is the very thing that this wacko is demonstrating. In most places of the world he would have been shot, beaten or jailed. In Canada we go to extraordinary lenghts to answer his concerns.... For those of us who have served in the Armpits of the world, which country would you rather live in ???

This doesn't mean I don't think he isn't a complete .... 'cos I do,  He's the price for the Terry Fox's we produce,  Female education, freedom of religion, flushing toilets and the best hockey teams in the world and Tim Hortons.... to name just a few


Just a Guy

 

[The Bread Guy]

Some of the latest media this AM:

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/57138/post-525886.html#msg525886

 

[The Bread Guy]

Interesting who's getting into the messaging act - shared with the usual disclaimer....

Sensitive' military police given retraining
Bruce Campion-Smith, Toronto Star, 16 Feb 07
Article link

OTTAWA–Military police officers in Kandahar were given refresher training in use-of-force techniques following a complaint that some officers treated an Afghan prisoner too harshly.

But the training was directed at the police officers who made the complaint out of concern they might be "too sensitive" in their own handling of belligerent prisoners, sources say.

Meanwhile, the Privy Council Office, essentially the Prime Minister's own department, is now handling the communications strategy on the issue of Canada's treatment of prisoners in Afghanistan, a signal that Conservatives are worried this sensitive topic could blow up on them.

The issue hit the headlines again earlier this month with the revelation that three prisoners had suffered injuries – bruises and lacerations – while in the custody of Canadian troops last April. A law professor who learned of the injuries complained to the military, saying the men may have been mistreated.

However, the military police officers involved in the transfer of one of those prisoners from a unit returning to the Kandahar base after a patrol filed their own complaint at the time.

In a written statement, the defence department concedes that a complaint was made.

"It was alleged that some military police had firmly grabbed the arms of one detainee while taking him into a military transport vehicle," reads the statement released to reporters.

Two senior members of the National Investigation Service, a special branch of the military, interviewed personnel involved in the transfer as well as other witnesses and concluded that the prisoner was handled in a "highly professional manner.

"A qualified use-of-force military police instructor who happened to be near the site of the transfer ... confirmed this," the defence department statement says.

"The military police involved in the transfer had handled the detainee consistent with laws, regulations and orders," read the written response.

However, sources confirm that some military police officers who thought the prisoner had been handled roughly got "refresher" training following the incident.

"It was thought they might be too sensitive in their expectations for how to deal with non-compliant training," one government source said.

For its part, the defence department is keen to keep a lid on the topic with the Privy Council Office quietly steering the communications strategy behind the scenes.

 

[BernDawg]

Well, once you start digging.....
I notice we haven't hear much from the Prof lately

 

[tank recce]

Did I read that right?

These guys are getting refresher training - not because they abused anybody - but because Higher's afraid they'll be too GENTLE?! :rofl:

 

[Bigmac]

Amnesty slams Canada over Afghan detainees Rights groups seek to argue before court that transfer of captives violates law

PAUL KORING

Canada's practice of turning detainees over to Afghan security forces, widely accused of torture and abuse, violates international law and the Charter of Rights, Amnesty International and the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association say.

The two groups will today file an application in Federal Court in Ottawa seeking judicial review of the military's controversial policy. Named as respondents in the action are Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor, General Rick Hillier, Canada's Chief of the Defence Staff, and Attorney-General Robert Nicholson.

The legal action will be announced today by Alex Neve, Amnesty International Canada's Secretary-General, and Shirley Heafey, a B.C. Civil Liberties Association board member.

"There's a very strong chance of it winding up in the Supreme Court," said Paul Champ, who is acting on behalf of Amnesty and the BCCLA.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070221.AMNESTY21/TPStory/TPInternational/Asia/

      Here we go, the battle in court begins. Put your helmets on! :warstory:

 

[niner domestic]

So AI and the BCCL would rather tie up a Canadian court with an action (a JR) and crow proudly that it will end up in the Supreme Court (at a rather hefty cost) than donate the fees that would be spent on such a case to the Afghan orgs so they can address the human rights violations in their own country.  Wow, the apparently hypocrisy is stunning that these groups can sit in their positions of social and economic privilege and use up valuable court docket time to chase their windmills.  If it were me, I'd rather be sending the legal and human rights gurus *TO* A'stan to work with the country to resolve their issues not use a foreign state to decide or legislate Afghan law. 

I take particular issue with a group that claims to be using the court system to forward decide a case.  By that I mean that no one should begin a case with the presumption that the rulings with be appealed to a court of higher competence.  No judge makes their ruling based on the assumption that they will be appealed, no lawyer should be doing the same. To make such a premature statement, is preempting a ruling that may not have ground to appeal - no errors in law, fact or that the ruling was patently unreasonable.  I can only hope that they will be foolish enough to lead those comments in their evidence that they have to produce in 30 days and that the presiding justice has an obiter dictum about using the courts that way.  (any side bets that eye witnesses won't be on the list of evidence?)


Attaran is also connected to AI, so why doesn't this development surprise me? He's not happy to wait for the inquiries he forced to respond. 

 

[Babbling Brooks]

So AI and the BCCL would rather tie up a Canadian court with an action (a JR) and crow proudly that it will end up in the Supreme Court (at a rather hefty cost) than donate the fees that would be spent on such a case to the Afghan orgs so they can address the human rights violations in their own country.  Wow, the apparently hypocrisy is stunning that these groups can sit in their positions of social and economic privilege and use up valuable court docket time to chase their windmills.  If it were me, I'd rather be sending the legal and human rights gurus *TO* A'stan to work with the country to resolve their issues not use a foreign state to decide or legislate Afghan law.

