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A threat to Army.ca

Edward Campbell

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I know we have a thread about human rights commissions vs. free speech, but I think this belongs here, in a new thread, as a warning about a potentially serious threat. If Douglas Christie is correct, and it is a Big IF, then our words, here on Army.ca, could expose Mike Bobbitt to years of problems and expense. 

This article is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080916.wLemire0916/BNStory/National/home
Hearing's decision could affect all media, lawyer argues

KIRK MAKIN

Globe and Mail Update
September 16, 2008 at 7:51 PM EDT

Every Internet message board in the country will have to shut down if an Ontario man – Marc Lemire – is found liable for vile comments that were posted on his website, a Canadian Human Rights tribunal was told yesterday.

“It's preposterous,” said Douglas Christie, a lawyer representing far right groups who advocate free speech. “It is the same as the chairman of a meeting being held liable for someone who shouts something out.”

Mr. Christie warned that an adverse decision will prove destructive not just to a sprinkling of characters on the “lunatic fringe,” but to a deluge of mainstream newspapers, magazines, and other institutions that have launched message boards and chat lines.

His comments came in a closing submission to tribunal commissioner Athansios Hadjis, who must decide if Mr. Lemire should be held liable for posted material that ridiculed and belittled Jews, blacks, Italians, homosexual and other groups.

Mr. Christie also warned against closing an important valve on heated expressions of dissent: “If you don't allow the ventilation and expression of extreme views, the alternative is extreme action,” he cautioned.

“This is one of the most important decisions that could ever be made by this tribunal,” Mr. Christie added. “What is at stake is control of the media of communications. The effect of this legislation is to create a political elite who can alone communicate their views – and decide who else can do so.

“We see this case as meaning either the beginning of the end of freedom in a very real way, or the end of the beginning of its preservation.”

Mr. Christie also disparaged the Canadian Human Rights Commission for the way it dismissed a recent complaint by Muslim groups against Macleans columnist Mark Steyn. The groups had used a controversial section of the Human Rights Act – s. 13 – to complain that Mr. Steyn's writing exposed Muslims to contempt or hatred.

Mr. Christie branded it a “politically convenient” decision issued by bureaucrats who had been cowed by a fierce attack mounted by main steam media over the Steyn complaint.

“It had become a political hot potato,” said Mr. Christie.

“They dismissed the complaint and waved it around, saying: ‘See? Aren't we fair?'”

In reality, he said, Mr. Steyn's writing crosses the line on virtually every yardstick the Commission and various tribunals has developed to measure unacceptable statements.

“You could hardly argue that Mark Steyn's article didn't meet the criteria, when it portrays Muslims as a menace to North America,” he said.

Mr. Christie accused the Commission of steadily throttling free speech, and said that every historical debate worth having – from the rightness of the Crusades to sacking of portions of Europe by Genghis Khan's Mongol hordes – runs the risk of offending particular races or religions.

“People with strong opinions seldom believe that they are extreme,” he said.

“What controversial statement isn't seen as vile by somebody?” said Mr. Christie, who has over the years defended a Who's Who of far right figures that includes James Keegstra, Ernest Zundel, Wolfgang Droege, John Ross Taylor and Tony McAleer. “Different religious groups are now aware that they can use this law for their own religious ends.

Mr. Christie said that the commission has crafted s.13 into an “absolute liability offence.” Simply by being associated with an offensive statement, he said, a defendant runs a strong risk of being found liable.

“It's so easy. It's a beautiful system for destroying your enemies... But the truth is more important than anyone's hurt feelings. The silence of speech is the death of reason.”

However, Mr. Christie also warned that the very groups who launch complaints to silence their critics may soon find that the tables have turned against them, should their opponents choose to adopt the same tactic.

“This law is as dangerous to them as it is to the neo-Nazis,” he said.

A lawyer for Mr. Lemire, Barbara Kulaszka, told Mr. Hadjis that s. 13 complaints make up just one per cent of the cases the Commission reviews, yet a wholly disproportionate number of them are referred to full tribunal hearings.

She also attacked the complainant in the Lemire case – Richard Warman – for allegedly making a career out of filing complaints which tie up those whose politics he dislikes in costly litigation.

Mr. Kulaszka said that Mr. Warman has targeted 26 individuals in his complaints. The second-most active complainant has only targeted four individuals, she said.

“He is overwhelmingly responsible for s.13 complaints,” she said.

Noting that Mr. Warman used to work as an investigator for the HRC, Ms. Kulaszka accused him of coaching one of his successors in how to investigate and to use material against Mr. Lemire.

“He seems to have had a tremendous influence on her,” Ms. Kulaszka said. “It's outrageous that the complainant here teaches her the very techniques she is going to use in his complaint.”

