Active Shooter In NS. April 19 2020

[RedFive]

I have to agree. The "senior management" are just that - managers and not leaders. The blame for things that go wrong only go one way - to the lowest rank on duty at the time.

I once suggested to a Staff Sergeant Major in a new member meet and greet for one of my recruits that I thought the emails signed off "Senior Management Team" struck me the wrong way as I and other members expected leadership, not management. And also that management suggested they were just barely "managing" and not decisively leading. Magically the next week, they started referring to themselves as the "Senior Leadership Team".

I can't say for sure I had any effect on that change in terminology, but I can say with absolute certainty the behaviour of that team didn't change one bit.

 

[mariomike]

The "senior management" are just that - managers and not leaders.

Which leads to the question,

Manager vs. Leader vs. Commander: What's the Difference?​

Manager vs. Leader vs. Commander: What's the Difference? - Kale Houser

How do you distinguish between a manager, leader, and commander? At first look there may not seem to be a lot of differences; however, that couldn’t be further from the truth. The differences between a manager vs. a leader vs. a commander all come down to one thing: accountability. An...

kalehouser.com

 

[Booter]

Gross. Why would you sign emails that way.

Most senior leaders I come across are barely junior leaders at best

 

[brihard]

Gross. Why would you sign emails that way.

Most senior leaders I come across are barely junior leaders at best

Ours is not a profession that uses NCOs as an institution very well, at least not where I’ve been. It’s generally a bottom or middle level management step that continues seamlessly through upper management officers and into the executive. An NCO corps that operates in concert with the officers, but with a different (but complementary) focus, seems to elude.

 

[Booter]

Ours is not a profession that uses NCOs as an institution very well, at least not where I’ve been. It’s generally a bottom or middle level management step that continues seamlessly through upper management officers and into the executive. An NCO corps that operates in concert with the officers, but with a different (but complementary) focus, seems to elude.

100%. True anywhere I’ve been as well. I don’t think I’ve described it as eloquently as that though.

 

[RedFive]

Surrey is an A/Comm, 2-3 C/Supt's. probably 6-8 Supts and more Insp than you can shake a stick at, most of whom have been in the same Detachment most if not all of their careers and need to leave.

That's why they sign their emails like that.

 

[OldSolduer]

100%. True anywhere I’ve been as well. I don’t think I’ve described it as eloquently as that though.

So from what I have seen around various detachments Corporals and Sergeants are the main supervisors. So how does this work?

 

[brihard]

Surrey is an A/Comm, 2-3 C/Supt's. probably 6-8 Supts and more Insp than you can shake a stick at, most of whom have been in the same Detachment most if not all of their careers and need to leave.

That's why they sign their emails like that.

So a municipal police service.

 

[daftandbarmy]

@daftandbarmy id say that we hit all the very specific benchmarks laid out in that article. That’s sarcasm. I think those types of articles are a good example of what’s wrong- a continuation of the incessant nattering from the government about bullying over everything else.

Meanwhile, at the London Met...

I wonder if it's something about police forces in general (and Armed Forces for that matter) that is so hard to change that it may never happen?

London’s Metropolitan Police lets predators flourish, review concludes​

London’s Metropolitan Police has allowed predatory behavior to flourish within its force and failed to adequately protect members of the public from abuse, as well as its own female staff, according to a review that accused the organization of perpetuating a misogynistic, sexist, racist and homophobic internal culture.

“The Met has not protected its female employees or members of the public from police perpetrators of domestic abuse, nor those who abuse their position for sexual purposes,” read the 363-page report by Louise Casey, published on Tuesday.

“Despite the Met saying violence against women and girls is a priority, it has been treated differently from ‘serious violence.’ In practice this has meant it has not been taken as seriously in terms of resourcing and prioritisation.”

Police Commissioner Mark Rowley said in a video statement on Tuesday that the force “fully accepts” the review’s findings and intends to act on them.