Niner Domestic, you are right on the money.

 

[geo]

The other point is that this fella has no interest in going to Afghanistan to debate the issue 1st hand.  The whole thing is an academic exercise for this guy.

In the end, what is he going to accomplish?

Tell Canadian troops not to take prisonners?
Tell the CF that we have to start operating a Prison for ennemy combatants?
Tell the Canadian Gov't to "get out of Afghanistan!" ?

What is he trying to say?

Really!

 

[niner domestic]

Well, I'm sure he/they would be more than happy to visit A'stan as long as it was on the taxpayer's dime.  It goes back to an earlier comment I made about these types of academics, do-gooders, wannabe legal/social superheroes never appear to put their money where their mouth is.  I have in the past asked the question of these groups, why are you not working with the current Afghan government in pressing forward to ratify their constitutional changes (to also include charters that protect against torture as the SA Government had to include in their constitution) and advocating to have them become signatories to the GC?

The silence is, and has been quite deafening. 

 

[GAP]

The CTV report....

Groups want soldiers to stop giving up detainees
Updated Wed. Feb. 21 2007 2:38 PM ET Canadian Press
Article Link

OTTAWA -- Human-rights groups are petitioning the Federal Court of Canada to stop Canadian soldiers from giving up control of enemy combatants captured during fighting in Afghanistan.

Amnesty International and the B.C. Civil Liberties Association have asked the federal government to put a stop to transfers of detainees until the court reaches a decision on the constitutionality of surrendering captives to foreign governments, especially those with questionable human-rights records.

A lawyer for the groups says Canadian troops have captured between 40 and 50 Taliban and al-Qaida fighters since they joined the war on terrorism in Afghanistan in 2002.

The groups say there is no monitoring of compliance with federal government commitments to assure that prisoners will not be tortured and that the rules of the Geneva Conventions will be respected once the detainees are turned over to Afghan authorities.

The groups say reports by the International Committee of the Red Cross on conditions faced by detainees turned over to Afghan authorities have not been made public.

Amnesty's Alex Neve says Afghanistan, with which Ottawa has a detainee-exchange agreement, is notorious for its use of torture
More on link

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Well the next time I see AI fundraisers on Robson St, I will be sure to grill them on how AI wants Canada to handle prisoners and why I should donate my money so they can take my government that I voted for to court?

 

[George Wallace]

These people must be watching too much Dr. Who.  That or they are from a parallel universe where we have taken over Afghanistan, as opposed to being 'invited' by the democratically elected Government of Afghanistan to give them aid.  If the tables were turned and we had Afghan troops here, on the invitation of our Government, would they be holding the Afghans to the same standard?  Would they be condemning the Afghans for turning over their captives to Canadian troops to be dealt with by the Canadian Government's policies?  I think not.  They would be condemning the Canadian Government for any mistreatment of captives. 

Seems these people have a warped understanding of the International Law.  I would say that they really don't have any understanding of any Law period.  They are "Lefties" who have only one agenda; that to condemn the West.  If Canadian troops, under the legal restraints of Afghan Law, Government, et al, hand over captured 'Terrorists' we are evil.  If Canadian troops keep captured Taliban or Al Queda, then we are evil.  These 'blood suckers' from the Left, are too stupid to realize that if we don't hand over these prisoners to the legal Government of the nation (Afghanistan) we are breaking International Laws and Conventions.  It may be different if we had been a 'conquering' Army, but we aren't.  Something they still haven't figured out.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Hmmm, lets go over our options,....turn them over to the Afganian Government,..bad, turn them over to the Americans,..bad...keep 'em,..bad, obviously as they keep bringing up one incident in Somalia,.....well thats it then,

Amnesty International Wants AQ/Taliban Shot On Sight
byline Monk Brucehouse

Today officials from AI demanded that Canadian soldiers reduce the strain on long suffering Taliban by shooting them on sight. More on link subsciber service

 

[3rd Herd]

A small note here, from personal observation many NDP supporters are involved with B.C. Civil Liberties Association. Social justice for one and all. I could name a few but then I would be back before his honor, but your honor "in the name of equality I just wanted to let them be equal with those that did not make it back"

 

[Yrys]

[hijack

Bruce, you know, for some people, your post may be a better insensitive to subscrive
then any contest  ;D

hijack]

 

[geo]

Hmmm, lets go over our options,....turn them over to the Afganian Government,..bad, turn them over to the Americans,..bad...keep 'em,..bad, obviously as they keep bringing up one incident in Somalia,.....well thats it then,

Amnesty International Wants AQ/Taliban Shot On Sight
byline Monk Brucehouse

Today officials from AI demanded that Canadian soldiers reduce the strain on long suffering Taliban by shooting them on sight. More on link subsciber service

I see you came to the same conclusion as I did.....
Musn't take prisonners.
Dissarm them, ask them to bring back more guns so you can dissarm them yet again, and again, and again..... we'll bankrupt Osama in short order.... That must be THE plan! :???

 

[niner domestic]

Just a reminder that if one advocates for the rights of one group then another group will suffer the imbalance of the backlash.  So with advocating for the so called prisoners of A'stan (who for the most  part are the extreme. radical, Islamic fundamentalist who would support the following punishment) and ignoring the rights of Islamic student bloggers in Egypt these organization have only created a dichotomy on who's rights will trump. 

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070222/Egypt_blogger_070222/20070222?hub=TopStories

How ever will these groups make their choices now?

 

[geo]

9D
you're thinking too much 8)

 

[MarkOttawa]

A post at The Torch (see second half):
http://toyoufromfailinghands.blogspot.com/2007/02/canadian-forces-deux-nations.html

Mark
Ottawa