5000 regular force over 5 years..... just a little question about that

[Docherty]

I agree the PT test could be harder especially the Step Test, but if they were to test people on the "Beep Test" it requires a lot of space. I assume that there is some type of research behind the step test and it can tell if candidates are fit enough for the CF.

 

[TCBF]

What we should REALLY be spending money on is the MMPI 2 testing, or equivalent psych testing.  I suppose as long as Canada sees the military as just a make work project for semi-literate rednecks, there is not much hope in that.  The myth of the super-human Canadian volunteer is just that - a myth. 

One psycho cost us an Airborne Regiment, twenty more, and we won't have an Army.  Perhaps that's the idea?

Tom

 

[noreaga808]

IMO the stardards aren't high at all, if anything some requirements should be increased in level of competence. For example the physical testing portion of recruitment is too minimal in comparison to what is actually required of you during training and in your career. I know that they are going to build up your physical ability but the initial test should reflect true military standards better. As it stands now the minimal physical requirements gives the impression that the Military is a cake walk to the uninformed. I found Police recruitment testing to be harder and even those weren't that taxing on you. Because of these low standards you are attracting more of the lower quality applicants. The current standards make the military look like a minimum wage job, that anyone can do it. That statement applies to most trades in the military not all.
On the other hand some requirements I thinks should be reduced. A prime example for myself would be vision standards for pilots. It's disheartening to be turned down for something that is out of your control when you check out other countries accepting applicants with less then perfect vision. I'm just a little bitter because that shut down my application file quick when I applied years back. Actually thats the only standard that I think should be reduced.

A major problem with the CF's in my opinion is that it isn't attracting a broad enough range of recruits. From what I see alot of civilians don't see the Military as a viable option for a career. It's due to the fact that people just don't really know much about what the military offers and just see the negatives stigmas that have been associated with the Military. If the public was better educated about the military through advertisement, better media coverage and whatever other means you can think of I believe that you would end up attracting more "higher quality" applicants.

 

[TCBF]

A good point. 

A lot of people want to go back to Regimental recruiting, selection and training.  The Australians have outsourced their recruiting of officers and tradesmen to a civilian company that also administers the medicals and the psch and aptitude tests.  You can bet they don't throw those tests at anyone who walks in the door.  Too expensive. 

I believe we have to take a more scientific and business like approach.  Remember, we are essentialy recruiting a force that may have to function as a CADRE of a much larger mobilized force.  In WW1, with a population of 6,000,000, Canada put 600,000 in uniform.  Today, with a population of 32,000,000, we should have the capacity of putting 3,000,000 in uniform in a pinch - more, if we are directly threatened on our home soil.  Our tiny force of 52,000, and our even tinier (now how did we get THAT backwards?) reserves would be the basis of that expansion.  Look at the quality control issues we had in WW2 with some orgs expanding to fifty times their original size.  We need a good initial cadre.

Tom

 

[Ghost]

Since we have enrolled 4-5 thousand CLEAN, HEALTHY AND INTELLIGENT applicants each year for the last five years then I am sure we can enrol another thousand CLEAN, HEALTHY AND INTELLIGENT applicants but remember we will have to process three thousand UNCLEAN, UNHEALTHY AND STUPID applicants to get that one thousand

You better not be calling me a UNCLEAN, UNHEALTHY AND STUPID applicant.

 

[kincanucks]

Well if you have passed the CFAT, Drug Screening, Medical processing and background checks then I won't.

 

[kitrad1]

I don't believe that there is an issue in attracting and processing 5 000 people in whatever time frame. Now, depending on the occupation...that's another story. Also, let's not confuse recruiting challenges with training ones.

Standards are too high, standards are too low. Too easy to get in, too hard to get in.....Everyone has a viewpoint. I think that it's important to remember that there are about one hundred different occupations and as much as we'd all like to be a pilot, it's not always possible. People need to have realistic expectations and a realistic understanding of what it is they want.

 

[Gouki]

I was very surprised by the standards for pilots, mind you I knew beforehand it was a tough route but when the Captain showed me the requirements and the scoring process they used .. Wow. He showed me the way they determine score and the marks needed in high school and university alone.

Well, to put it bluntly, any pilot has my automatic respect for sure, as well as people who even took the course but couldn't cut it.

Kincanucks: So let me get this straight. If Ghost didn't pass the CFAT or drug screening or medical processing or the background check it would make him unclean, unhealthy and stupid? How arrogant of you. I thought you of all people would have realized that there are many factors in things. Just cause someone fails the CFAT doesn't make them stupid. One of my friends didn't quite score extremely high on the CFAT and he was told they had doubts about his ability to be a soldier, but they let him in anyways. He then proceeded to graduate basic as the 2nd in the course. Now he's on his QL3 and is within the top 5 academically.