“I’m sorry we’ve let you all down, and we will fix this,” he vowed, citing a “turnaround” plan to address systemic issues within the force.
https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/uk/uk-metropolitan-police-abuse-intl/index.html
Britain’s largest police force has reeled from a series of scandals in recent years. It came under intense scrutiny after Wayne Couzens, a serving Metropolitan Police officer, was convicted of the kidnapping, rape, and murder of Sarah Everard, a 33-year-old London woman in March 2021. The killing sparked a national conversation about the stark issues with policing.

One day after Couzens was sentenced that year, another serving officer, David Carrick, was arrested, accused of rape. He had joined the ranks of Britain’s worst serial sex offenders – later pleading guilty to raping multiple women over a period of almost two decades, again reigniting calls for urgent reform.

Grappling with a growing crisis of trust, the Metropolitan Police then appointed Casey, a member of Britain’s House of Lords who has worked for years on social welfare, to lead an independent inquiry into its institutional culture and standards of behavior.

Her review began in February 2022. It paints a damning picture both of how seriously violence against women and girls is taken, and how crimes against them are investigated. “Instead of access to fast-track forensic services, officers have to contend with over-stuffed, dilapidated or broken fridges and freezers containing evidence including the rape kits of victims, and endure long waits for test results,” the review said, citing one example when in a heatwave a freezer broke down, causing all evidence to be destroyed.

London's Metropolitan Police lets predators flourish, review concludes | CNN

London's Metropolitan Police has allowed predatory behavior to flourish within its force and failed to adequately protect members of the public from abuse, as well as its own female staff, according to a review that accused the organization of perpetuating a misogynistic, sexist, racist and...

www.cnn.com

 

[Booter]

Surrey is an A/Comm, 2-3 C/Supt's. probably 6-8 Supts and more Insp than you can shake a stick at, most of whom have been in the same Detachment most if not all of their careers and need to leave.

That's why they sign their emails like that.

Right. It must be hard for them to all sit around the same keyboard so they can see the same screen to get those message out though.

 

[Booter]

So from what I have seen around various detachments Corporals and Sergeants are the main supervisors. So how does this work?

Hmm.

So the bulk of anything day to day operational will end up with an NCO from frontline policing. Even places with commissioned officers in the building will have an adjacent office for an operations NCO is there.

When I was an Army officer they discussed, and I’ll use it here and hopefully it makes sense, that major and up was concerned with Strategic- inspector positions and up are the strategic side. As a generalization.

It’s not so simple as that because there are strategic senior NCO positions and operational influencing inspector jobs- but in a general sense it’s true.

I’ve run operations and responses where a superintendent was under me, closer to the operation, than I was in an emergency by their choice- appropriateness aside.

But once you break down the HQ’s and sub HQs you have commissioned officers in those places making decisions that affect their areas in a strategic sense- without any real use for anything said from the NCOs.

So your senior NCOs are divided in two- people for whom the ranks are a pit stop as they pass into the strategic realm and long term senior NCOs that implement whatever rolls out from the HQ, in general sense, only concerned on the org chart facing down. Not truly tapped into for meaningful advice.

There are lots of groups and teams where NCOs are in theory tapped into for expertise but in my observations it’s a lip service. You’re leaving that room to Implement the decision that was made before you stepped into it.

This is kind ve why our warrant officer rank is so messed up, it’s not speaking truth to power up on behalf of the non commissioned side- it is only another extension of information down. A true warrant is a key connective tissue speaking the truth and reality of the membership to senior executives so their Perspective is heard- advocating for them, and also the discipline side of the commission level they are adjacent to.to be clear we have some great SM’s. As individuals

Rather than speak up and down- generally the SM in the RCMP only speaks down. There is a trend across the whole institution to believe you’re where you are because you’re the best at the rank previous- so the rank below you

So- where inspectors and up and designing their strategic focus their coordination in using their NCOs isn’t as a practice a consultative one. More minion than partner.

The “command team” concept is for show.

