Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[childs56]

But those aren’t federal things. Murder’s going to be whoever has a major crimes or homicide unit, and that ain’t fed.

The bigger Municipal Police have the capacity to handle this. Often the RCMP will assist the smaller Municipal detachments due to resources. Overall the RCMP will be involved with aspects of the investigation from many of the other service Providers.

Street level drug crime isn’t fed either.

Never said it was, but it can be.

Stuff coming into the country? Sure.

Or may be a CBSA, US Border Services, CISIS,FBI, DEA, RCMP, Provincial, Municipal, State, County......

OMGs moving 50 kilos of coke from Montreal to Winnipeg? Potentially, though it could just as easily be a provincial drug unit in a joint force operation.

Once it crosses Provincial Borders technically it is Federal. The RCMP can provide a lot of support behind the scene if required. Things are so mired in red tape it makes one wonder. If you read individual Police Acts some Provinces state they do not have authority outside of their Province. That would make some things interesting. As in all things exceptions to the rules always apply.

Human trafficking? Usually street to mid level gang stuff; if it lands in a federal file it’ll be incidental to other, bigger stuff. Yes, contract policing has plenty of plainclothes investigative units, but that’s still provincial/municipal funding.

You appear to really not understand what you think you understand here. Nearly all of the criminal enforcement or investigation visible to the average person is not from the RCMP’s federal policing mandate, and patrol members aren’t being grabbed off the road to work those files. They might borrow some patrol members and a tactical team for a couple hours when executing a search warrant, but that’s about it, and that’s rare. From what I’ve seen several times now, the RCMP do their federal investigations very independently of their contract police work, whether provincial or municipal.

Here is a question for you. The RCMP mandate is what?

The RCMP provide a lot of overall services sourced to provide support to Provincial and Municipal Police Force as part of their federal mandate. Often that support gets murky because of continual shortage of assets both at the Federal, Provincial, Federal so one side or the other takes advantage of their use.
The RCMP brings a pretty impressive force that provides but not limited to which falls under their Federal Mandate.
They can surge Patrol and Specialties Officers from Across the Province and country if needed to provide staff to support operations domestically and internationally.

• Bc Shootings which lead to the manhunt into Northern Ont.
• Northern BC Gustafsen Lake
• Protests in Ottawa,
• G8 summit
• Air Services for special tasks for both federal and Provincial/ Municipal requirements.

are a few to name.
They also provide ERT response across the country as part of a National Program.
They provide Dispatch Services in every province as part of their Federal Mandate (some Provinces have their own fully staffed services, the RCMP still have a limited capability)
They provide SPS and NPS in support of other Police Services.
Those are at the Federal level of service. We forget these things because they get used everyday and often behind the scenes where we do not often see them.
The RCMP also can provide formal/ informal communication between Provincial and Municipal Services of other Jurisdictions.

 

[Booter]

Are you an AI chatbot?

When you are reading “individual Police Acts some Provinces state they do not have authority outside of their Province” they aren’t limiting their own authorities they are giving themselves authority as far as they are able to for their provincial legislation.

Like the Ontario government can’t give itself provincial authority in Manitoba for provincial legislation.

You’re reading this stuff backwards. They don’t state that they don’t have authority- they give as much authority as they can.

You again are misunderstanding that “federal policing services” is a very specific thing and not something that means anything you decide is “federal” because of what you understand the word to mean. You’re inventing things because you’re conflating the program which is very specific with whatever you decide is a “federal level of service”

Like almost all the things you keep pointing out that the RCMP supports other forces with are provincially funded teams and positions. Those aren’t federal positions. Which is the whole thing that was being discussed. Not this misunderstanding of what support services are, and who funds them, versus federal policing positions/mandate

 

[brihard]

The bigger Municipal Police have the capacity to handle this. Often the RCMP will assist the smaller Municipal detachments due to resources. Overall the RCMP will be involved with aspects of the investigation from many of the other service Providers.

