• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

14 Nov 12: Israel Launches Operations in Gaza

Mendelson is not alone in putting forth this line of reasoning. Several other articles and news reports I've read or heard over this period also agree that Hamas was running the risk of losing credibility as a major player in the fighting when compared to the other militant groups within Gaza. They had become conflicted in the role thrust upon them when they won the elections. They needed to govern the territory, keep the peace among the various militant factions while at the same time fight for the creation of an independent Palestinian state.

 
Interesting take by Fareed Zakaria on the Arab - Israel balance of power, based on a 2010 study by the CSIS.

Israel dominates the new Middle East

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-israel-dominates-the-middle-east/2012/11/21/d310dc7c-3428-11e2-bfd5-e202b6d7b501_story.html?hpid=z6

As missiles and rockets exploded in Israel and Gaza, television news was dominated by the tragic violence, and we were warned that the battle between Israel and the Palestinians might spread because we are in a new and much more dangerous Middle East. Islamists are in power, democracies will listen to their people. In fact, as the relatively quick cease-fire between the parties shows, there is a very low likelihood of a broader regional conflict. It’s true that we’re in a new Middle East, but it’s one in which Israel has become the region’s superpower.

In a thorough 2010 study, “The Arab-Israeli Military Balance,” Anthony Cordesman and Aram Nerguizian document how over the past decade Israel has outstripped its neighbors in every dimension of warfare. The authors attribute this to Israel’s “combination of national expenditures, massive external funding, national industrial capacity and effective strategy and force planning.” Israel’s military expenditures in 2009 were about $10 billion, which is three times Egypt’s military spending and larger than the combined defense expenditures of all its neighbors — Egypt, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. (This advantage is helped by the fact that Israel receives $3 billion in military assistance from Washington.)

But money doesn’t begin to describe Israel’s real advantages, which are in the quality and effectiveness of its military, in terms of both weapons and people. Despite being dwarfed by the Arab population, Israel’s army plus its high-quality reservists vastly outnumber those of the Arab nations. Its weapons are far more sophisticated, often a generation ahead of those used by its adversaries. Israel’s technology advantage has profound implications on the modern battlefield.

The most powerful Arab military, and the one against which Israel is often judged in scholarly studies, is Syria’s. But of course the Syrian army is now in turmoil as it battles its own people and Bashar al-Assad hangs on to power.

Then there are the asymmetrical threats from groups such as Hezbollah and Hamas. The study takes a look at them and analyzes Hezbollah’s huge arsenal of missiles. The authors conclude that these pose no real threat to Israel because the missiles are largely unguided and thus ineffective. Hamas’s rockets are even more crude and ineffective. Israel’s response, its “Iron Dome” defense system, has worked better than expected.

As for terrorism, the other asymmetrical strategy against Israel: Despite Wednesday’s attack on a bus in Tel Aviv, Israel is largely protected from terrorists because of the wall it built in 2003.

As for larger threats, the study points out that Israel is the only country in the region with a sophisticated nuclear arsenal — estimated to be between 100 and 500 weapons, many of them on submarines — and advanced ballistic missiles.

This is why Egypt, despite being under a new Islamist government, is not going to risk war with Israel. Nor are the other Arab states. They will make fiery speeches and offer humanitarian assistance. But they will not fight alongside the Palestinians in Gaza or do anything that could trigger a wider war.

Turkey, another powerful regional player, has a government that has weakened its ties with Israel and clashed with it repeatedly over its treatment of the Palestinians. But these are verbal clashes, unlikely to amount to much more. In fact, Turkey is now facing a situation in which its efforts to become a regional power have backfired. It gambled that it would be able to dislodge the regime in Syria, which has not yet happened. Its relations with Iraq have deteriorated as it shields the Sunni vice president from Baghdad’s Shiite-led government, which wants to arrest him. And since Turkey has frosty relations with Israel, it can only watch from afar as Egypt becomes the bridge between Israel and Hamas. The only real outside broker in the region is, of course, the United States, Israel’s closest ally.

