Advice for women on BMQ and other courses [MERGED]

[vonGarvin]

Before this gets out of hand ("She said/he said"), here's my point of view:
(for starters, I am in the Combat Arms, have been since 1985 (reserve) and 1989 (regular force).)
I'll put it this way.  It matters not to me if my trenchmate is male or female.  What matters only is that he or she does his or her job.  Full stop.  
Now, I don't live in la-la land and I realise that men and women are viewed differently, for different reasons, in different situations.  For a female infantryman, she is often but not always looked on as "a woman" vice "a soldier".  This is not always the case, but in every case, it's not fair.  If she's a dirtbag, then she's a dirtbag.  Period.  If she's average, then she's average, not "average for a girl"
Now, keeping reality in mind, I have given "special" advice to women whom I've instructed (yes, infantry officers in training).  Keeping this generic enough, she was easily top third material on the course I was instructing.  One day after giving orders, I pulled her aside and told her that like it or not, she would be under a microscope because of her gender.  I told her that it definately was not the case with me, but that it would happen, that it would not be fair, but then again life wasn't fair.  The issue?  Her ballistic glasses were on her forehead as she gave orders.  Was it an issue?  Naturally not, however, some "men" would view that and say "Pffft: typical woman!" and unfortunately miss out on the very good set of orders she was in the process of delivering.  Yep, not fair.  Thankfully, such opinions or attitudes are less and less each and every year, but they are still out there.
My advice to her: give the bastards nothing.  She could outrun them, outjump them and outcommand them, but once she buggered up, someone, somewhere would simply go "tsk tsk.  That's what happens when you let women out of the kitchen."  She appreciated my advice and asked for more if anything "girly" came up.  Nothing ever did, and I can tell you all, hand on my heart, that no matter where she ends up as an infantry officer, that unit will indeed be blessed.
So, yes, some "men" out there will still act as though women are the "weaker" sex.  Whatever.  I say move on, find a new topic, and pass the beer, it's Friday already and I'm going home soon and my wife and are are going to celebrate the start of my leave.  W00t!

 

[HItorMiss]

Capt,

I truly respect your opinion you know I do, but you missed the issue. The debate was not, nor is it that of Grunts wethere woman can do the job in fact we have already said they sure could. The debate is now in my mind that of the issue of how it is men treat woman in situations of distress ( IE: wounded in Combat). As an aside I knew a Lt/Capt male officer who was just amazing for an officer not a Female officer but an OFFICER. I think my whole units less without her still leading troops.



EDIT: Have a few cold one's Capt they sure are tasty when you have no work the next few days

 

[vonGarvin]

EDIT: Have a few cold one's Capt they sure are tasty when you have no work the next few days

Actually, next few WEEKS

:cheers:

But, I do get the point.  My point wasn't that trainee "x" (get it?  "X" Chromosome?  HAHAHAHAHA) was good or not, but that it was unfortunate that she would be looked on as a "she" and not as an infantry officer.  Again, how men treat women.  In my case, not in distress, but in day to day relations between officers and NCMs.  That's all.

 

[Staff Weenie]

HoM - here's a question - seeing as we're nothing more than hairless apes with wickedly cool opposable thumbs.....do human males carry over a inherent behavioural disposition ('instinct' for lack of a better word) to protect females and young? I believe we do. Take a good look at how the other primates, and even other mammals behave when the herd/pack/family group is attacked or threatened. I did some research during Grad School on Biopolitics, and how we may have an evolutionary heritage that drives certain aspects of our behaviours, whether we want to admit it or not..... This may well account for the fact that while you can tell the men to treat all women fairly, under extreme duress, they will allow more of their underlying behaviours to come out. Heck, for all we know, it may be nothing more than a simple drive to protect the ability of the tribe to reproduce (don't mean to be offensive here). To me, it's not a 'bad' thing either, it is merely something to deal with.

But it all boils down to the same thing in the end - Recognize the similarities, recognize the differences, adapt, and make the mission succeed.

Capt S - you're absolutely bang on - I have one mission when I'm in the field - to ensure that our soldiers get the best damn health care possible. I really don't care about the gender, skin colour, or sexual orientation of the health care provider - as long as they are dedicated and professional live saving machines. That's it, that's all.

 

[2 Cdo]

HoM - here's a question - seeing as we're nothing more than hairless apes with wickedly cool opposable thumbs.....do human males carry over a inherent behavioural disposition ('instinct' for lack of a better word) to protect females and young? I believe we do. Take a good look at how the other primates, and even other mammals behave when the herd/pack/family group is attacked or threatened. I did some research during Grad School on Biopolitics, and how we may have an evolutionary heritage that drives certain aspects of our behaviours, whether we want to admit it or not..... This may well account for the fact that while you can tell the men to treat all women fairly, under extreme duress, they will allow more of their underlying behaviours to come out. Heck, for all we know, it may be nothing more than a simple drive to protect the ability of the tribe to reproduce (don't mean to be offensive here). To me, it's not a 'bad' thing either, it is merely something to deal with.

