2023 UCP Alberta election

[RangerRay]

It’s a huge leap to say being stupid/naive/foolish/incompetent/favouring one part of the country over the other = treasonous.

 

[Fabius]

Democracy, I would argue is only one half of the political equation in Canada. The other component that is likely more vital is small L classical liberalism.

I am not certain that a decline in belief in classical liberalism can be fixed by changing our system from FPTP. A better balance and separation of powers, maybe but even that has its issues to our South.

I suspect that fading belief in liberalism and increasing centralization of power may be actually masked by democratic majority support whether that means seats or popular vote.

 

[CBH99]

I too don’t like party lists, but I actually see parties as lacking gatekeepers that they used to have. It used to be that the old “boys in the smoke-filled rooms” looked out for the interests of the party as a whole and ensured candidates that were unappealing to most voters were rejected outright. Now that we have “democratized” the process, the only ones who participate are the cranks and the cult members. These unsuitable candidates are then foisted on the electorate at large. Many of whom either hold their nose and vote for the least offensive of an offensive bunch, or stay home.

This is a huge change of mind for me. I used to be a “allow all members a vote” person, but with all the shenanigans with mass membership sales the incentive structures they create, I think parties need more gatekeepers.

Wasn’t it Socrates who was hung for blasphemy, for daring to suggest that ‘not just anyone’ should be allowed to vote?

(His idea was that if someone wanted to be allowed to vote, they had to be educated in howa state’s matters are conducted…such as how monetary policy affects the state in the short & long term, trade, basic structure of government, etc)

Otherwise, he argued, anybody would be allowed to vote. Politicians will pander to that rather than dealing with matters of substance, and uninformed citizens will elect morons to run the show…

<Most Canadian MP’s, please bow>

 

[Weinie]

And yet the Conservatives formed minority governments in 2006 and 2008 despite the Liberals dominating the GTA. At that time, the Liberals didn't dominate the greater Montreal region the way they have since Trudeau became leader- that actually seems to have been a big deal in tipping the scales for them.

It's disappointing you see you putting the quote marks around the word "democracy", as if liking or not liking the results (and I also don't like the results) speaks to the legitimacy or validity of the system as a whole. We have a properly functioning Westminster parliamentary democracy, but unfortunately the currently largest opposition party struggles to get its poop in a group and to offer us leaders who can win elections.

It's disappointing of you to arbiter my remarks. I will refrain from doing so whence you make comments in the future.

 

[quadrapiper]

Trudeau and his supporters seem to act in a treasonous way.
involving or guilty of the crime of betraying one's country.
involving or guilty of the betrayal of someone or something.

JT and his supporters have killed the largest energy projects we have ever had. His act is against Alberta. He he has quietly allowed approval of a Natural gas plant in Quebec along with other energy projects out east while limiting them out west. He is directly defiant of Western Canada and the products and services they can provide. To the point our Foreign partners are questioning his sincerity to provide energy to Europe.

Quite peddling nonsense. PMs balance/pander to regional interests: it's part of the job/what politicians do; they equally shaft/deemphasize support for provinces and enterprises who voted for someone else/aren't engaging with federal approaches. A failure to defer to a particular province's desire for eternal energy wealth isn't treason, nor is anything else the current PM has done - and, no, expressing admiration for a foreign power isn't treason, whatever else it might be.

The western world's and Canada's failure on the energy front is that there was no shift to nuclear (augmented by solar, wind, hydro, and tidal as appropriate) starting sixty-odd years ago, augmented by our appalling embrace of automotive and air travel versus rail options. Whatever's happening now as far as fiddling with energy projects is flailing in the face of that failure and all of its geopolitical and environmental effects.

 

[Good2Golf]

The western world's and Canada's failure on the energy front is that there was no shift to nuclear (augmented by solar, wind, hydro, and tidal as appropriate) starting sixty-odd years ago, augmented by our appalling embrace of automotive and air travel versus rail options. Whatever's happening now as far as fiddling with energy projects is flailing in the face of that failure and all of its geopolitical and environmental effects.

At least SMRs are coming in the future…so there’s that. (Unless Ecocriminister Guilbault and PMJT’s other eco warrior minions stop that too)

 

[QV]

It’s a huge leap to say being stupid/naive/foolish/incompetent/favouring one part of the country over the other = treasonous.

Nobody is that stupid/foolish.

 

[RangerRay]

Wasn’t it Socrates who was hung for blasphemy, for daring to suggest that ‘not just anyone’ should be allowed to vote?