Never said it was, but it can be.

Or may be a CBSA, US Border Services, CISIS,FBI, DEA, RCMP, Provincial, Municipal, State, County......

Once it crosses Provincial Borders technically it is Federal. The RCMP can provide a lot of support behind the scene if required. Things are so mired in red tape it makes one wonder. If you read individual Police Acts some Provinces state they do not have authority outside of their Province. That would make some things interesting. As in all things exceptions to the rules always apply.

Here is a question for you. The RCMP mandate is what?

The RCMP provide a lot of overall services sourced to provide support to Provincial and Municipal Police Force as part of their federal mandate. Often that support gets murky because of continual shortage of assets both at the Federal, Provincial, Federal so one side or the other takes advantage of their use.
The RCMP brings a pretty impressive force that provides but not limited to which falls under their Federal Mandate.
They can surge Patrol and Specialties Officers from Across the Province and country if needed to provide staff to support operations domestically and internationally.

• Bc Shootings which lead to the manhunt into Northern Ont.
• Northern BC Gustafsen Lake
• Protests in Ottawa,
• G8 summit
• Air Services for special tasks for both federal and Provincial/ Municipal requirements.

are a few to name.
They also provide ERT response across the country as part of a National Program.
They provide Dispatch Services in every province as part of their Federal Mandate (some Provinces have their own fully staffed services, the RCMP still have a limited capability)
They provide SPS and NPS in support of other Police Services.
Those are at the Federal level of service. We forget these things because they get used everyday and often behind the scenes where we do not often see them.
The RCMP also can provide formal/ informal communication between Provincial and Municipal Services of other Jurisdictions.

You’re getting “national” and “federal” mixed up again.

You’re going down multiple tangential threads that don’t interest me. You complained earlier when I pointed out that provinces and municipalities don’t pay for federal policing positions. You thought that cost sharing for any Mounties meant that contract partners were lying for federal positions, or for contract Mounties who got stolen regularly to work federal stuff. I corrected you. Booter, who has much stronger knowledge than I on this, corrected you.

Now you’re just throwing out all kinds of facts about things the RCMP do that any cop in Canada who’s ever worked with them, or bordered/overlapped their jurisdiction knows.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make. I haven’t been for quite some time.

 

[lenaitch]

If I may hazard a guess, much of the public misunderstanding of jurisdictional law enforcement stems from watch US media, particularly its entertainment media. In Canada, the creation of criminal law -which includes crimes such as murder, B&E, narcotics, etc. - is constitutionally a federal responsibility. The enforcement of those very same laws ('administration of justice') is a provincial responsibility. Down in the States, both the creation and enforcement of criminal law is state-based. Federal law and its enforcement is completely separate. If it were not so, many 'cop procedural' shows on TV wouldn't have a plot line.

I was a police officer in Ontario, sworn provincially, and investigated all sorts of criminal offences and nary a Mountie appeared. The province further devolved public safety to the municipal level. They can choose to administer that by having their own police service or contract to someone else. If a small municipality has its own service of, say 3 members, and has a homicide, it is theirs; no other police service has a 'white knight' jurisdiction unless a Crown Attorney requests it or the SolGen orders it. Most would realize it beyond their capabilities, but I know of several incidents where that did not happen, or did not happen in a timely manner, and investigations were impaired.

Inter-provincially, there used to be a problem with members entering neighbouring provinces for enforcement purposes; primarily Quebec because of population and the fact that part of the border is a line on a map. Factors such as 'hot pursuit' or 'continuation' did not always apply. This was solved with the Interprovincial Policing Act which allows for the appointment of extra-provincial authorities for certain members. I'm not aware that the RCMP has a similar limitation as I believe all members are federally sworn.

Or may be a CBSA, US Border Services, CISIS,FBI, DEA, RCMP, Provincial, Municipal, State, County......

The CBSA has a fairly narrow mandate, CSIS doesn't enforce any laws, and no US agency has jurisdiction in Canada.

