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A Canadian White Ensign proposal

Michael O'Leary said:
And the point I have been trying to get across, which some have wildly chosen to ignore, is that simply changing the flag (or anything else) based on some antecedent that hardly any serving member remembers firsthand may equally be seen by newer members as "change for the sake of change." They need to be sold on the idea in a current context - not because it "fixes" a tiny piece of something that happened before most of them were born.

I'm sorry but this statement could be used against you and your regiment or current members there of. Perhaps you should re-think/word it.

If we have no tie to the past where does that leave us ?

Why do the RCR still fly battle honors from a battle that has no living participants left anymore ?

Remember the the Navy didn't get the "Royal" prefix just for cocktail parties and pretty white shoes. It was a honor that was earned in blood, sweat and tears, and that honor was striped for no valid reason. It does a dishonor to those who came before us to let this go on further with out so much as a fight. Have no doubt the vast vast majority retired members of the old RCN would have no issue with the Royal coming back to our name. I would also hazard a guess that the current Naval members would either be indifferent or be supportive of the move.

Michael O'Leary said:
Change isn't bad. But change which doesn't make sense to those who experience it can turn into a bitter experience - exactly like that which so many are still rending their clothes over every time something like this comes up. It's not a Navy thing - it's an establishment thing, and if we can't break the pattern of how we engineer change, then we're not fixing anything, we're just creating the potential for a new festering problem for the next generation to fight over.

I really don't know where to begin. Your basically writing off all connection the present Navy has with its past because few of us were around for the end of the RCN ? I don't think you understand how much of what we still do is so deeply rooted in the old pre-unification Navy.

This is a Naval issue, all stop both engines.
 
medicineman said:
I think that Her Majesty might want to wait until after the election before deciding if she'll re-bestow those honourifics...they may get removed again.

MM

I think you right...And as much as I would like to see it come back I do know the chances of that are slim to none at best
 
Halifax Tar said:
This is a Naval issue, all stop both engines.

Such blind faith and narrow-mindedness is amusing, so many can't see past the fact that you want to "change a flag."

Please by all means take your proposal, which you and your fellow sailors seem intent on convincing us that EVERY sailor is eagerly waiting to see put into use and take it to Ottawa. There is obviously no need to ask for open opinions on anything to do with the process on the Internet and we can both stop wasting time here.
 
Halifax Tar said:
Why do the RCR still fly battle honors from a battle that has no living participants left anymore ?

???

Are you saying that the Navy has given up its Battle Honours ?  The logic of this line of thought escapes me. 
 
Ok after 4 pages this one is just swirling around the bowl and turning into name calling rant. LOCKED.

Normal rules, anyone can come up with a legitimate reason to reopen it contact the DS.
 
Ok there's been a couple of hours for everyone to cool down and I've received a couple of PM requests to repoen this from persons I feel would actually like to have an informed debate so I'm unlocking this one.

Myself and the other mods are watching and should this one go off the rails again it's gone.
 
I remember leaving 2 RCHA after 8 years and getting to "W" Bty where I promptly got the RCA slip-ons instead of the only ones [RCHA} I had wore,.............this really pissed me off for a grand total of 5 minutes until I realized I was still Artillery with or without a "Horse".

Maybe this explains why I can't figure out why folks wrap themselves up in knots about something stupid like names, flags, etc of your work place, and after all it's just your friggin' workplace, not your real life.

Bruce
 
George Wallace said:
Are you saying that the Navy has given up its Battle Honours ?  The logic of this line of thought escapes me.

I think the idea is that battle honours represent a connection to a past that, in many cases, no living person remembers -- just like other symbols such as the White Ensign.

However, the Canadian navy has in fact lost some battle honours: a number of years ago, as directed by someone who could politely be called a vandal, we withdrew from the Commonwealth "system" of battle honours whereby a ship named after a previous one from anywhere in the Commonwealth inherits the accompanying battle honours.  So, for example, HMCS BONAVENTURE had one from the 1600s because of a previous BONAVENTURE that served in the Royal Navy.

We no longer do this.  Only battle honours earned in Canadian service are inherited now, so some will in fact disappear as ship names are revived.  There will be some here who think that's a good thing, but the fact that we were a part of that system (and other Commonwealth navies remain so) says something about the depth of naval heritage.  It didn't all fall from the sky fully formed in 1910 -- or 1968.