(His idea was that if someone wanted to be allowed to vote, they had to be educated in howa state’s matters are conducted…such as how monetary policy affects the state in the short & long term, trade, basic structure of government, etc)

Otherwise, he argued, anybody would be allowed to vote. Politicians will pander to that rather than dealing with matters of substance, and uninformed citizens will elect morons to run the show…

<Most Canadian MP’s, please bow>

I have come to become in favour of democracy between parties, not within parties. Parties have to look out for the larger interest in the party getting elected, not scratching the itch of a small but vocal minority of the population.

When most of the sitting MP’s/MLA’s want nothing to do with a particular leadership candidate, that should be a red flag.

 

[RangerRay]

Nobody is that stupid/foolish.

You’d be surprised, especially when money and vanity gets in the way. All kinds of bad things, but not treason.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The western world's and Canada's failure on the energy front is that there was no shift to nuclear (augmented by solar, wind, hydro, and tidal as appropriate) starting sixty-odd years ago, augmented by our appalling embrace of automotive and air travel versus rail options. Whatever's happening now as far as fiddling with energy projects is flailing in the face of that failure and all of its geopolitical and environmental effects.

Cars gave the Middle Class the power to move, travel, work and enjoy their leisure time at their will. Something that previously only the rich could afford to do. I will admit rail access did similar to the working class in the Industrial revolution, but cars gave people the freedom of choice and the abilty to travel long distances as they pleased. People continually undervalue the positive impact of the automobile on our society.

 

[quadrapiper]

Cars gave the Middle Class the power to move, travel, work and enjoy their leisure time at their will. Something that previously only the rich could afford to do. I will admit rail access did similar to the working class in the Industrial revolution, but cars gave people the freedom of choice and the abilty to travel long distances as they pleased. People continually undervalue the positive impact of the automobile on our society.

Certainly: the carriage to all the ticky-tacky castles.

What was viciously, perhaps criminally stupid, in the zone where most people do most of their driving, was the obliteration of downtown and interurban streetcar and passenger rail services. The effort required to reintroduce that nature of transit is absolutely incredible (consider Greater Vancouver's creeping expansion of the Skytrain network, and the never-ending hand wringing over maybe getting rail back on Vancouver Island).

 

[Brad Sallows]

Urban rail isn't very cost-effective.

We made the correct choice on long-distance rail: freight over passenger. Europe made the wrong choice, and ends up moving a lot of goods by the least effective means (road).

 

[QV]

Is anyone familiar with Bill C-235?

 

[Blackadder1916]

Is anyone familiar with Bill C-235?

For those unfamiliar . . . C-235 (44-1) - LEGISinfo - Parliament of Canada

With all due respect to the recently deceased MP for Winnipeg South Centre, like most private member's bills, it's a nothingburger. Read the text ". . . develop a framework for local cooperation and engagement in the implementation of federal programs across various sectors to build a green economy in the Prairie provinces. . . . The framework must include measures that . . . address, foster, prioritize, support, establish, prepare . . ." Take a year to do that and report to parliament. Then take two years to see if anyone cares. Repeat every five years.

 

[ArmyRick]

Are we talking about the same Danielle Smith?

Did you watch the video of Peterson and Smith, yes or no?

 

[childs56]

Quite peddling nonsense. PMs balance/pander to regional interests: it's part of the job/what politicians do; they equally shaft/deemphasize support for provinces and enterprises who voted for someone else/aren't engaging with federal approaches. A failure to defer to a particular province's desire for eternal energy wealth isn't treason, nor is anything else the current PM has done - and, no, expressing admiration for a foreign power isn't treason, whatever else it might be.

LOL ok, what does one call it when you sacrifice Domestic interests for lining the pockets of yourself, friends and foreign interests? What does one call it when you openly said you do not like Western Canada and Quebec deserves everything? What does one call it when a Prime Minister cripples their economy based on false facts and bad opinions. (note he stated no new Natural Gas plants, then quietly approved one in Quebec. Stated no more open pit mines, then approves new ones in Northern Quebec and Ontario).

The western world's and Canada's failure on the energy front is that there was no shift to nuclear (augmented by solar, wind, hydro, and tidal as appropriate) starting sixty-odd years ago, augmented by our appalling embrace of automotive and air travel versus rail options. Whatever's happening now as far as fiddling with energy projects is flailing in the face of that failure and all of its geopolitical and environmental effects.

Nuclear power is not the be all end all, it has some extremely serious consequence's if one has a accident. Threat to a disaster is enormous. Although we have the safest Reactors in the world, with better technology that will improve.
As for "green energy" there is serious consequences to its production, use, sustainability and disposal.

Intra city rail service is not very sustainable in the numbers we have. It is proven around the world that you need high density users to make rail travel sustainable.