They also provide ERT response across the country as part of a National Program.

Assuming you mean Tactical (different services use different names), do tell me more of this national program. Perhaps both the OPP and SQ could save some money and disband their units.

 

[Haggis]

The CBSA has a fairly narrow mandate.

CBSA's has very broad powers. Broader, in some respects, than police. Their authority can be summed up by quoting the genie from the Disney movie "Aladdin".

 

[Booter]

Assuming you mean Tactical (different services use different names), do tell me more of this national program. Perhaps both the OPP and SQ could save some money and disband their units.

It’s another place they are mistaken- it’s a nationally coordinated program from a standards perspective but generally provincially funded capacity. There are some small exceptions to this. But they are small niche capacities attached to…federal policing. I’m a little dated on this- but I’m confident it’s still the case. Edit- I just checked. It is. It’s a mix of federal funded positions and provincial ones that are managed provincially. That’s why there is such disparity between teams.

Also- they brought up the B.C. manhunt- which was only Mounties because it was going through their areas- when the tips started coming in that they were in northern Ontario- OPP had the lead on the followup.

 

[lenaitch]

CBSA's has very broad powers. Broader, in some respects, than police. Their authority can be summed up by quoting the genie from the Disney movie "Aladdin".

I didn't say they had narrow authorities, I said they had a narrow mandate. Narrow in comparison to police services who look after sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll (and pretty much everything else that nobody else wants to do).

It’s another place they are mistaken- it’s a nationally coordinated program from a standards perspective but generally provincially funded capacity. There are some small exceptions to this. But they are small niche capacities attached to…federal policing. I’m a little dated on this- but I’m confident it’s still the case. Edit- I just checked. It is. It’s a mix of federal funded positions and provincial ones that are managed provincially. That’s why there is such disparity between teams.

Also- they brought up the B.C. manhunt- which was only Mounties because it was going through their areas- when the tips started coming in that they were in northern Ontario- OPP had the lead on the followup.

I was thinking in terms of the poster saying that the RCMP provide ERT (tactical) services "across the country", which they don't in Ontario and Quebec (except in Ottawa as part of their NCR responsibilities). I have to believe that major cities in all provinces provide their own tactical response as well. I assume that poster live in a contract province and just assumes the whole country operates the same way.

The acronyms differ; in the OPP, tactical is TRU (Tactical Rescue Unit), Toronto PS is ETF (Emergency Task Force). In the OPP, ERT is a multi-disciplinary team that is used for containment, canine backup, public order, ground SAR, Etc. (probably the best thing they ever invented).

 

[brihard]

I didn't say they had narrow authorities, I said they had a narrow mandate. Narrow in comparison to police services who look after sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll (and pretty much everything else that nobody else wants to do).

I was thinking in terms of the poster saying that the RCMP provide ERT (tactical) services "across the country", which they don't in Ontario and Quebec (except in Ottawa as part of their NCR responsibilities).

RCMP have at least a couple ERTs in Ontario and at least one in Quebec. They primarily do protective and federal stuff (eg national security or major organized crime search warrants), but I’ve seen them come out to support larger coordinated raids when municipal and/or provincial police needed help, for example a simultaneous hit on a half dozen organized crime properties that exceeded the tactical capacity of the police of jurisdiction. That’s an exceptional thing though, not the norm. Normally we don’t see the Mounties’ ERT roll out unless it’s their own business.

 

[childs56]

This is a pretty good discussion. Much of what I have brought up have been questions and little info given in the places looking to switch from the RCMP to local Police force.

lets say Alberta, BC, Sk Mb and NS go to a provincial Police force. What happens to the Federally funded side of the RCMP, What happens with the provincially funded side of the RCMP?
Since much of the Federal Policing aspect of their Job is also covered by Municipal and Provincial Policing Does the RCMP still maintain a large presence in the Provinces or do they shrink down to the a few thousand specialties services mainly based out East?

