A-10 Warthogs for the CF ??

[Yard Ape]

As for CF-18's providing ground support, I thought the air-to-mud (CAS) had been nixed from the doctrine a few years ago?

When we bought it, the CF-5 was Canada's first CAS fighter in almost half a decade.   The Air Force was happy to carry on in the roles of air supremacy (Voodoo) and Nuclear Strike (Starfighter), but the Minister of Defence decided that CAS was an important role & Canada would have that capability.   Unfortunately, he chose the CF-5 (the A-10 existed back then).   The CF-18 was bought to replace all three fighters and it was chosen because it was multi-role.   It was not a bad choice, but it was pushed by a political desire to buy American over European (the Tornado was another contender).  It would not surprise me if the airforce wanted to drop everything else and focus on developing what it did well over Kosovo, but that just means we (Army folk) have to reminde our highers of the need for CAS.  A new MND can still tell the Air Force to keep the CAS capability.

Still, the [CF-]18s will have to be replaced eventually, and it doesn't look like the incoming '22s will have much of a ground support role.   I must admit, our ground support role seems to be shrinking by the moment.  

I have not heard any talk of us getting the F-22.   However, we did invest significant $$$ to be part of the JSF development.   The JSF is the fighter the US intends to replace the A-10, Harrier, and F-16 (and probably the F-18).   This may be the way for Canada to go, but it will have a steep price tag.


8) Yard Ape

 

[condor888000]

Still, the '18s will have to be replaced eventually, and it doesn't look like the incoming '22s will have much of a ground support role.   I must admit, our ground support role seems to be shrinking by the moment.   Griffons provide nowhere near the same capability as the airframes they replaced (Chinooks, Kiowas, and Hueys).

OK, my last post was a bit off but...

The F-22's aren't meant to be much in the way of ground attack. They're meant to destroy the other guy's aircraft in the air. The new JSF or F-35 is meant to be a ground attack aircraft as well as being able to take out aircraft if necessary. They are also much cheaper and will be replacing the Harriers as the marines are starting to run out. I believe that it will also be taking over the ground attack role in the navy as well as the airforce and marines.

 

[Garbageman]

I have not heard any talk of us getting the F-22.   However, we did invest significant $$$ to be part of the JSF development.   The JSF is the fighter the US intends to replace the A-10, Harrier, and F-16 (and probably the F-18).   This may be the way for Canada to go, but it will have a steep price tag.

My apologies, I did mean the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35).  Getting my aircraft confused!  We sunk about $150-200million into the JSF already, so it looks like that's the direction we're heading.  Given the current update of the CF-18 though, it likely won't be for another 10-15 years that we order any.

 

[63 Delta]

Found an intresting link for the JSF. Looks like the Americans are going to buy over 2500 JSF. Approx cost of the JSF is around $30 Million. Thats not much more than what Canada paid for all the CF-18s they got is it? Correct me if im wrong?  :warstory:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/f-35.htm

 

[ringo_mountbatten]

The A-10 and Harrier are pipe dreams even if Canada could afford them.  Both airframes are outdated and no longer in production.  While the A-10's stored would be cheap to acquire the knowledge and technology to make them would be anything but cheap.  Either as already mentioned the CF has niche roles that it is adapting to and the A-10 certainly has no part in any of those roles. 
As for the Harrier, even if Canada does acquire an Aircraft Carrier capable of accommodating it, by the time the ship is built the new Joint Strike Fighter that is replacing the Harrier will be either in or close to service.  It also looks like the JSF is the runaway early favourite to replace the CF-18's although in the CTOL version as opposed to the STOVL version needed for Carrier ops. 
Lastly if Canada finds itself in need of an Attack helo I would argue that the last choice should be the Apache, not only due to the cost, but moreover because of it's lacklustre operational record in the four major operations it has tried to participate in over the last 15 years.  The Apache always has some malfunction when it is needed and more often than not the Marines and their Cobras come to the rescue.  Apaches are tempermental at best and a challenge to keep operational whereas the Cobra, although not perfect, has a far better track record than the Apache.  The Marines are about to receive a new version in the next couple years the AH-1Z which will address the faults of the previous AH-1W Super Cobra and vastly improve an already great airplane. 
That is just my two cents in response to what has been posted so far and all I hope is that whomever wins the upcoming election finds that no matter what foreign policy initiatives they wish to adopt they find that the world we live requires a lot more than soft power to back up the right things.

 

[30 for 30]

I'm thinking the most affordable, though not ideal, option would be to arm our Griffons. I like the Corporal's Report idea of giving Griffons a Hellfire/Stinger capability. They're clearly inadequate for transport or lift, so might as well turn them into basic attack helos? Not sure how do-able this would be. Might be a nice addition to a battlegroup.

 

[Garbageman]

I'm thinking the most affordable, though not ideal, option would be to arm our Griffons. I like the Corporal's Report idea of giving Griffons a Hellfire/Stinger capability. They're clearly inadequate for transport or lift, so might as well turn them into basic attack helos? Not sure how do-able this would be. Might be a nice addition to a battlegroup.

Missile systems need guidance systems to make them work.  Since the Griffon doesn't currently have any weapon platform (other than bolt-on C6s), this would require a big addition to the electronic systems of the aircraft.

That and money.  Lots and lots of money.  Again, something the Air Force doesn't have enough of, and has different priorities for.