I am pretty sure the current energy projects are only flailing here in Canada, around the world these projects are being enlarged on an enormous level. Even Germany is bringing back Coal fired electric plants. They lied about their green energy success, instead they bought gas from other sources and electricity from others who were not so green.

 

[Lumber]

What does one call it when you openly said you do not like Western Canada and Quebec deserves everything?

Favourtism, partiality, political, possibly even pragmatic, but certainly not treason.

What does one call it when a Prime Minister cripples their economy based on false facts and bad opinions.

Incompetence? Foolishness? But not treason.

(note he stated no new Natural Gas plants, then quietly approved one in Quebec. Stated no more open pit mines, then approves new ones in Northern Quebec and Ontario).

Deceitful? Inconsistent? But not treason.

LOL ok, what does one call it when you sacrifice Domestic interests for lining the pockets of yourself, friends and foreign interests?

I left this one for last because you could, maybe, depending on the scale, and depending on the damage/harm done, start considering such moves as treasonous (thought not necessarily downright convictable treason); however, I'm just going to call BS on this claim all together.

 

[CBH99]

LOL ok, what does one call it when you sacrifice Domestic interests for lining the pockets of yourself, friends and foreign interests? What does one call it when you openly said you do not like Western Canada and Quebec deserves everything? What does one call it when a Prime Minister cripples their economy based on false facts and bad opinions. (note he stated no new Natural Gas plants, then quietly approved one in Quebec. Stated no more open pit mines, then approves new ones in Northern Quebec and Ontario).

Nuclear power is not the be all end all, it has some extremely serious consequence's if one has a accident. Threat to a disaster is enormous. Although we have the safest Reactors in the world, with better technology that will improve.
As for "green energy" there is serious consequences to its production, use, sustainability and disposal.

Intra city rail service is not very sustainable in the numbers we have. It is proven around the world that you need high density users to make rail travel sustainable.

I am pretty sure the current energy projects are only flailing here in Canada, around the world these projects are being enlarged on an enormous level. Even Germany is bringing back Coal fired electric plants. They lied about their green energy success, instead they bought gas from other sources and electricity from others who were not so green.

So I absolutely see & hear where you're coming from.

As an Albertan, I can't help but view JT as a traitor every time I see him - but others here are right, he doesn't quite hit the mark when it comes to the legal definition of treason...

Which is unfortunate, because when you look at his tenure as PM altogether - I don't think anybody in the country can say he's done a single good thing for us economically, respected the Charter, has been honest about a single question asked, or conducted himself respectably. Not even close.

He has however tried to censor the internet, is in the process of imposing a total gun ban (through a series of last minute amendments which seem awfully well prepared for something they just thought they'd quickly toss in), tried to funnel $500k to a charity his own family operates, actually entertained changing the law so that SNC Lavalin could avoid prosecution, etc etc

And that list above barely even scratches the surface...


Is he a traitor to our collective values & expectations? Yes

Is he a traitor in the sense that he's willingly divulged state secrets to China? No.

(I would probably argue yes to this also, but I'm trying to stick with what's in the public domain.)


My point? I believe he could/should be charged with corruption, there's not a doubt in my mind he's one of the most corrupt politicians in the western world.

Criminal negligence, perhaps?

Perjury, absolutely.

Breach of trust?

Hell you could probably snag him with mischief? (or something related?)



But not treason, as the legal requirements have not been met.

(I would argue that PERHAPS they have been...those 2 Chinese scientists who worked in our lab didn't just walk in off the street. The feds hired them, and did so quietly.)

It took the PM an awfully long time to finally say in public that Huawei couldn't be involved in our 5G networks...but one could easily argue that was done to help free the 2 Michaels.

But they did just award a contract to a company re RCMP, who's parent company is charged with espionage.

Someone looking over that contract obviously did some basic homework & discovered a pretty big red flag...what if nobody bothered to do that homework because they assumed it had already been done prior to the contract being awarded, like it should have been?



I don't disagree with you. He's a traitor when it comes to our values, and what we expect from a public servant. He's betrayed Canadians in some pretty big ways, is blatantly corrupt, doesn't seem to respect the law, etc etc

Aka - he's a total piece of s**t.

But legally, so his actions meet the threshold of being a traitor? No.


My 0.02

 

[Halifax Tar]

When a person takes the view that their elected representatives have turned their back on them (from experiences or opinion) its easy to see where the term treason gets brought into the conversation.

 

[Brad Sallows]

So we're arguing over what the actual character flaws are, rather than treason, of the person who holds the reins of the PMO. What high standards this country has.