I’m really struggling to make this make sense. It’s hard to explain without sounding like I’m whining. Too much focus up- and too much mixing up strategic with “political”

 

[lenaitch]

I've made it a practice, at times, of telling my subordinates to jot down in their notebook that I've told them/authorized them to do something, and have noted it myself. It pisses me off when managers 'dump down'. A few times now I've repeated the line, familiar to most of us here, that "you can delegate responsibility but you cannot delegate accountability". I've seen a few people taken aback by that.

It's beneficial in the day-to-day working with peers and subordinates ('cause we all know those amongst us who will deny they ever said - or heard - something), but it can be crucially important in both case management and operational matters that may have a court, inquiry, complaint, etc. at the other end. It may be ultimately disclosable.

Rural vollies ( ON ) get green flashing lights for their personal cars. Our Hatzoloh also have them in the city. Their target response time is under 3 minutes, 100% of the time.

Shomrim also provides 5 - 10 minute local response.

That is department specific. Our local department, and I think many others, do not provide green lights. Besides, it has no real legal benefit (although perhaps civilly).

Many Ontario departments do pay their volunteers for duty time and training. Some provide an annual 'stipend' for volunteers with rank. Volunteer FF, medical first responders and auxiliary police are covered under WSIB in Ontario.

 

[BrianWL]

I've made it a practice, at times, of telling my subordinates to jot down in their notebook that I've told them/authorized them to do something, and have noted it myself. It pisses me off when managers 'dump down'. A few times now I've repeated the line, familiar to most of us here, that "you can delegate responsibility but you cannot delegate accountability". I've seen a few people taken aback by that.

oh that is a beauty move. can have varying effects from an infusion of common sense and all the way up to a full blown boss tantrum

 

[Halifax Tar]

Meanwhile, at the London Met...

I wonder if it's something about police forces in general (and Armed Forces for that matter) that is so hard to change that it may never happen?

I don't think it has anything to do with militaries or police forces, but it has everything to do our society as a whole.

I'm going to guess the London Met PD are just as much a reflection of the society they draw from as the CAF is.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I could conceivably see that.

I don’t see it but I’m no expert.

As much as Nova Scotia is fighting up hill with funding- there is almost no conceivable reason they would hitch their wagon to the most derelict and poor province law enforcement map- new bruinswick.

PEI is well satisfied. RNC is too historic. There is no benefit to Nova Scotia to attach itself to NB. Maybe they would consider PEI but there is no need for it on either end.

Cape Breton regional already has years where it gains ground and loses it- NB has had multiple agency rollovers in the last thirty years back and forth.

And the Atlantic police college is a
Public college that has an arrangement with police services. They are an extension of a post secondary public school,

Which if you deal with curriculums this is an important distinction. In the grand scheme it doesn’t mean much in a practical sense because they can make police officers how ever they like- Sask has a similar but slightly different system- what it does demonstrate is that the Atlantic governments aren’t even at the first step of creating larger organizations.

Sharing aircraft for several islands sounds like you need one for all the islands- so your bulk purchase savings could just be had by the provinces buying a couple aircraft together. unless you intend on having one plane for all those shorelines and communities- in that case youre redesigning shitty service.

As a born & raised Maritimer, there is ZERO chance of the Maritimes forming its own Police Force.

The three Maritime Provinces can barely collaborate as it is. The entire region is incredibly tribal and there would be no cooperation.

The various municipalities would also all fight with each other, like they do in New Brunswick, which is how you end up with Saint John, Fredericton, Moncton all trying to have "International" airports even though they are all within driving distance of each other .

Then there is the Acadian issue in NB, that would open up an entire other can of worms that isn't needed at the moment.

 

[mariomike]

I read somewhere, maybe here, that people resist change even when they are disenchanted with the status quo because they fear what unforeseen consequences change may bring along.

 

[Dana381]

I read somewhere, maybe here, that people resist change even when they are disenchanted with the status quo because they fear what unforeseen consequences change may bring along.