But it all boils down to the same thing in the end - Recognize the similarities, recognize the differences, adapt, and make the mission succeed.

Capt S - you're absolutely bang on - I have one mission when I'm in the field - to ensure that our soldiers get the best damn health care possible. I really don't care about the gender, skin colour, or sexual orientation of the health care provider - as long as they are dedicated and professional live saving machines. That's it, that's all.

You're first para is the one that people are ignoring. So far I've seen people losing their temper on this site and trying to one up each other with discussions of parenting skills. The people opposed to females in the combat arms have not once said females "couldn't do it" just that due to societal beliefs "shouldn't do it".

Vern my father taught me at a young age that there was no such thing as "mens" work versus "womens" work except in the military, specifically the combat arms. I believe him, I don't think women in the combat arms has worked out for the social engineering crowd. In my regiment we have had a grand total of maybe 20-24 women in the 20 YEARS that the infantry was forced to open up. A great social experiment that cost how many millions of dollars for approximately 1 female troop per year. We were told in 1987 that this would open the doors for females and we would become integrated along the lines of support units with the same percentage of females to males. When is this going to happen?

By the way, telling someone to get over themselves isn't very polite now isn't it! ;D You have a nice day!

 

[Strike]

do human males carry over a inherent behavioural disposition

Ah, but if we all follow nature so closely, why is it the female of the human species that feels they have to dress up, wear make-up, and all that other junk, IOT impress the male of the species?  Everywhere else it's the male that has the impressive accoutrements -- birds, lions, silverbacks, even fish!

Sorry.  If you're going to use instinct then why aren't you guys walking around in heels to show off those wonderful calves for the ladies!  (Something I'm sure a few of us would like to see, if only for a laugh  ;D)

 

[HItorMiss]

Well on a genetic level Instinct and Genetics are two different things LOL, So Humanity evolved past males showing off and it changed to the Woman, still that rarely effects instinct.

 

[Hot Lips]

This is 2007 right?

Gender bias still exists and most likely will until the end of time...we will never change every person's values and beliefs systems...

All I can say is...the best person for the job...

I don't defend my gender...I see no need to do so...and to me the forces are genderless...

It still makes me grin to see such an ongoing debate about women though...

Cheers & Beers
HL

 

[neko]

HitorMiss,
I wasn't trying to paint all men as evil nasty creatures, I don't believe that, and apologise that that is how it sounded.
I was trying to point out that not all of them are raised to treat women with respect and protect them, that there are plenty who are cruel and violent towards women. I didn't mean to say that all men are like that.

We have and are working with you on a daily basis and were all one team that does it it's job to a very high standard, You missed that Grunt never said women could not do the job, in fact he said they could. What he said was that until Men change how it is we view woman, then  said women could or might become a detriment to the team and that IS unacceptable.
 

I didn't miss his point, what I wanted to do was point out that if it is the men that are causing the problem do to their feelings towards women then don't punish the women for it.
I also wanted to address some of the guys who commented about men being raised to respect women, but then go on to say even women who can do well in the combat arms shouldn't be there because of how the men feel. Where is the respect there? Protective, maybe, but that isn't showing respect. Wanting a women to stay confined to jobs you are comfortable with her doing is more along the lines of oppressing her than protecting her. That 'you' was generic by the way, not directed at you HitorMiss.

 

[RCR Grunt]

I also wanted to address some of the guys who commented about men being raised to respect women, but then go on to say even women who can do well in the combat arms shouldn't be there because of how the men feel. Where is the respect there? Protective, maybe, but that isn't showing respect. Wanting a women to stay confined to jobs you are comfortable with her doing is more along the lines of oppressing her than protecting her. That 'you' was generic by the way, not directed at you HitorMiss.

Neko, this is being seen the wrong way.  I'm saying it from a combat leader's point of view.  There is a small piece of the team that may negatively affect the completion of a mission; therefore, this small piece must be fixed.  This is not aboout respect or equality or whatever buzz word you wanna use, its about the mission, and the completion of said mission.  If it was a weapon causing the problem, it would be removed.  In this case it is ingrained cultural traits, which cannot be removed so easily, therefore another fix is required.  I'm not saying your not a good soldier, and maybe your comrades have adapted, but how will we know until our worst nightmare comes true?  How will male soldiers react to a wounded, screaming female comrade?  Probably the way they were raised to, possibly to the detrement of the mission.  The comabt arms are not a special boys club that we have denied to women for some cave man like purpose, sometimes equality is just a bad idea.  And my opinion is that this is one of those places.