These are the realities of the Middle East today. Israel’s astonishing economic growth, its technological prowess, its military preparedness and its tight relationship with the United States have set it a league apart from its Arab adversaries. Peace between the Palestinians and Israelis will come only when Israel decides that it wants to make peace. Wise Israeli politicians, from Ariel Sharon to Ehud Olmert to Ehud Barak, have wanted to take risks to make that peace because they have worried about Israel’s future as a Jewish and democratic state. This is what is in danger, not Israel’s existence.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
The pressure on Israel - diplomatic, political and economic - to accept a ceasefire and something akin to the status quo ant will be enormous. US President Obama will be one of the ones applying the most pressure.

How could you not apply that pressure in good conscience. Guilt by association is wrong. Punishing 1.6 million people, including killing women and children, for the actions of a few rebels is morally abhorrent. Am I the only one who still believes in the Geneva Convention? The restrictions since 2007 are worthy of the Polish Ghettos. Starving out their industry to the point that 95% of manufacturing has has shut down, seizing 35% of their agricultural land as a "buffer zone" and not letting their fishing fleet past the three mile limit. Most of the population has nothing to do with the attacks and they have legitimate grievances about having their country taken from them. Now forced to the point that they barely even have food they go berserk and start fights they cannot win out of desperation. To call resistance terrorism and to pretend Israel has the legal right to do this is not genuine. If we choose to side with something so wrong we should hang our heads in shame for every dead civilian.
 
Sorry Nemo, but these are the people who voted Hamas into power, cheer and hand out sweets whenever an Isreali is killed and, despite the devastation wrought by the IDF, continue to support Hamas in power (or make no move to remove them, which is effectively the same thing).

Being a Biblical land, this seems an appropriate summary:

Hosea 8:7: "they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind"

While I don't understand what passed for politics in the Arab world either, it seems Israeli diplomats and strategists have scored big; both Hamas and Egypt's President and the Muslim brotherhoods get what looks like a win on the surface, but a huge mass of internal problems to deal with as a consequence. They will be spending a lot more time dealing with that then Israel for a long time to come.
 
Thucydides said:
Sorry Nemo, but these are the people who voted Hamas into power, cheer and hand out sweets whenever an Isreali is killed and, despite the devastation wrought by the IDF, continue to support Hamas in power (or make no move to remove them, which is effectively the same thing).

Hamas received 440,000 votes, or about 44% of eligible voters. Not even a majority of the popular vote. That doesn't seem like a particularly strong argument, given a total population of about 1.7 million. There are many, many innocent people who did not vote for Hamas, and many who were not able to vote at all. Are they too reaping what they've somehow sown?

I'm with Nemo in terms of it being a matter of good conscience for a major world power to try to leverage for a ceasefire in this conflict. It's exceptionally rare, in my opinion, for the presence of killing to be more desirable than the lack thereof.
 
So the indiscriminate murder of  children, who I might add cannot vote, are acceptable losses to you. They are guilty by association. This shows your true character. I for one will side with the Greatest Generation and the Geneva Convention's “Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War.” 
 
Nemo888 said:
So the indiscriminate murder of  children, who I might add cannot vote, are acceptable losses to you. They are guilty by association. This shows your true character. I for one will side with the Greatest Generation and the Geneva Convention's “Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War.”

Step back there, buds.

"Discrimination, proportionality, military necessity, least necessary force".

This is not Operation Cast Lead where the civilian fatalities were a much great proportion of total deaths. Civilian deaths in battle do not in and of themselves equal to the murder of civilians. I have generally been quite skeptical towards ISraeli effots in Gaza, and I have vehemently called out their excess in 2008. In this instance however let's not forget that they WERE on the receiving end of some 1200+ rockets fired from Gaza, and that for the most part did a good job of engaging justifiable targets. In a dense urban environment, some civilians are going to die. In a conflict, there will be errors, there will be failures, and shit, sometimes a bomb or missile will straight up miss.

The total fatalities in this particular outbreak of violence look to have been approximately half civilian, half military- and the numbers were small enough that a relative handful of bombs gone astray, or legitimate targeting decisions with more civilians present than was though to be the case pushed those numbers up. But I will not accuse the Israelis of being indiscriminate in this latest outburst, and given the incoming fire they were taking, proportionality, military necessity, and generally speaking minimal necessary force to defeat the threat looks to have been the case.