But, because he didn't do so hot on the CFAT, he must be stupid according to your mentality.

 

[kincanucks]

Kincanucks: So let me get this straight. If Ghost didn't pass the CFAT, drug screening, medical processing and background check it would make him unclean, unhealthy and stupid? How arrogant of you.

Yes as far as I am concerned.   While he may be clean, healthy and smart for civie street he would not be for the CF.   Arrogant I may be but I am clean, healthy and smart and in the CF.  

PM your name and recruiting centre I want to see what they assessed you as.

 

[Gouki]

Okay so that's fair and all - not for the CF.

But I'm confused as to how you can basically admit to being arrogant like that and not find anything particularly wrong with the statement.

note: I finished editing my previous reply when I noticed you had replied to it.

Anyhow, as my editing shows, just cause someone fails something like that or does poorly in no way makes them anything you said.

 

[Ghost]

No I passed all the testing but I still have not recvied a job offer.

The CFAT was a cakewalk and the guy giving me the interview didn't know what a GED is.

 

[Gouki]

Hmm.. some interesting things today.

Kincanucks despite our glaring differences here you may find this interesting, and I would like to see your take on it.

Apparently the Ombudsman was in investigating CFRC Winnipeg (the RC I deal with and that I am not extremely fond of) due to receiving a healthy amount of complaints from applicants there ... and even from some of the staff themselves.

The CO went to see a Captain that my father knows and he told the Captain to tell the absolute truth about the place but most importantly how the system is a crock of s**t and makes everything ridiculously impossible and slow. From what I gathered they all seem to have a big beef with some medical form, or something involving the medical.

I think it had something to do with why they should be sending forms to those doctors in Borden for opinions as if the doctors that saw us weren't enough? This is what's happening now.. A doctor here said there was no problem with my left knee (I had 2x arthroscopy on it in the last 4 years) and put "absolutely minimal" under the "risk of injury" part on the form. He told me he couldn't outright say "no chance" because I did after all have surgery in the past.

Now, here's where my recruiting officer himself gets upset. He thinks - again from what I've been hearing from conversations between him and my father, that it's stupid to send these forms to doctors in Borden for more opinions. He said "shouldn't one doctors opinion be sufficient? If we think he's fit to serve and the doctor agrees why waste time with Borden?" The CO was also raising this issue with the Ombudsman, according to the Captain.

The Captain tried his best to insure these doctors don't read into "absolutely minimal" too much by attaching a note saying how I do muay thai kickboxing and stuff like that to get them to realize that my knee is fine now. But, he voiced his concerns and once again his frustration at these certain forms which according to him is "holding damn near everyone up"

Kincanucks, as the most vocal recruiting staff member here, what do you think about the system and this medical thing? I wish I remembered the name of the form and the specifics but I hope the examples I provided are clear enough so that you know what they are referring to.  As a recruiter do you feel the system really messes with you guys?

 

[kincanucks]

The system as it stands requires the review of all questionable medicals by the Recruiting Medical Officer (RMO) in Borden.   Questionable medicals are those such as yours.   This is required because we can't enrol people that might have an existing condition that will require the CF to look after.   Now while the RMO can review and sign off most questionable medicals he/she sometimes has to go higher for another opinion especially on specialised cases.   These cases are sent to Directorate of Medical Policy.   It can become frustrating to the applicant and others that when a civilian doctor says you are good to go why can't that be accepted.   Unfortunately, in complex cases, the CF medical system will not solely rely on the civilian doctor mainly because that doctor is a civilian and really doesn't know anything about military service and universality of service so they must review all of these cases.   In this time of covering your asses I don't see this policy changing even with the Ombudsman's office involved.   I think the form you are referring to is the Statement of Tasks form which asks family doctors to state whether a person, in their opinion, can do certain military type tasks.

I can't comment specifically on the goings on in CFRC Winnipeg but sounds like there are some serious issues there.

Personally,   I think if someone wants to join the CF then they must be subject to the most intense scrutiny to ensure that we are getting the best possible person, without baggage, for the job.   Cheers.

 

[Kirkhill]

I'm sorry kincanucks but I can't let this pass.

You are apparently working as a Recruiter, someone who, as I would understand it, is tasked with reaching out and encouraging people to join an organization.  Admittedly trying to find the best quality applicants for the job, but still the primary task is to enroll people in order to fill courses and maintain strength.

The situation that is being described here suggests rather that the Recruiting organization is not primarily focused on attracting recruits but instead on screening out hordes of riff-raff.