 

[brihard]

lets say Alberta, BC, Sk Mb and NS go to a provincial Police force. What happens to the Federally funded side of the RCMP, What happens with the provincially funded side of the RCMP?

They carry on with no change. They do the exact same job for the same chain of command on Monday that they did on Friday.

Since much of the Federal Policing aspect of their Job is also covered by Municipal and Provincial

But it’s not. That’s what we’ve been saying. RCMP members in federal positions are doing different work from municipal/provincial police, whether it’s Calgary Police, Regina police, RCMP contract positions, what have you.

Policing Does the RCMP still maintain a large presence in the Provinces or do they shrink down to the a few thousand specialties services mainly based out East?

If tomorrow every contract policing Mountie in Alberta magically became Alberta Provincial Police, all the RCMP federal members in Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg etc.would keep doing the same stuff. They’d still be dealing with violent extremism files, you’d still see uniformed RCMP responding to border hoppers, they’d still be doing major organized crime busts, they’d still be running cybercrime units. Those wouldn’t be forced out of their existing presence in major cities in the Prairies. There might be some real estate deals to be done where federal and provincial contract mounties work out of the same building, but that’s the kind of stuff you’d see. Any RCMP member in a federal position today would stay in that position where they are tomorrow.

 

[Kat Stevens]

They carry on with no change. They do the exact same job for the same chain of command on Monday that they did on Friday.


But it’s not. That’s what we’ve been saying. RCMP members in federal positions are doing different work from municipal/provincial police, whether it’s Calgary Police, Regina police, RCMP contract positions, what have you.


If tomorrow every contract policing Mountie in Alberta magically became Alberta Provincial Police, all the RCMP federal members in Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg etc.would keep doing the same stuff. They’d still be dealing with violent extremism files, you’d still see uniformed RCMP responding to border hoppers, they’d still be doing major organized crime busts, they’d still be running cybercrime units. Those wouldn’t be forced out of their existing presence in major cities in the Prairies. There might be some real estate deals to be done where federal and provincial contract mounties work out of the same building, but that’s the kind of stuff you’d see. Any RCMP member in a federal position today would stay in that position where they are tomorrow.

Someone has to hump their luggage for them.

 

[childs56]

They carry on with no change. They do the exact same job for the same chain of command on Monday that they did on Friday.

You mean the Federal Tasked Officers not the provincial ones?

But it’s not. That’s what we’ve been saying. RCMP members in federal positions are doing different work from municipal/provincial police, whether it’s Calgary Police, Regina police, RCMP contract positions, what have you.

How active are the Federal Officers in Ontario? Are job duties crossed over between the different services (OPP, City RCMP) for similar or same investigations at the Federal level?

If tomorrow every contract policing Mountie in Alberta magically became Alberta Provincial Police, all the RCMP federal members in Calgary, Regina, Winnipeg etc.would keep doing the same stuff. They’d still be dealing with violent extremism files, you’d still see uniformed RCMP responding to border hoppers, they’d still be doing major organized crime busts, they’d still be running cybercrime units. Those wouldn’t be forced out of their existing presence in major cities in the Prairies. There might be some real estate deals to be done where federal and provincial contract mounties work out of the same building, but that’s the kind of stuff you’d see. Any RCMP member in a federal position today would stay in that position where they are tomorrow.

What happens to the 160 Officers in Red Deer if Red Deer went to Municipal Police Force,
How many would stay if the Province Went to a Provincial Police Force? 400-500?
The same question for Grande Prairie's 110 RCMP officers? 401 765

If the two largest users of RCMP Services went entirely away from the RCMP for staffing Provincial and Municipal services they have now Ab 2800ish and BC 5900ish What would be the outcome for the Staffing in those Provinces?
They have about 400 Performing Federal and other mandates in Ab and 760 in BC.

 

[brihard]

You mean the Federal Tasked Officers not the provincial ones?

