6 Jan 2020 U.S. Events (Split from A Deeply Fractured US)

[Altair]

100% true, but taking that to its far end could mean no more undercover criminal investigations of any kind.

Meanwhile, speaking of cops at protests ...

This from Seattle's police chief ...

Good to hear.

One should not have traitors serving as armed police officers.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Showing up to a protest? They are police, not soldiers.

 

[lenaitch]

Showing up to a protest? They are police, not soldiers.

Well, according to Merriam-Webster, the evidence suggests they easily fit the definition:

Definition of traitor​

​

1: one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty​

2: one who commits treason​

The events at the Capitol stopped being simply a protest the moment they crossed the barriers.

 

[Remius]

Showing up to a protest? They are police, not soldiers.

Well the ones that only showed up haven’t been fired. The ones that went further have been.

 

[Altair]

Showing up to a protest? They are police, not soldiers.

6 showed up, 2 decided to join those rushing the capital building,the other 4 left.

The 2 who rushed the capital building got fired, as traitors should not be on a police force.

 

[Brad Sallows]

In the US, "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.". Civil disobedience isn't treason, and trying to stretch civilly disobedient people into "enemies of the United States" is a road unlikely to be taken, no matter how pedantically the definition of "insurrection" is applied.

 

[Remius]

In the US, "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort.". Civil disobedience isn't treason, and trying to stretch civilly disobedient people into "enemies of the United States" is a road unlikely to be taken, no matter how pedantically the definition of "insurrection" is applied.

Sure. The police chief, though didn’t see it that way. He actually applied the term insurrection in his written decision.

Seattle police chief fires officers he says trespassed and stood by during ‘violent, criminal’ Jan. 6 riot at U.S. Capitol

The Seattle police chief said he fired two of six SPD officers who attended the Jan. 6 "Stop the Steal" rally in Washington, D.C., and were next to the Capitol during the riot. Four other officers who attended the rally...

www.seattletimes.com

Specifically:


Diaz issued final disciplinary action reports for both Alexander Everett and Caitlin Rochelle Everett — in which Diaz wrote for both officers: “As a police officer, you have sworn to uphold laws and the Constitution. Yet on the afternoon of January 6, you violated the law and stood in the midst of an attempted insurrection,” the chief wrote. “Your unlawful presence provided the appearance that you, a member of the Seattle Police Department, supported an unlawful insurrection and greatly
undermined the public trust in you and all law enforcement officers.”

Pedantic or not, they were fired and good riddance.

 

[Altair]

Sure. The police chief, though didn’t see it that way. He actually applied the term insurrection in his written decision.

Seattle police chief fires officers he says trespassed and stood by during ‘violent, criminal’ Jan. 6 riot at U.S. Capitol

The Seattle police chief said he fired two of six SPD officers who attended the Jan. 6 "Stop the Steal" rally in Washington, D.C., and were next to the Capitol during the riot. Four other officers who attended the rally...

www.seattletimes.com

Specifically:


Diaz issued final disciplinary action reports for both Alexander Everett and Caitlin Rochelle Everett — in which Diaz wrote for both officers: “As a police officer, you have sworn to uphold laws and the Constitution. Yet on the afternoon of January 6, you violated the law and stood in the midst of an attempted insurrection,” the chief wrote. “Your unlawful presence provided the appearance that you, a member of the Seattle Police Department, supported an unlawful insurrection and greatly
undermined the public trust in you and all law enforcement officers.”

Pedantic or not, they were fired and good riddance.

Yeah, no need to treat these fools with kids gloves.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Conduct unbecoming, insurrection, whatever. Certainly their employers can find reasons to fire them with cause. Just not "treason/traitor".

 

[suffolkowner]

an older insurrection that war is boring has reposted only slightly off topic

75 years ago today, veterans overthrew a corrupt local government to save democracy

 

[Altair]

Conduct unbecoming, insurrection, whatever. Certainly their employers can find reasons to fire them with cause. Just not "treason/traitor".

Why does it matter to you?

These idiots deserve everything thrown at them

 

[RangerRay]

Off-duty cops show up to a protest…no big deal.

The protest, egged on by radical speakers using inflammatory language, becomes a violent storming of the Capitol to stop a constitutionally required act of government where fellow officers were assaulted (over 140 officers were hospitalized), they had two options:

They could assist their fellow officers as obliged to. Though obliged to assist, without PPE may put themselves at risk; or,

Turn around and go home. No one would have noticed.

They chose poorly.

From the footage I have seen, even from a distance, it was clear that this was not just a protest. With the smoke, tear gas and people climbing all over the building like ants, anyone who had any knowledge of the law would know that this was not right. A law-abiding citizen would have lent assistance or walked away.