You want to call him out for trivializing civilian deaths in general if they can be accused of having been on 'the wrong side'- I won't argue that based on his post. But you've gone well beyond that to the point of accusing Israel of rather serious criminal actions which, in this instance, I don't believe is a justifiable claim.
 
I'm half in the bag brother. It's one am on a Friday night. I probably would have said what you said if I was sober.
 
When fighting a terror group who may not wear a uniform,it seems they become civilian fatalities in death.
 
There's no doubt that babes in arms are not "guilty" of anything, they care not terrorists, but, equally, there is no reasonable way to avoid some "collateral damage."

When we can see that a) Israel was able to hit a pinpoint target - one floor of a building wherein good, usually reliable intelligence indicated that a "legitimate" target was in place, but b) several women and children were killed because they were too near the target, then we must decide if the civilian casualties were acceptable "collateral damage."

Israel has a well earned reputation for being very tough in its responses to attacks but, also, in trying to act in accordance with humane principles, but, sometimes, more often than many would like, the lawful and strategically appropriate tough response is inhumane. I don't know where the line can or should be drawn. I remain convinced that Israel has a legal and moral right to exist and to defend itself. If your government decides to attack Israel then you, and your babe in arms, may have to pay a high rice for that decision - it isn't just soldiers who are burdened with an unlimited liability for politicians' actions.
 
But: "Therefore, just as water retains no constant shape, so in warfare there are no constant conditions ... whoever can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent, and thereby succeed in winning, may be called a heaven-born captain."
Sun Tzu


There must be another way, or other ways, to defeat the kinds of threats Israel faces from Hamas, Hezbollah and so forth: something other than killing women and children, satisfying though we know that to be ...

collateralDamage2.jpg

After the Dresden raid
 
The Covenant of Hamas 1988

http://middleeast.about.com/od/palestinepalestinians/a/me080106b.htm  Part 1
http://middleeast.about.com/od/palestinepalestinians/a/me080106c_4.htm  Part 2

An excerpt from the preamble:
Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors.

How do you make peace when one side has stated that they won't stop till the enemy is obliterated??

I will end my post with the following excerpt form Article 13, quite an interstinhg read. The bottom line is they won't accept peace till it's all their way.....Now to go and buy me a pair of rose colored glasses

[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion....
 
I'm not suggesting it's easy, Larry, maybe it's not even possible but ... Hamas has changed in ways we've discussed above. It is no longer just a movement that aims to destroy Israel; now it is, also, maybe even mainly, a political party that governs a place and which must conduct a foreign policy, of sorts. It, Hamas, has made some choices and they have consequences; it will have to make more and more, increasing complex, choices and they will also have more but less predictable consequences. Some of those consequences may open an as yet unseen "door" for a modification of tactics by one side or the other or both.
 
Hello ERC

I was actually replying to the 2 posts above.

However in respects to your answer I feel that there needs to be a change in attitude in the Hamas organization, and I don't see that happening for a couple generations. Or at least till such time as the "Hamas Covenant" is not dominant in the minds of the current "Elders" and has ceased to be indoctrinated into the minds of the current school generations, who just step up and fill the empty shoes with the same mind set.

I don't believe Israel is totally blame free either, however the old adage of "Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house" comes to mind.

later
Larry
 
But Israel put them in the internment camp that makes them radical in the first place. The Jewish state of Israel was wiped out in AD 70. Coming back 1878 years later and kicking out the current residents may fulfill their religious prophecy, but it is still wrong. Palestinians deserve a country and to be citizens. Wouldn't this make anyone want to resist? To call that terrorism is a bit sick.
 
Larry Strong said:
How do you make peace when one side has stated that they won't stop till the enemy is obliterated??

Kill them Remove them and replace them with someone more open to peaceful coexistence.

Larry Strong said:
I don't believe Israel is totally blame free either, however the old adage of "Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house" comes to mind.

Or perhaps don't throw stones when your neighbors have guided missiles.
 