Yeah, sorry. Their federal officers would keep doing the same federal stuff

How active are the Federal Officers in Ontario? Are job duties crossed over between the different services (OPP, City RCMP) for similar or same investigations at the Federal level?

I can’t really say. Even within their federal world they’ve got national security, serious organized crime, cybercrime, border integrity, and then I guess some smaller niche teams for offences you don’t hear about often but that someone, somewhere is working. They’ve also got a whole protective policing side too, which I’ve mostly heard of either in Ottawa or travelling with VIPs. So probably safe to guess busy with stuff.

What happens to the 160 Officers in Red Deer if Red Deer went to Municipal Police Force,
How many would stay if the Province Went to a Provincial Police Force? 400-500?
The same question for Grande Prairie's 110 RCMP officers? 401 765

Tough to say and interesting to think about. Probably depends on the place. If Surrey resumes its transition and the province gives the thumbs up to let Surrey Police continue, then over a few years that would be probably… 700? 800? RCMP contract positions that would be. @RedFive could speak better to that. There would be a whole big game of Musical Cop Chairs. For sure, some RCMP would choose to patch over and to their career with Surrey Police. Some already have. Others would stay with the RCMP. In the case of Surrey, I bet every Mountie could be transferred to fill an empty position in other detachments in the BC Lower Mainland, easy. Others might take it as an opportunity to request transfer elsewhere in the country.

Now, somewhere like Grande Prairie? Same idea but probably different proportions. I suspect a smaller proportion of RCMP would want to stay in Grande Prairie than in Surrey. The thing with municipal police is that’s where you’re physically staying for your career. I suspect a Mountie who’s a) willing to stay in Grande Prairie AND b) willing to patch out of the RCMP would probably be happier to apply to Calgary, Edmonton, or other Alberta municipal services in more desirable places. I think a Grande Prairie police service will be able to recruit by throwing money at applicants, but I don’t know how many RCMP they would keep from the existing detachment.

Each person would have to consider their pension implications, where they want to physically live, etc. some replacement services would have an easier time of poaching RCMP than others. Surrey or Red Deer would probably have an easier time than Prince George or Grande Prairie. A Nova Scotia Provincial Police would probably have an easier time attracting laterals than a similar Manitoba service. Each new service would have to figure out what oh and compensation and what working arrangements would suit their needs. That said, new services might also come up with more innovative staffing models that make it better to work at some of the more remote areas that the RCMP has to police and that aren’t necessarily desirable postings.

If the two largest users of RCMP Services went entirely away from the RCMP for staffing Provincial and Municipal services they have now Ab 2800ish and BC 5900ish What would be the outcome for the Staffing in those Provinces?
They have about 400 Performing Federal and other mandates in Ab and 760 in BC.

Totally speculating, but I bet that many of the RCMP working in the lower mainland of BC (metro Vancouver area) would probably want to stay there. It would be a long and gradual process, too. Any Mounties who want to stay Mountie in BC would have to try to compete for federal spot I guess? Some would go elsewhere in the country. Alberta, more spread out, but it would be a good time to be a lateral recruiter for an existing municipal service. Both provinces would probably see municipal services for larger communities, and a provincial police service for all the smaller places in between, much like Ontario and Quebec currently have.

It would be disruptive to the whole policing profession, for sure. We always see a slow churn of officers moving to different services for various reasons. Policing’s a labour market like any other, just with defined benefit pension incentives to stick it out with one employer… if tomorrow BC and Alberta announced a ten year plan to transition away from RCMP contracts, a lot of cops would have to do a lot of math. I don’t know how that would play out. But I bet in the span of my career it will probably at least start.

More than any other factor, it will come down to money. For the provinces and municipalities, money to set up and pay for a force on their own dime, and trying to chisel money from the feds to replace the subsidy anyone using RCMP currently gets. For individual police officers, it’s the pay and comp, the opportunity cost, and especially the pensions. Any new service that wants to poach members from whoever they’re replacing will need to be able to offer entry into their pension on equal terms.