These cops were not law-abiding citizens. They deserve their fate.

 

[lenaitch]

Conduct unbecoming, insurrection, whatever. Certainly their employers can find reasons to fire them with cause. Just not "treason/traitor".

I don't think anybody here is arguing that they 'committed treason', but you seem to want to draw a straight line between the legal definition of one word and the conversational - but linguistically correct -use of the other.

The couple should be happy they only got fired. If you scroll further down the US Code that you quoted you will find:

§2383. Rebellion or insurrection​

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

§2384. Seditious conspiracy​

If two or more persons in any State or Territory, or in any place subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, conspire to overthrow, put down, or to destroy by force the Government of the United States, or to levy war against them, or to oppose by force the authority thereof, or by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States, or by force to seize, take, or possess any property of the United States contrary to the authority thereof, they shall each be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both.

(I don't know whether a conspiracy between the two, or between them and others, would be provable under US law)

 

[Brad Sallows]

Why does it matter to you?

Not everything should be dialed up to 11.

These idiots deserve everything thrown at them

Primitive theory of justice you have.

 

[Brad Sallows]

the US Code that you quoted

Not US Code; part of article 3 of constitution.

Whoever ... engages in any rebellion or insurrection against ... the laws thereof

Not particularly narrow. Pretty much any exercise of opposition to a law can be defined as "rebellion".

If two or more persons ... conspire ... by force to prevent, hinder, or delay the execution of any law of the United States

Ditto, "sedition".

 

[Altair]

Not everything should be dialed up to 11.

Charging the capital building was what then, a 5?

As far as I'm concerned these are homegrown terrorists. Do you use softball terms with terrorists? No no, cant call ISIS terrorists, they are freedom fighters, can't dial it up to 11?

Sounds silly.

Primitive theory of justice you have.

If I had my way, every single idiot that was photographed inside the capital building would be rotting away for years in jail as an example to the rest.

The fact that most of these folks are not being charged, and the ones that are being charged are only getting relatively short sentences means that I can cheer without any sense of remorse that they are facing other consequences.

Like losing their jobs, societal shaming, being branded by the public as traitors. They should be rotting in prison, they are lucky that all they are facing are job losses and people on the internet calling them traitors.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Charging the capital building was what then, a 5?

More like a 3. Maybe a 2. It was a clown show, not a bloody revolution.

If I had my way, every single idiot that was photographed inside the capital building would be rotting away for years in jail as an example to the rest.

I do love an illiberal zealot.

 

[mariomike]

Gen. Mark Milley, chairperson of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, reportedly put it this way,

These guys are Nazis, they’re Boogaloo Boys, they’re Proud Boys. These are the same people we fought in World War II.
Everyone in this room, whether you’re a cop, whether you’re a soldier, we’re going to stop these guys to make sure we have a peaceful transfer of power. We’re going to put a ring of steel around this city and the Nazis aren’t getting in.

Top U.S. Gen. Mark Milley feared Trump would attempt a coup after his loss to Biden, new book says

"If I was going to do a coup, one of the last people I would want to do it with is General Mark Milley," Trump said in a statement.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Altair]

More like a 3. Maybe a 2. It was a clown show, not a bloody revolution.

Clown shows do not end up with capital police officers being beaten, pepper sprayed, being crushed in doors, having to fall back multiple times, having to rush elected officials out of the building, having to shoot a person for getting too close to politicians, having a single capital police officer have to lure away the mob from the senate chambers lest the mob actually start hanging people.

A 3, a 2, that suggests a routine event. Something that happens every few months or so.

Yet,


Palace of Westminister

Luxembourg Palace

The Bundestag

Palazzo Madama,Palazzo Montecitorio

Palacio del Senado,Palacio de las Cortes

The Old Royal Palace

Christiansborg Palace

Parliament Hill

The Riksdagshuset

Not one of these have been breached by a mob with politicians inside confirming election results. Not one.

Not a 3, not routine, and I don't care how much you try to downplay it.

I do love an illiberal zealot.

You may want to stop and ask yourself why you have any sympathy for these fools.

 

[Altair]

Gen. Mark Milley, chairperson of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, reportedly put it this way,

Top U.S. Gen. Mark Milley feared Trump would attempt a coup after his loss to Biden, new book says

"If I was going to do a coup, one of the last people I would want to do it with is General Mark Milley," Trump said in a statement.

www.cnbc.com

Well, he's an illiberal zealot clearly, this but a routine 3 or 2, common occurrence.

How dare he call them nazis? That's dialing things up to 11.

What the hell does he know?