22 Jul 11: Explosion near Norwegian PM's office

[Edward Campbell]

The types of Islamophobia found in the press and comment boards today are used as a recruiting vehicle for extremists to twist the minds of young vulnerable Muslims. Where ever terrorists strike, we must swiftly investigate it and yes, identify the problem where ever it may be. Part of that is dividing the guilty from the not guilty.

Muslims are not terrorists.

Just as Catholics are not child molesters.

We must recognize the truth that the actions of the few should not colour the many. If anything, our brothers and sisters who are of Muslim creed need our support and caring, as today, despite the evidence, they are a target for retribution.

I agree with you, Teeps74 but only in part - the part I have highlighted.

We do and and did not need to "reach out" to Catholics when they blow people up in Ireland, nor to Buddhists and Hindus who terrorized one another in Sri Lanka, nor to Muslims in Israel, Gaza, Pakistan or Afghanistan. We do know that most people, of every race, colour and creed just want to get on with their lives - we do not need to single anyone out just because they didn't throw this bomb.

Now, to the point where we do agree: extremists must not be allowed to flourish in our society, in fact we should do everything we can, even taking some unreasonable measures, to make sure that extremists - ethnic extremists, political extremists and religious extremists, too - find it impossible to flourish here and, in fact, damned hard to even exist. That goes for white supremacists, anti-globalization bank bombers, and those who promote ethnic and religious supremacy. I do oppose hate laws but I do not oppose tormenting the haters with the 21st century equivalents of "tar and feather" and "run out of town on a rail."

 

[canada94]

86 people killed?  How do enough people stick around/not fight back that long for so many to die?

Have you seen photo's of the Island? Also CBC has reports from survivors that he was wearing a  police uniform and that he was a 6ft tall white Norwegian. Reports also say because he was in a police uniform he was able to convince people to collect together in groups.. I'm assuming that made it much easier for him to control the situation. Also seeing everyone on the Island where teenagers to early 20's when they saw a police officer they probably believed they would be in a safer area rather then... "I saw a policeman stand there with earplugs. He said 'I'd like to gather everyone'. Then he ran in and started shooting at people. We ran down toward the beach and began to swim." - CBC

Aerial Picture of the Island: http://a.abcnews.com/images/Blotter/ap_utoya_norway_shooting_jrs_110722_wg.jpg

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Have you seen photo's of the Island? Also CBC has reports from survivors that he was wearing a  police uniform and that he was a 6ft tall white Norwegian. Reports also say because he was in a police uniform he was able to convince people to collect together in groups.. I'm assuming that made it much easier for him to control the situation. Also seeing everyone on the Island where teenagers to early 20's when they saw a police officer they probably believed they would be in a safer area rather then... "I saw a policeman stand there with earplugs. He said 'I'd like to gather everyone'. Then he ran in and started shooting at people. We ran down toward the beach and began to swim." - CBC

Aerial Picture of the Island: http://a.abcnews.com/images/Blotter/ap_utoya_norway_shooting_jrs_110722_wg.jpg

Remember that there were several hundred kids on the island. Its small size would afford very few places to hide for that number of victims. They had no place to go and nothing to protect themselves with and I imagine very few boats or anything to else that the kids to use to escape.

 

[Steve1987]

I wonder how this will sit on the gun control debate.

One article says he was a member of a shooting club, so it is possible the gun (guns?) were legally obtained threw their strict firearms licensing.  Norway however does not allow concealed carry and is very strict on where guns can be used and stored, so there is no way to legally defend yourself in this situation.

By the sounds of what I've read it seems if he simply went around shooting people completely unopposed until he ran out of ammo, and then was later apprehended by the authorities. 

Waiting to hear more on this incident, hopefully more info will become available.

-Steve

 

[The Bread Guy]

86 people killed?  How do enough people stick around/not fight back that long for so many to die?

They were scared young people?  They didn't have military/martial arts/self-defence training?  They didn't expect to have to prepare for this at a youth Labour party camping trip?  Fish in a barrel on a tiny island?  They didn't know what else to do?  He killed all the ones who looked like they'd put up a fight first?

Just like with this incident, not having been there, I like to think I'd do the right thing, but I wouldn't second-guess those who didn't do anything because they were scared or didn't know what to do.

 

[sean m]

Here is the suspect' profile and picture

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-14259989

This is terrible to say but at least he is not Muslim, since this community has received a lot of negative attention (justified, unjustified).

 

[canada94]

Remember that there were several hundred kids on the island. Its small size would afford very few places to hide for that number of victims. They had no place to go and nothing to protect themselves with and I imagine very few boats or anything to else that the kids to use to escape.

I know that is what I was saying, I agree.! It sounds to hectic of a situation to expect anyone to be "heroic" and overcome the gunman. I just hope the injured recover and justice is served!

 

[Fatalize]

Curious why they had no security at all for that youth camp of 700, he was able to wait until the police arrived to surrender.

Hopefully the shooter gets what he deserves.