 

[Fogpatrol 1.0]

The Harriers Ghost speaks of would go perfect with Steven Harpers hybrid helicopter carriers.

I think Harper plan include buying brand new f35 jsf when they become active.

Forget about F-22s, they will cost over 130 millions.

 

[Spr.Earl]

The Wart Hog is a good bang for the buck.

 

[RCD]

Why would they be out of date?
First what type of enemy are we going to be facing? (3rd world)
I don't think they will be that soficated.
If we can make old equipment work this long. Imagine what we can do with a little bit of ingenuity

 

[Slim]

Hey Gents

Sorry...After reading this I couldn't resist putting my 2 cents into the pot.

The Griffon is not really a military helicopter and, as such, does not fit any military role very well. It doesn't have the power or space to make a good troop carrier or attack aircraft and was bought for carrying generals around in. Period

If we want a good troop carrying helo I would put my money on the BlackHawk series of aircraft. They are strong, powerful with a lift capacity double that of the Griffon. The have many variants including a special ops bird (NightHawk/Stalker) a sea variant (Seahawk) a medivac/SAR variant ( I don't know the name of that one.) and, best of all, replacement parts and airframes are just around the corner!

A good attack helo for Canada would be the latest variant of the Cobra, which could operate in a marine enviorment as well as over land.

Just my thoughts.

Slim

 

[Jarnhamar]

I agree with you 100% Slim.

Unfortunately I don't think Canada will likely buy anything in the future that "looks American" or is surplus from the states. I think that Canadian politicians are so bent on NOT looking American they will throw away good deals on military items be they warthogs, M1a1 Abrams, black hawks or hummers.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Not to mention Arleigh Burkes

 

[ags281]

If we want a helicopter for the army that can actually carry out its mission, then why not do what the brits have done? EH-101 can carry far more than any Blackhawk variant - 30 or so people if I remember correctly - and has also proven itself capable in theatre over the past little while. This would also keep things cheaper and easier for the supply system/maintenance trades with common parts.

 

[DJL]

Here's a (cheap) idea, if we ever wanted to look towards attack helicopters and looking for a replacement for the Griffon. As was mentioned before in this thread, the USMC is having their SuperCobras (rebuilt?) replaced with the Zulu version, also there are having their twin Huey's (rebuilt?) replaced with a new(er) version. Now if the funds were there, I'd think it would be worth looking at buying mothballed Cobras and rebuilding them to the Zulu version, and well that was being done, rebuild the Griffons to the new "Y" standard.

WRT the A-10s, I'm sure somebody mentioned that the Americans are rebuilding upwards of 250 of them.....I'm quite sure they built over 700 in the 70s......must be a few zipped locked in the Arizona desert that nobody would miss :-

Not to mention Arleigh Burkes

The Tories say they are committedto replacing the 280s......I'd wonder what the bill for CADRE is up to now, and what it would look like next to the the bill for four Flight IIAs  :-

 

[30 for 30]

I can certainly see how a Griffon would be a poor attack helo compared to...well...pretty much any attack helo, but I'm just thinking in terms of cost. I would think upgrading a Griffon would certainly be cheaper than buying new or used Cobras, for instance, and I think the bottom line is that the CF is not going to buy new attack helos. I'm just thinking that an upgrade would at least bring something extra to the battlefield ie. some sort of attack helo capability as opposed to no attack helo capability. Wouldn't such a platform be the cheapest attack helo option and better than nothing? I might be wrong but I recall reading somewhere that the CF will be looking into upgrading the Griffon's weapons options. I confess I don't have a lot of knowledge in this area, but it's interesting to ponder.

 

[Jeff Boomhouwer]

The Can Gov does not have a problem buying used  equipment remember the CF101 VOODOO?

 

[JBP]

Yeah and the Vodoo was a piece of flying scrap when we bought it. Should have stuck with the Avro Arrow... Just my opinion...

I though we just got those Griffons not TOO many years ago didn't we? And we're already replacing them??? Looks like I need to take a look on DND website and update myself!

 

[Kirkhill]

One of the other advantages of buying Cobras...

They are built by Bell, the same people that brought you the Griffon, the same people that have an assembly plant in Quebec (at Mirabel if I remember correctly).   Support for the Quebec aerospace industry??

Hey, maybe they could even re-engine the Griffons with the GE pack used on the AH1Z rather than that half-speed Pratt and Whitney Canada Twin Pack.

Conveniently Bell and Lockheed (Supplier of C130s, P3/CP140s, and C27s) are now allied in the states to produce the US 101 version of the EH101.

Can anyone here say package deal?

Nahhhh.

One other point about support to Quebec Aerospace Inc.  Bombardier makes the aircraft the Brits have purchased on which to mount their ASTOR ground surveillance battle management system. 1600 Million Canadian Dollars for 5.

http://www.mod.uk/dpa/projects/astor.htm

Don't you wish that we had access to the costs of government contracts?  How come the Brits can do it so easily?

 

[DJL]

One of the other advantages of buying Cobras...

They are built by Bell, the same people that brought you the Griffon, the same people that have an assembly plant in Quebec (at Mirabel if I remember correctly).  Support for the Quebec aerospace industry??

Yeah, the same Province that has a certain party that says it won't support another party (when it forms a minority government at the end of the month) if it doesn't support the Quebec Aerospace industry.....hmmmm ???