Nemo888 said:
But Israel put them in the internment camp that makes them radical in the first place. The Jewish state of Israel was wiped out in AD 70. Coming back 1878 years later and kicking out the current residents may fulfill their religious prophecy, but it is still wrong. Palestinians deserve a country and to be citizens. Wouldn't this make anyone want to resist? To call that terrorism is a bit sick.


I'm sorry, Nemo but to suggest that Hamas and Hezbollah are anything but terrorists, based on their words and deeds is to deny reality.

Israel is not blameless and its methods are tough, maybe even counterproductive, but Israel is not a terrorist state.

The rights and wrongs of Zionism and of the Balfour Declaration and all that make for an interesting, albeit completely sterile, academic debate but the facts on the ground are:

1. Israel is there. It is a lawful member of the United Nations; and

2. Any attempt to change that situation by armed force will be, not might be, a crime under customary international law.
 
Nemo888 said:
But Israel put them in the internment camp that makes them radical in the first place. The Jewish state of Israel was wiped out in AD 70. Coming back 1878 years later and kicking out the current residents may fulfill their religious prophecy, but it is still wrong. Palestinians deserve a country and to be citizens. Wouldn't this make anyone want to resist? To call that terrorism is a bit sick.

"The Jews tried - twice - to rebel against Roman rule. The first Jewish rebellion, in AD 66-70, ended in massacre, the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem, and the mass suicide of the defenders of the Masada.

The second rebellion, in AD 132 (or 135? can't remember), was the last straw for the Roman authorities, who permanently exiled the Jews from their homeland. They were forced to scatter - the English translation of the Greek word Diaspora, which was used to describe the scattered state of the Jews from this point forward - throughout the ancient world and make their lives as a permanent minority in unfamiliar places.

After that, the land of Israel was controlled by the Canaanites, the Assyrians (northern part), the Egyptians, the Babylonians / Chaldean, the Persians, the Macedonians, the Romans, the Arabs, the Christians (parts of it), the Ottoman Turks, and the British."

Ahad Ha'am believed that, "the Moslems [of Palestine] are the ancient residents of the land ... who became Christians on the rise of Christianity and became Moslems on the arrival of Islam**." Israel Belkind, the founder of the Bilu movement also asserted that the Palestinian Arabs were the blood brothers of the Jews*. In his book on the Palestinians, "The Arabs in Eretz-Israel", Belkind advanced the idea that the complete dispersion of Jews out of the Land of Israel after the destruction of the Second Temple by the Roman emperor Titus is a "historic error" that must be corrected. While it dispersed much of the land's Jewish community around the world, those "workers of the land that remained attached to their land," i.e the Jews, stayed behind and were eventually converted to Christianity and then Islam.


*  Israel Belkind, "Arabs in Eretz Israel", Hermon Publishers, Tel Aviv, 1969, p.8
** Salim Tamari (Winter 2004). Lepers, Lunatics and Saints: The Nativist Ethnography of Tawfiq Canaan and his Jerusalem Circle

So why are the Jew's not allowed to return to their ansestral homelands??
 
Larry Strong said:
So why are the Jew's not allowed to return to their ansestral homelands??

A compelling point. We could almost call that, oh, 'right of return' or some such?
 
E.R. Campbell said:
....it isn't just soldiers who are burdened with an unlimited liability for politicians' actions.
I believe that, unlike here, Middle Eastern politicians are not merely aware of that, but intentionally use it for propaganda purposes, as has been discussed.

I also believe that Israeli fires are discriminate whereas Hamas' long history of rocket attacks, by virtue of relying on unguided weapons -- from Katyusha to "Qassam" to Fajr-5 -- are intended to cause indiscriminate casualties.

Yet those beliefs don't matter much here in the west. This week I happened to be at Carleton and Queen's Universities; in both places I saw protests with red, white, green, and black flags, vilifying Israel (both managed to squeeze in at least one anti-Harper sign too  ::)  ). Mind you, I suspect that illustrates the failings of our "institutions of higher learning" and a requirement to think, rather than the efficacy of Hamas' propaganda machine, but that's a completely separate topic.

Sorry Hamas apologists, but I think you're wrong on this one.
 
Back
Top