 

[Greymatters]

Well on a genetic level Instinct and Genetics are two different things LOL, So Humanity evolved past males showing off and it changed to the Woman, still that rarely effects instinct. 

Sorry, but I must disagree - both sexes prance and pose in front of the other with equal regularity.

Reference to RCR, I worked in the PPCLI when the first female recruit came through, and I had no problem working with her, and neither did a hundred other guys.  The rest of the battalion were another issue.  Too many of them, especially the older NCOs, said "women dont belong", or even worse, refered to her as a piece of ass that should be screwed instead of treated as a fellow soldier.  This attitude was immitated by many of the younger soldiers, not because they believed it, but because the older ones believed it, and the older ones believed it beacuse that was what they were taught.  I have seen the same attitudes in reserve units where many of the younger soldiers are just out of high school and bring the same high school attitude with them to the army.

The reference to 'genetics' and 'instincts' is a poor argument.  Instinctively, none of us are engineered to fly or jump through the air, yet many of us enjoy defying gravity, flying aircraft, jumping with parachutes, or bungee-jumping.  It is possible to overcome our instincts.  But it is not the protective instinct that needs to be overcome, it is the instinctive belief that women should not hunt or make war with the males.

The same with our environment.  We all grew up in and adapted to environments that give us our basics for interacting with society.  The first thing that happens when we join the CF is that those values and experiences are broken down, and all soldiers are retaught the new standards by which they are expected to live and by which they judge others.  It is not our mothers and fathers who install a prejudice against women, it is the instructor who says "Good morning, ladies!" or "You run like a girl!" or "You smell like a french *****house" or screams "What are you, SOME KIND OF PUSSY!!?", all comments that denegrate women.  These are what cause male soldiers to think that working with or around female soldiers somehow lessens their effectiveness or reduces their manhood. 

 

[RCR Grunt]

I agree with some of what you say, but I may be reading you wrong ... lets find out.  The problem lies not with the females, but with the males.  Which, if anyone cares to go back and re-read my posts, is what I have maintained all along.  The males have not adapted to the females and we are all suffering for it.  Is this an accurate interpretation of what you have posted, Grey Matter?

 

[armyvern]

And I'll wade back in once more to say that I have never said there should be lower standards of anything for women.

I have advocated that IF they CAN do the job up to par, that they deserve the opportunity to DO that job. Same for the men.

Is a fellow soldier male laying there "screaming after being injured" not going to be looked after the same as a wounded female soldier? I would hope that he would be. I highly suspect that screaming in pain when wounded is not a trait limited to the female sex. I would hope that instincts of fellow soldiers present when injuries occur is to indeed jump in there if at all possible and render aid in the hopes of saving lives. We all bleed the same, and we are all capable of screaming. I bring this point up only because it was mentioned in an earlier post.

As for the cultural argument about how some males may react to them, I can only say this:

Is it really fair to punish the women who CAN do that job because a male is not comfortable working with her?

If you do not allow them the opportunity to do this ...

you will NEVER have the opportunity to become comfortable with it ... and attitudes therefore, will never change.

There was also another comment about where are all these women at then ... now that the CF has been opened up for them. Quite simply put is that overwhelming majority of females have ZERO desire to be combat arms, so they aren't joining. The ones who are joining the combat arms, are the ones who WANT to be there; I'd think that is a good thing.

I once had a female beside me in a trench who really didn't want to be there ... it wasn't a pretty scene. When her contract was due, she simply wasn't resigned. She met all the minimum standards so was quite rightly still employed, but the CoC dealt with the attitude side of it appropriately. Because it was the attitude that effected the rest of us. She didn't want to be there, we didn't want her there, and in the end ... she wasn't. Could she do her job? Yes. Could she do it without constantly whining and bitching about it? No. And in the end it came back to bite her, deservedly, right on the ass.

But that being said, the men we were with, came to eventually appreciate myself and the other female working with them. We earned it because we soldiered and did our jobs. They respected us for that. A couple of those men are members of this site and I still communicate with them and count them amongst my best friends. We were a team and we looked out for each other, and when it comes right down to it, that's what it supposed to be all about.

 

[RCR Grunt]

Vern, you are not TCCC qualified, so you wouldnt understand what happens when a soldier is wounded, and I do not wish to go into detail about that at this time. I am qualified, and I have used it in combat.  I believe there is already a thread out there discussing that course, how it works and how it saves lives.  When I talk about all this "culture" and "instinct" crap, it is in a combat scenario, not in a training / garrison / "rear" area scenario, where a wounded screaming soldier in the middle of a firefight is a fact and a reality not just a scenario.  Do you have any experience in this?  Can you say how you would react to something like this?  If you can, them I'm sorry you went through that.  But, if you can't, I dare say that you may be "out of your lane."  When the man beside you goes down, you carry on the attack, you don't stick around to check him out or offer aid, you kill the enemy so no one else gets hit!  Can I do that if thats a female?  I don't know, and I hope I never find out.  The Israeli's tried it and it failed.  What makes us different from the Israeli's?