She complained that Mr. Warman didn't have to do anything more than register his complaint and testify at the hearing. “He gives his testimony and leaves,” she said. “But the defendant cannot leave if he wants to defend himself and, in the case of Mr. Lemire, have a website.”

Mr. Kulaszka also argued that the Commission failed to even make a case for Mr. Lemire being the operator of the website that contained the disputed comments.

“Without some corroborating evidence somewhere tying Mr. Lemire to this website, you should not find that he is liable under s. 13 of communicating any material,” she told Mr. Hadjis. He has no case to answer.”

She said that Mr. Lemire has always used his own name to post comments on other websites, and readily accepts his role in operating other sites that promote free expression and criticize policies such as immigration.


Mr. Christie may be off on a bit of a hyperbolic tangent but ‘guilt by association’ seems to be a major part of the current case. There are some fairly bold postings here on Army.ca – posts that likely to “offend” some people. Some of those people would, probably, like to see Army.ca closed down because it offends their world view. A single post that escaped the Mods’ eagle eyes could be the only hammer they need to nail a lid on us, here.

We have some pretty firm rules and guidelines and suggestions and policies and the like but we still seem, to me, to have too much Mod time taken up with clearing gratuitously offensive content – the sort of hing that might expose Mike Bobbitt to legal action.

I enjoy sharing ideas with all of you here on Army.ca. It would be a shame to lose this forum. But, we might lose it, if we abuse Mike’s hospitality.


 
Thanks Edward, this is a case I've been following pretty closely, for obvious reasons. I think the significant part in your note above is that Army.ca does have it's enemies, ranging from journalists and authors who feel their work is unfairly targetted here to those who have simply been banned for misbehaving. All it takes is one of those people to take a post from Army.ca to the courts and we could be in a lot of trouble. Even if the case is thrown out we simply don't have the resources to pursue sustained legal action and I can guarantee it will spell the demise of the site.

And in a more pragmatic view, my wife still feels the burn from the last legal issue brought to bear against Army.ca... she won't tolerate another! All this to say that our Achilles heel is exposed and it's up to use to make sure we don't give our enemies the ammunition they need to bring us down.

There are certainly some who feel that it's their right to say what they please here, and are riled up when a Staff edits or deletes their post. Hopefully they'll take a second look at the situation and understand the potential problems that can arise.

Thanks for your cooperation,

Mike
 
Marc Lemire's White Nationalist website and others like it could be shut down for their content and the fact that they "spread hate", etc, but the ruling would have no effect on 99% of public forums. To think that a site could be legally forced to shut down because a tiny percentage of the posts may have something that's not politically correct is just silly. The only thing I could see happening to Army.ca is that DND may want the site to change it's name to show it's clearly not an official military site.  :-\
 
Dean Thompson said:
tiny percentage of the posts may have something that's not politically correct is just silly.

Considering the attitude of HRCs in this country, it is far from silly.

Even if this site contained a large amount of posts that are not PC, it should be left alone. PC is bullshit and censorship at its best.
 
Dean Thompson said:
Marc Lemire's White Nationalist website and others like it could be shut down for their content and the fact that they "spread hate", etc, but the ruling would have no effect on 99% of public forums. To think that a site could be legally forced to shut down because a tiny percentage of the posts may have something that's not politically correct is just silly. The only thing I could see happening to Army.ca is that DND may want the site to change it's name to show it's clearly not an official military site.  :-\

Think you missed the disclaimer at the bottom of all pages here:

Unofficial site, not associated with DND.
© 1993-2008 Army.ca Technologies Inc., unless otherwise noted. All Rights Reserved
 
We should all be vigilant and perhaps let our members of parliament know that we will not tolerate changes to legislation that would affect our right to free expression, whether directly or indirectly - as this case could do.
However, I think there is enough precedent out there to have that case thrown out and to safeguard Army.ca against such claims - provided we maintain our current standards - on the grounds that Army.ca is the supplier of the medium where people express their opinion and share ideas and is not responsible for what people say; similarly to the telephone co. and sympatico, msn or yahoo.

As a member of the law enforcement community, freedom of speech and the right to privacy are sometimes a thorn on our sides but I am a firm believer on them and do admire (although, may not agree with them some times) people like Michael Geist and Sushil Gupta for their contribution on these issues:
http://www.supremecourtlaw.ca/lawletters/canadalawletters_pdfs/august2006/english/august24_06.asp#eight
http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/62/128/

cheers,
Frank
 
The disclaimer's great, but to the uninformed public searching for Canadian Army info could easily end up on here and think it's official (unless they read the tiny disclaimer). The point I was trying to make was that no matter what happens in the above mentioned court case, I think Army.ca is safe.
 
Included in that disclaimer, you might consider that the posts are the opinion of the poster only and do not reflect on the owner and moderators of the site....
 