Bruce Monkhouse said:
Maybe this explains why I can't figure out why folks wrap themselves up in knots about something stupid like names, flags, etc of your work place, and after all it's just your friggin' workplace, not your real life.

That's true for some; for others it really is more than just a job.
 
Halifax Tar said:
...
Remember the the Navy didn't get the "Royal" prefix just for cocktail parties and pretty white shoes. It was a honor that was earned in blood, sweat and tears, and that honor was striped for no valid reason. It does a dishonor to those who came before us to let this go on further with out so much as a fight. Have no doubt the vast vast majority retired members of the old RCN would have no issue with the Royal coming back to our name. I would also hazard a guess that the current Naval members would either be indifferent or be supportive of the move.
...


Please, and with all respect for you and your service, let’s not play fast and loose with history: the title Royal Canadian Navy was not, as Hailfax Tar suggests, “earned in blood, sweat and tears;” in fact the Canadian Naval Service (established in 1910) asked King George V for the name change in 1911 and it was granted. That’s what some (most?) army corps and regiments did, too.

But that’s just a quibble: the Royal Canadian Navy was, like the Canadian Army and the Royal Canadian Air Force, a separate, legally defined (by the Parliament of Canada) entity until 1966 when all three were, by another Act of Parliament, wiped out, so to speak, and replaced by the Canadian Armed Forces - and all serving members of the RCN, CA(R) and (M) and RCAF were, compulsorily transferred to the new CF. To resurrect the RCN would require a complete revision to the most basic parts of the National Defence Act and would, de facto, almost certainly require recreating a Canadian Army and Air Force too. This is not a minor undertaking and, I suspect it is one that has virtually no support amongst the flag and general officers in the CF today and even less amongst the senior bureaucrats and the politicians they direct advise. I doubt many members here have any idea, at all, about the enormous amount of staff work required to amend the National Defence Act. No matter how strongly retired members may feel and no matter how supportive, or at least indifferent, serving members might be, it, a proposal to recreate the Royal Canadian Navy is simply not going to get on the Department’s executive’s agenda.

Now, as a practical matter, it would take far, far less work, probably less than was required to bring back the executive curl, to change the current policies and decide to put the national flag at the bow and the Canadian Navy jack (or whatever it is properly called) at the stern and wherever else the “white ensign” goes according to Anglo-Canadian tradition.

There is another possible tack: convince LGen Leslie, the chap doing the “transformation” or whatever it is called, to recommend re-establishing three “services” within the CF: The Canadian Navy, the Canadian Army and the Canadian Army and joint commands and then, after a horrendous amount of staff work and much “buying in” by very senior people in Ottawa,  the Canadian Navy could apply to the Queen for a “royal” prefix, à la 1911.

But recreating the RCN would be neither simple nor easy.
 
Journeyman said:
I've got nothing to say in the "flag change" hand-wringing; I'm not Navy. The topic, however, morphed into a "return to Royal Canadian Navy because the Navy's been screwed over all these years" thread.

So while I've got absolutely no dog in the flag discussions, I can't help but think that returning to RCN/RCAF for whatever reason, implies a strong streak of Monarchism in the CF -- which I am not, and I do not believe is a widely held view.

We all swore allegiance to Her Majesty The Queen, end of story.
 
Halifax Tar said:
This is a Naval issue, all stop both engines.

Get Nautical said:
..., end of story.

With comments like these is seems that those who claim to represent the Navy really aren't looking for any kind of discussion at all. So, let's skip that whole "opening yourself up to debate on the Internet" thing.

Let assume:

a. That everyone agrees the Navy was damaged more than anyone else by Unification.
b. That you get consensus from the entire Internet that the flag (or whatever) has to be changed to restore honour.
c. That you even come up with a design that everyone agrees with.

Now, what happens next?

At what point does someone actually put pen to paper and write the service paper with the argument strong enough to make it through the chain of command to NDHQ with enough support to do anything?  Who is going to write it? What other actions are going to happen? Letters to the Maple Leaf, letters to the the Trident, letters to newspapers across the country - not just saying the a change is needed, but actually convincing people why?

If you think you have agreement from anyone that matters, why hasn't it happened already?

I would have expected that if someone wanted to bring the subject here, it wouldn't have been just to look for more moral support, and then to berate anyone who doesn't join the group hug over how the Navy was destroyed by Unification, but it might have been to ask for advice on how to get it done. Maybe even to post the first version of a staff paper, asking for advice on how to make it better, asking for people outside the emotional argument to point out logical holes that need to be sealed before it launches.