 

[Infanteer]

I fully understand that many of the victims were young and that there were no places to hide.  My question is more on the psychological/social nature of being a victim.

What differentiates between scrambling around while dozens of other people are being killed to simply await your turn, or being like Ginger.  Is it human nature or something bred into us by society?

 

[canada94]

I fully understand that many of the victims were young and that there were no places to hide.  My question is more on the psychological/social nature of being a victim.

What differentiates between scrambling around while dozens of other people are being killed to simply await your turn, or being like Ginger.  Is it human nature or something bred into us by society?

IMO Ginger endangered everyone in that video by potentially aggravating the gunman. However I think just as most animal's in the wild, the easiest way to survive, is to hide. Just as the kids who "played dead" or hid behind rocks.. or tried to swim away. When you are a powerless 16 year old facing a man with an "automatic pistol" which NRK is reporting he was firing.. there is not much to do but run.. in my opinion. I'd like to think I would "fight back".. but as always it's MUCH easier said then done.

 

[The Bread Guy]

I fully understand that many of the victims were young and that there were no places to hide.  My question is more on the psychological/social nature of being a victim.

What differentiates between scrambling around while dozens of other people are being killed to simply await your turn, or being like Ginger.  Is it human nature or something bred into us by society?

Seen - a lot to chew on there....

On an individual basis, I'm going to guess human nature would be to run away from a threat, hence the training and motivation needed for troops/cops to run toward the threat.  This is also what makes those without the training who run to the threat more unique.

If parents were there, though (guessing the parental instinct would cause one to move toward the threat to protect the kids), methinks it might have been different.

 

[Infanteer]

IMO Ginger endangered everyone in that video by potentially aggravating the gunman.

IMO you're wrong, and you would have had a different opinion had that man gunned down all those school board folks and Ginger died trying to fight him off.  If the other folks in that hall would have helped Ginger, they likely would have taken the guy down before he started shooting his pistol some time later.  The more Gingers, the less the lone-gunman has the oppurtunity to up his bodycount.

On an individual basis, I'm going to guess human nature would be to run away from a threat, hence the training and motivation needed for troops/cops to run toward the threat.  This is also what makes those without the training who run to the threat more unique.

If parents were there, though (guessing the parental instinct would cause one to move toward the threat to protect the kids), methinks it might have been different.

True.  I'd like to think that, after about the 58th person was gunned down that I would have convinced myself that fight would be better than flight.

I don't like to armchair this, but I here it is.  I'm just tired of seeing people being victims when there is a chance that they don't have to be.

 

[canada94]

IMO you're wrong, and you would have had a different opinion had that man gunned down all those school board folks and Ginger died trying to fight him off.  If the other folks in that hall would have helped Ginger, they likely would have taken the guy down before he started shooting his pistol some time later.  The more Gingers, the less the lone-gunman has the oppurtunity to up his bodycount.

True.  I'd like to think that, after about the 58th person was gunned down that I would have convinced myself that fight would be better than flight.

I don't like to armchair this, but I here it is.  I'm just tired of seeing people being victims when there is a chance that they don't have to be.

Good sir, he did open fire on them. He just somehow missed, got into a gun fight then killed himself. The HERO was the man talking to him who had told the gunnman that he was the one who fired his wife, and tried to convince the gunman to free everyone but himself. However again, it's IMO.

 

[The Bread Guy]

True.  I'd like to think that, after about the 58th person was gunned down that I would have convinced myself that fight would be better than flight.

I don't like to armchair this, but I here it is.  I'm just tired of seeing people being victims when there is a chance that they don't have to be.

I hear ya - it sucks, but not everyone is a sheepdog.

 

[dapaterson]

I don't like to armchair this, but I here it is.  I'm just tired of seeing people being victims when there is a chance that they don't have to be.

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

 

[lethalLemon]

I think all of you are missing a very important piece to the shootings:

THE GUNMAN WAS DRESSED AS A POLICE OFFICER AND BECKONED FOR THE PEOPLE OF THE CAMP TO GATHER AROUND HIM SO HE COULD SPEAK TO THEM. When they approached, he opened fire, killing them. Those that were not killed immediately began to run for the beaches in hopes of swimming away to safety. However the gunman shot them too.

 

[aesop081]

I think all of you are missing a very important piece to the shootings:

No. I doubt they missed it and neither did I. Dressed like a cop or not, once he started shooting people, you would think someone would have stopped him from doing so.

 

[SoldierInAYear]

WARNING

http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/9230/kajghaade.jpg

WARNING

Imagine being those police officers.

 

[canada94]

No. I doubt they missed it and neither did I. Dressed like a cop or not, once he started shooting people, you would think someone would have stopped him from doing so.

Sorry. But that is a ridiculous comment. Much easier SAID THEN DONE.

 

[dapaterson]

Sorry. But that is a ridiculous comment. Much easier SAID THEN DONE.

It has been done.

But our social conditioning as sheep claims many victims.  Hence the men at the Polytechnique abandonned the women to Marc Lepine.