Dean Thompson said:
Marc Lemire's White Nationalist website and others like it could be shut down for their content and the fact that they "spread hate", etc, but the ruling would have no effect on 99% of public forums. To think that a site could be legally forced to shut down because a tiny percentage of the posts may have something that's not politically correct is just silly. The only thing I could see happening to Army.ca is that DND may want the site to change it's name to show it's clearly not an official military site.  :-\

The fine print states that already.

Unofficial site, not associated with DND.
© 1993-2008 Army.ca Technologies Inc., unless otherwise noted. All Rights Reserved.
Legal Notice | Privacy
Powered by SMF 1.1.6 | SMF © 2006-2008, Simple Machines LLC


But the issues being thrown around have far more dangerous implications on ones ability to freely express themselves in a somewhat open environment. If the commission finds one site inappropriate and clamps down on it, then the precendent is set for others to be clamped down on and the domino's are set in motion. The overall use of these commissions are getting out of control and are doing just as much damage as they are trying to prevent. If enough of the commissions are in play the overall freedom we seem to think we have is going to be none. Farting in our own bathrooms will be thwarted.

And remember opinions are like a-holes everyone has one. And everyone should have the rights to use them. Choosing to ignore the A-holes is akin to your own personal commission, skip the readers post and move on. Giving into the hate mongers and recognizing them does nothing for the rest of the people around them. Ignoring them and showing thier opinions do NOT matter and don't hold sway on our way of life will do far more than trying shut them down and in effect taking away from ourselves in the process.

Cheers.
 
I think Army.ca is safe

That's great. It's not you who has to deal with legal action, financially or otherwise. I'd be confident too.
 
I'd like to point out that Marc has a very, very long, documented history as a white supremacist. This is not a one off, out of context, outlier post. I don't think the same argument could be made for Mr Bobbit, or for the army.ca community for that matter. I think we're really comparing ables to oranges. It'd be quite a stretch. If this site had a banner that stated, in large letters "Bashing the NDP Since '93" it'd be quite a different matter.

The focus of this site isn't about trashing anyone. Sure, you may find a post here and there with slanderous comments about a car manufacturer, insurance company, a particular country's foreign policy, etc, but that is not the focus of this site. It is clearly not the norm, and we all know that the staff here do spend a lot of time executing their due diligence in staying within reasonable moral, ethical, and legal bounds.
 
toughenough said:
If this site had a banner that stated, in large letters "Bashing the NDP Since '93" it'd be quite a different matter.

Why would it be different ?

I i want to say "bashing the NDP since 1993" , why couldnt I ?
 
CDN Aviator said:
Why would it be different ?

I i want to say "bashing the NDP since 1993" , why couldnt I ?

If you receive one ticket for doing 10 over, you'll still keep your license.

If you are out every day breaking every law in the Provincial Highway Act, then you deserve to have your right to a license taken away.
 
toughenough said:
If you receive one ticket for doing 10 over, you'll still keep your license.

If you are out every day breaking every law in the Provincial Highway Act, then you deserve to have your right to a license taken away.

What law would i be breaking by having a banner saying "bashing the NDP since 1993" ?

 
CDN Aviator said:
What law would i be breaking by having a banner saying "bashing the NDP since 1993" ?

The unwritten NDP law that will come into effect right after they win the next election  >:D
 
This is assuming it accompanies a long line of slanderous comments, and not just a banner...then slander/defamation, what not and so forth, depending on the comments (and I'm not claiming to be a LEO or lawyer on this).

My point is that for this individual, their entire existence for the last 15 years has been to promote racism. It's not a one time post that a radical came to his innocent site about a completely different topic and posted.
 
If that is the case, then prosecute him under the hate laws, not a HR commission....
 
toughenough said:
My point is that for this individual, their entire existence for the last 15 years has been to promote racism. It's not a one time post that a radical came to his innocent site about a completely different topic and posted.
Exactly. There's no comparing regular public forums to the extreme right wing websites/forums. It's becoming a normal procedure for government to shut down hate spreading websites, this won't be a first of any kind.
 
toughenough said:
My point is that for this individual, their entire existence for the last 15 years has been to promote racism. It's not a one time post that a radical came to his innocent site about a completely different topic and posted.

Just because he has been dong it for years, does not mater to the law.  It makes no difference weather it was 15 months or 15 years.  What they finely charge him with and make it stick, will set a presidents for other's to use to attack other sites.
 
Dean Thompson said:
Exactly. There's no comparing regular public forums to the extreme right wing websites/forums. It's becoming a normal procedure for government to shut down hate spreading websites, this won't be a first of any kind.

And it is also a habit for HRCs to take their powers and apply them unreasonably. It is not a stretch to expect them to take a case like this and blow it out of all rportions.
 
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