Am I to understand that there is no manpower shortage in the CF and that there is a backlog of people clamoring at the doors of armouries and recruiting offices across the country?  Or, if there is a manpower shortage, it is because the nation of Canada is now populated by crippled, young asthmatics of limited intelligence and unclean habits?

I am confused, no doubt due to my own limited intelligence.

 

[kincanucks]

I'm sorry kincanucks but I can't let this pass.

You are apparently working as a Recruiter, someone who, as I would understand it, is tasked with reaching out and encouraging people to join an organization.   Admittedly trying to find the best quality applicants for the job, but still the primary task is to enroll people in order to fill courses and maintain strength.

The situation that is being described here suggests rather that the Recruiting organization is not primarily focused on attracting recruits but instead on screening out hordes of riff-raff.

Am I to understand that there is no manpower shortage in the CF and that there is a backlog of people clamoring at the doors of armouries and recruiting offices across the country?   Or, if there is a manpower shortage, it is because the nation of Canada is now populated by crippled, young asthmatics of limited intelligence and unclean habits?

I am confused, no doubt due to my own limited intelligence.

There is no difficulty at this time to attract interested applicants into the CF.  The CF is currently meeting its recruiting goals with clean (no drug use problems or security issues), healthy (meet the common enrolment standards and the MOC medical standards) and intelligent (pass the CFAT and have higher education) applicants.  So we have filled all regular force occupations to at least 97% of their yearly requirement every year for the last five.  Reserves are another matter but that comes down to poor attraction of suitable applicants.

I have noticed that the young people that apply for the CF (regular and reserve) are for the most part are unhealthy (product of a lazy and fast food society?) and have the poorer academic records and yes it sometimes comes down to weeding these people out.

Now there are backlogs of applicants for both the regular and reserve force but these applicants but the majority of these applicants don't meet the medical standards and/or have reliability or security issues.

As I have mentioned before:  Yes we need people but we are only taking the most suitable and the most competitive applicants and those with the minimum are not going to make it in the door.

 

[Kirkhill]

Fair enough kincanucks, and thanks for the straight answer.

So, in your opinion, will there be any problem in recruiting the extra 5000 bodies and filling out the ranks?

Also, as per this link, http://www.forces.gc.ca/site/about/family_e.asp,  the official limit on regular force strength is 62,000.  This number has been up on this site for some time now and predates Paul Martin's additional 5,000.  Presumably that means that the cap on strength is to go up to 67,000.

Of the current authorised strength of 62,000 we are regularly informed that there are only 52,000 or so effectives.  This means 10,000 ineffectives or 10,000 vacant positions. Now while recognizing that Canadian society, the Government and the CF owe a debt to those members that have served faithfully and have become "ineffective" in service, and thus need to be rewarded and taken care of, is it your position that these "ineffectives" are of better quality, or more precisely of better value, to the CF than the young folks applying and being turned away?

What would be the effect on the CF if those "ineffectives", again assuming that the positions weren't vacant, were replaced by "effectives"?  Would it not be reasonable to suppose that 10,000 replacements for the "ineffectives", together with Martin's additional 5,000, or 15,000 new bodies in total would breathe new life into the CF and create a much more effective force?  

Or am I totally misconstruing the concept of Effective Strength and Authorised Strength?

Also you state that the problem with the Reserves is "poor attraction of suitable applicants".   What can your people at the CF Recruiting System/Service do to Recruit more suitable applicants?  Seeing as how the matter has apparently been taken out of the hands of the Units themselves.

And Ghost, I can understand how your blood pressure might be rising about now but regardless of comments made let's try and keep this away from the personal.  It doesn't serve anybody's case well.

 

[043]

Troops,

Enough piss moaning back and forth. It's all good but you have to think about where is the CF going to house these people? There isn't the quarters available for all these pers.  Infrastructure is going to have to be built prior to the big pers boom.

CHIMO!!!

 

[Kirkhill]

And then there is that Chimo!!!

Cheers.

 

[Long in the tooth]

If medical docs are being screened in Borden, it means the local physicians are not making the right decisions.  Authority is normally devolved when competency and trust is established, and rescinded when lost.  This cannot be a good thing.  Is this true of all CFRCs?

 

[Gouki]

I'm beginning to change my attitude into thinking it's not so much recruiting themselves now but a crappy system in need of an overhaul to do away with some of these pointless "garbage wastes of time" as a PO put it ... and perhaps a decent amountl lies with the CFRC's themselves. This one in Winnipeg .... many people were complaining about it and the fact that the ombudsman was lurking around and asking questions shows something is not going right.

But the doc that checked me out, he's a sports ... something or other. Point is he's familiar with knee injuries and all that jazz, so it's stupid as to why they wouldn't take his opinion to heart and not waste time with Borden, but this is something my recruiting officer has been raising hell with in regards to the system.