 

[Greymatters]

I agree with some of what you say, but I may be reading you wrong ... lets find out.  The problem lies not with the females, but with the males.  Which, if anyone cares to go back and re-read my posts, is what I have maintained all along.  The males have not adapted to the females and we are all suffering for it.  Is this an accurate interpretation of what you have posted, Grey Matter? 

In a nutshell, that is essentially it.  The working situation has changed, and it is up to us men to adapt and overcome.  A lot of the barriers that are put up are put up by ourselves.

Just for amplification, Ive had to deal with these issues working with other forces overseas.  Several comrades (in a soldierly non-communist use of the term) from other countries I worked closely with were good soldiers and worked hard at their job, but found it extremely difficult to work with women in the field, not because women couldnt do the job, but because of personal beliefs that "women shouldnt be there".  This was true not only for working with women, but also getting teams to work together when one of the soldiers was gay, or had different coloured skin, or a different nationality or a different religion.       

 

[armyvern]

Hmmm, I've only said that males and females bleed and scream the same. One does not need to be TCCC qualified to put that out in public. Nor anywhere in my post did I insinuate that you should stop the fight to render aid. Read it again. I quite clearly said if at all possible (as in ~ at the first opportunity), any good soldier knows that.

Don't presume to know my background, or to assume that I have not had the "opportunity" to be shot at, nor to deal with the effects of what a landmine can do to someone. You'd be wrong. I have been there, and I have reacted. No this didn't occur in Afghanistan if you're wondering, but another tour.

 

[time expired]

Watching this discussion going round and round in ever decreasing
circles,and having sarcastic remarks made about my Mother by some,empty-
profile 19 year old female makes me very angry.I just wish that I was a
young soldier standing across from her in a ring with a pugil stick,maybe
I would get beaten,but I doubt it as I was a killer with a pugil stick.Then
she could join the other thread,you know the one, about the poor
women abused by evil men,I am sure there is one here somewhere.
Anyway I'm outa here.
                            Regards

 

[armyvern]

Watching this discussion going round and round in ever decreasing
circles,and having sarcastic remarks made about my Mother by some,empty-
profile 19 year old female makes me very angry.I just wish that I was a
young soldier standing across from her in a ring with a pugil stick,maybe
I would get beaten,but I doubt it as I was a killer with a pugil stick.Then
she could join the other thread,you know the one, about the poor
women abused by evil men,I am sure there is one here somewhere.
Anyway I'm outa here.
                             Regards

No, I'm quite sure there's no thread on this forum about "the poor women abused by evil men." Did you read her next post? She apologized and stated that she was not meaning to intend that all men were evil abusers of women for those who took it that way. She apologized and explained herself more clearly.

No one in this thread ever claimed that you, or anyone else, was abusing women by your disagreement with them in the combat arms. I think the term used was that it was 'disrespectful' of their abilities. That's a far cry from 'abuse' and I'm really unsure where you are coming up with the basis for your statement above from.

 

[2 Cdo]

Vern, how is it disrespectful of their abilities. Most here have acknowledged that women can do the job, the argument has been should they. I hold nothing but the utmost respect for women. I came from one and I married one, and I would fight to the death for them.

 

[armyvern]

Interestingly enough, there are NO 19 year old females posting in this thread.

I do happen to have 19 years in though. Is it I to who you speak?? I don't see any sarcastic comments made by me about your mother however.

I do comments from me noting that cultural values are changing and advancing and that it was a good thing; if you happen to feel that means I am making a sarcastic comment about your mother, then I apologize to you.

I'd also encourage any posters who said my upbringing wasn't "normal" (it surely was, when I was raised to respect all people for what they do and how they do it regardless of sex, age, race etc) or that women were only in the combat arms because of "ignorance" to wade in any time to do the same.  

2 CDO,

As a female, I can assure you that if I CAN do the job just as well as the man, and I WANT to do the job, but am precluded from doing so ... then my abilities are indeed being 'disrespected.' IE: It is disrespectful to prevent someone from doing something they CAN do based on sex, race, age, religion etc rather than on performance. Because their abilities then mean nothing. That is disrespectful.

Say you're a blond, today we decide that even though you are para qualified and want to be a jumper and CAN indeed do the job, that we are just going to disqualify you from doing that because of your physical characteristic (being blond) despite the fact that you may be one of the top performers in your company. Would that sit well with you?? I doubt it. If your butt is not going to be allowed to do the job, wouldn't you rather have it be because you simply can't do the job? Or would you be OK with someone else deciding that despite your performance, a physical characteristic that does not effect you ability to perform is going to be the deciding factor?? Pretty disrespectful no?? It is when you are the one on the receiving end.