During my time in PEI I definitely witnessed cases of "the Devil you know is better than the Devil you don't know" I personally was passed over for a job and the person who got the job was known to be a trouble maker. My best guess as to why was my "from away" surname.

However maritime provinces feel very much misunderstood by Ottawa and the rest of Canada. I brought up the idea of a maritime police force because if Nova Scotia is at a place where continued RCMP policing Is not going to happen and they can't afford a NSPP maybe NB and PEI are upset enough to consider it.

HB, the maritime provinces do bicker but feel kinship with each other. When the premier is the same colour as the PM the province seldom does anything to spite Ottawa, however if the premier is a different colour every problem gets blamed on Ottawa. The premiers are all blue right now add Trudeau's unpopularity and the distrust of the RCMP and the right politician could make a convincing case for a regional solution.

I do agree it is a long shot idea and the inevitable pressure from Ottawa would likely kill it if ever proposed. The proposal itself could be useful to push Ottawa to increase RCMP manpower in the region.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

During my time in PEI I definitely witnessed cases of "the Devil you know is better than the Devil you don't know" I personally was passed over for a job and the person who got the job was known to be a trouble maker. My best guess as to why was my "from away" surname.

In all honesty, you're probably right.

However maritime provinces feel very much misunderstood by Ottawa and the rest of Canada. I brought up the idea of a maritime police force because if Nova Scotia is at a place where continued RCMP policing Is not going to happen and they can't afford a NSPP maybe NB and PEI are upset enough to consider it.

NB and PEI aren't NS though. The Provinces are small but have their own distinct identities, which is exactly why they wouldn't go for this.

HB, the maritime provinces do bicker but feel kinship with each other. When the premier is the same colour as the PM the province seldom does anything to spite Ottawa, however if the premier is a different colour every problem gets blamed on Ottawa. The premiers are all blue right now add Trudeau's unpopularity and the distrust of the RCMP and the right politician could make a convincing case for a regional solution.

I do agree it is a long shot idea and the inevitable pressure from Ottawa would likely kill it if ever proposed. The proposal itself could be useful to push Ottawa to increase RCMP manpower in the region.

It also wouldn't fly, constitutionally.

NB is a bilingual province, every service must be offered in both official languages. Any attempt at creating any sort of Maritime Law Enforcement Agency would run in to this wall.

Personally, I think it's a great idea but I also think all 4 Atlantic Provinces should amalgamate. I know that practically speaking, it will never happen.

 

[kratz]

Personally, I think it's a great idea but I also think all 4 Atlantic Provinces should amalgamate. I know that practically speaking, it will never happen.

If Maritime police services were to be contracted out to a private company, the same way Medavie Health Services offers paramedic services , then the bilingual requirement will be met, sidestepping that barrier to a shared service.

 

[Dana381]

In all honesty, you're probably right.

NB and PEI aren't NS though. The Provinces are small but have their own distinct identities, which is exactly why they wouldn't go for this.

When my son got sick and was flown to IWK I was quite amazed by how well the provinces worked together. The flight nurse was telling me they took patients from NB and PEI to Halifax daily. Children to IWK and adults to QE2. The cooperation was seemless.

It also wouldn't fly, constitutionally.

NB is a bilingual province, every service must be offered in both official languages. Any attempt at creating any sort of Maritime Law Enforcement Agency would run in to this wall.

PEI already offers services in both languages, I can't speak for NS. Yes a regional service would have to be bilingual but I don't see that as a huge stepping stone.

Personally, I think it's a great idea but I also think all 4 Atlantic Provinces should amalgamate. I know that practically speaking, it will never happen.

I don't think the four Atlantic provinces should amalgamate but I dont see why the three maritime provinces wouldn't be better served as one province.

With all the bad press the RCMP has gotten lately and how top heavy the organization appears there is a lot of justification here to be leveraged for a NS provincial force or a regional alternative.