If the only purpose of threads like this is to continue the bitching, then it's just an electronic version of that table in the back of the Legion hall. Lots of talk with no-one actually planning to do anything about it.

 
Michael O'Leary said:
With comments like these is seems that those who claim to represent the Navy really aren't looking for any kind of discussion at all. So, let's skip that whole "opening yourself up to debate on the Internet" thing.

Let assume:

a. That everyone agrees the Navy was damaged more than anyone else by Unification.
b. That you get consensus from the entire Internet that the flag (or whatever) has to be changed to restore honour.
c. That you even come up with a design that everyone agrees with.

Now, what happens next?

At what point does someone actually put pen to paper and write the service paper with the argument strong enough to make it through the chain of command to NDHQ with enough support to do anything?  Who is going to write it? What other actions are going to happen? Letters to the Maple Leaf, letters to the the Trident, letters to newspapers across the country - not just saying the a change is needed, but actually convincing people why?

If you think you have agreement from anyone that matters, why hasn't it happened already?

I would have expected that if someone wanted to bring the subject here, it wouldn't have been just to look for more moral support, and then to berate anyone who doesn't join the group hug over how the Navy was destroyed by Unification, but it might have been to ask for advice on how to get it done. Maybe even to post the first version of a staff paper, asking for advice on how to make it better, asking for people outside the emotional argument to point out logical holes that need to be sealed before it launches.

If the only purpose of threads like this is to continue the bitching, then it's just an electronic version of that table in the back of the Legion hall. Lots of talk with no-one actually planning to do anything about it.

I fail to see how the Navy getting a new flag or whatever back is going to have an iota of impact on you MO. Or how this caused such emotion in you start using slander.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
But recreating the RCN would be neither simple nor easy.

I have no idea what that would that entail nor do I expect to see it in my life time. But I am allowed to support what I choose.

You are correct about the name being bestowed after request in 1911, but it was earned in 2 world wars and Korea.
 
"sad but true"  are you kidding me?  Maybe some people should re-examine why they signed up and swore allegiance. I think most people that are "in the mob" didn't just sign up for a job.
 
NavalMoose said:
"sad but true"  are you kidding me?  Maybe some people should re-examine why they signed up and swore allegiance. I think most people that are "in the mob" didn't just sign up for a job.

Halifax Tar said:
Why is it sad that to some this "job" is not just a paycheck ?

I think you both are misinterpreting what Bruce said.  I'm pretty sure he's saying that it's sad but true that some are of the opinion that "it's just your friggin' workplace, not your real life".
 
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"I think you both are misinterpreting what Bruce said.  I'm pretty sure he's saying that it's sad but true that some are of the opinion that "it's just your friggin' workplace, not your real life"."
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Possibly, but he also said
"Maybe this explains why I can't figure out why folks wrap themselves up in knots about something stupid like names, flags, etc of your work place, and after all it's just your friggin' workplace, not your real life."

It sounds like he doesn't care about flags or other symbols/traditions. it sounds like Bruce is the one saying "it's just your friggin workplace".....wait a minute, he did say that.

 
Woops...maybe I'm the one misinterpreting it.  You're right.
 
I could be wrong, but I think that Mr Monkhouse was actually saying that "it is just a workplace." If so I have to disagree with him, although if I have misread him I fully apologize in advance. The military is not just a workplace. History, traditions and heritage all matter as aspects of our military ethos. I grant that they need to be kept in perspective, and I have changed cap-badges on several occasions. Still, those things do matter as they help forge us into real teams.

I support the initiative to introduce a White Ensign. It was an extant practice of the RCN before unification, and it is practiced in other Commonwealth navies. Bringing it back does not come at the expense of new ships. Bringing it back does not mean that the Navy has to adopt the living conditions and organizational culture of 1960. Bringing it back does not invalidate the intervening years of history. None of the counter-arguments really make much sense to me. They all seem to argue in the extreme.

It is hard to find an army equivalent, but if unification had removed my regimental flag and we were not allowed to fly it at our regimental HQ then I am pretty sure that I would support any initiative to bring it back. I say this even though I would not have served with that flag. On the Royal issue, if my regiment had been renamed "The Canadian Dragoons" in 1968 I am pretty sure that I would support an initiative to bring back "Royal", and I am pretty sure that my colleagues that share my regimental birthday would do the same for theirs.

Having said all that, we need to extend the Navy Centennial like my daughter needs a new Jonas Brothers album.
 
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