 

[Booter]

The grande prairie members have staffing interviews and will be posted out over the several years it takes to transition. It’s a place people only stay for five years-ish anyways and the transition takes that long.

 

[Dana381]

How many RCMP are in Ontario outside of Otaawa? I have been living in the KW area 9 years and I can only remember seeing them once. Google showed me their Kitchener office which I'm embarrassed to say I didn't was there despite going to Princess auto dozens of times.

 

[BrianWL]

Ours is not a profession that uses NCOs as an institution very well, at least not where I’ve been. It’s generally a bottom or middle level management step that continues seamlessly through upper management officers and into the executive. An NCO corps that operates in concert with the officers, but with a different (but complementary) focus, seems to elud

How many RCMP are in Ontario outside of Otaawa? I have been living in the KW area 9 years and I can only remember seeing them once. Google showed me their Kitchener office which I'm embarrassed to say I didn't was there despite going to Princess auto dozens of times.

when I was in O division (long way back) was around 1,000 police officers (+/-) the Ontario mounties don't usually stand out much as most of their gigs are plain clothes and unmarked cars...........and they don't respond to 911 calls

 

[Haggis]

I didn't say they had narrow authorities, I said they had a narrow mandate. Narrow in comparison to police services who look after sex, drugs and rock 'n' roll (and pretty much everything else that nobody else wants to do).

That is what you said. My post was intended to illustrate CBSA`s authorities to another poster, as is the following paragraph.

The mandate of CBSA touches sex, drugs and rock and roll if there`s a border nexus. (child sex dolls, contraband ED meds, diet pills, prohibited weapons, fraudulent documents, stolen cars heading overseas, cash etc.) Anything or anyone crossing the border, in both directions, is of interest to the CBSA. They also work "ìnland", away from the border proper, doing criminal stuff, intelligence stuff and immigration stuff, most often in plainclothes, and on joint forces operations, such as this event tracing the origins of the killer's smuggled firearms.

 

[lenaitch]

How many RCMP are in Ontario outside of Otaawa? I have been living in the KW area 9 years and I can only remember seeing them once. Google showed me their Kitchener office which I'm embarrassed to say I didn't was there despite going to Princess auto dozens of times.

According to this info page, 1083 regular members as of November 2022.

About the RCMP in Ontario

www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca

The fact that you don't see them or know they are there means they are doing their jobs. As far as I know (and this may well be dated), their only uniformed/marked cruiser-type presence in Ontario (not counting Ottawa) is the Cornwall Regional Task Force, some 'joint rider' international water marine patrols and, as Brihard noted, the occasional tactical assistance..

 

[OldSolduer]

That is what you said. My post was intended to illustrate CBSA`s authorities to another poster, as is the following paragraph.

The mandate of CBSA touches sex, drugs and rock and roll if there`s a border nexus. (child sex dolls, contraband ED meds, diet pills, prohibited weapons, fraudulent documents, stolen cars heading overseas, cash etc.) Anything or anyone crossing the border, in both directions, is of interest to the CBSA. They also work "ìnland", away from the border proper, doing criminal stuff, intelligence stuff and immigration stuff, most often in plainclothes, and on joint forces operations, such as this event tracing the origins of the killer's smuggled firearms.

Not to mention one of my favorite CBSAs tasks:

The deportation of unwanted ne'er do wells from Canadian soil

 

[dapaterson]

According to this info page, 1083 regular members as of November 2022.

About the RCMP in Ontario

www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca

The fact that you don't see them or know they are there means they are doing their jobs. As far as I know (and this may well be dated), their only uniformed/marked cruiser-type presence in Ontario (not counting Ottawa) is the Cornwall Regional Task Force, some 'joint rider' international water marine patrols and, as Brihard noted, the occasional tactical assistance..

And the Musical Ride