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14 Nov 12: Israel Launches Operations in Gaza

Journeyman said:
As noted in one of the previously-posted articles, this is likely the best Israel can hope for -- a few more years' breathing space.

Israel certainly doesn't want to occupy Gaza, with the attendant need to govern the place. I suspect that their intent is to strike very hard, break Palestinian toys, and withdraw...with a note pinned to the door: "fire more rockets and we do it all again; you know we're capable, and aren't concerned about international angst, so smarten up."

But Hamas won't smarten up, and so after a few years' grace, we can all just change the dates on these posts.


:goodpost:


A strategic victory is possible but I doubt the Israelis are sufficiently bloody minded to pursue it ~ the Arabs would be, but, not the Israelis; Gilad Sharon is the exception that proves the rule. A tactical victory will buy some relatively peaceful time during which Arabs will grow more restive and, maybe, that can be turned inwards causing a nice series of internecine wars and revolutions.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
:goodpost:


A strategic victory is possible but I doubt the Israelis are sufficiently bloody minded to pursue it ~ the Arabs would be, but, not the Israelis; Gilad Sharon is the exception that proves the rule. A tactical victory will buy some relatively peaceful time during which Arabs will grow more restive and, maybe, that can be turned inwards causing a nice series of internecine wars and revolutions.

Under what circumstances could a strategic victory be achieved even if sufficiently 'bloody minded'?  I can't imagine anything short of outright eliminationist policies that could eliminate the strategic threat presented to Israel. And that would bring its own greater strategic problems.
 
Two options are available as we have discussed. Strike quick and hard at the rocket launching sites and withdraw or an invade and hold approach. The latter would cause fewer casualties to the IDF and invade and hold approach would easily cost Israel hundreds of dead. But not as costly as an invasion of Lebanon. Short term gain or a long term solution ? I think the boil needs to be lanced. If you could destroy the Hamas armed wing, then if there are moderates in Gaza they might surface and administer the area preventing a return of the islamists. Not sure if this is practical or not.
 
Brihard said:
Israel cannot kill its way to Palestinians seeing Hamas as the bad guys. That's not a realistic strategy if the end state is 'peaceful coexistence'.

A vague and empty statement unsupported by history.  The very fact that war is seen as a viable means to pursue policy implies that a state can kill its way to it political ends.  War is a coercive instrument - for it to be of use, you have to be kill your way to an end.  We were more than able to kill our way to Germans seeing the Nazi party as bad guys.

There are numerous valid courses of action where Israel could achieve policy through overwhelming force; the trick is to ensure such strategies are linked and follow from realistic, pragmatic policy.
 
tomahawk6 said:
Two options are available as we have discussed. Strike quick and hard at the rocket launching sites and withdraw or an invade and hold approach. The latter would cause fewer casualties to the IDF and invade and hold approach would easily cost Israel hundreds of dead. But not as costly as an invasion of Lebanon. Short term gain or a long term solution ? I think the boil needs to be lanced. If you could destroy the Hamas armed wing, then if there are moderates in Gaza they might surface and administer the area preventing a return of the islamists. Not sure if this is practical or not.

You speak of 'the rocket launching sites' as if they are fixed infrastructure, when they are not. Israel has not succeeded in destroying the armed wing of Hamas in the past; why think they could do so now? They can just kick it back a couple of years again. If an approach of straightforward belligerence were going to work it would have already.

"Why do Palestinians who are not in Hamas join Hamas?"
"Why do Palestinians who are not in Hamas actively enable it?"
"Why do Palestinians who are not in Hamas tacitly support it?"
"Why do Palestinians who are not in Hamas not oppose it?"
"Who do outsiders who are not Palestinian support Hamas?"

Each its own question, each its own portion of overall strategy, each with different answers which each may individually may offer certain solutions that collectively either don't run together or that even conflict with each other.  But extremely rarely in history has a side been able to kill its way to the end of an insurgency.

infanteer said:
A vague and empty statement unsupported by history.  The very fact that war is seen as a viable means to pursue policy implies that a state can kill its way to it political ends.  War is a coercive instrument - for it to be of use, you have to be kill your way to an end.  We were more than able to kill our way to Germans seeing the Nazi party as bad guys.

There are numerous valid courses of action where Israel could achieve policy through overwhelming force; the trick is to ensure such strategies are linked and follow from realistic, pragmatic policy.

Surely you're not trying to compare the formal army of a nation state ca. 1940s with a modern insrugency that is in and of a somewhat supportive population? I don't beleive for a second that you are historically naive enough to think that 'we destroyed panzer divisions to beat Germany, thus if we kill enough insurgents we will defeat Hamas'. I know you're far more stute than that and am a little bit insulted that you're trying to blow this off with such grossly simplistic false analogy. I think what I'm saying on this merits a bit more than that.  My statement is not vague, it is generalist, and deliberately so- I have said straight out that I do not offer solutions to this, I'm merely pointing out that 'kill enough of them' has seldom worked even for states who had little reluctance to do so. The Soviets in Afghanistan, the French in Algeria... Killing the German army as a route to the population as bad guys is an irrelevant comparison; there is no 'great crime' being hidden from the Palestinians. they know EXACTLY what kind of pieces of shit Hamas are, and nonetheless either participate in, support, condone, or are silent about it sufficiently for Hamas to carry on.

Further still, comparing the destruction of a uniformed, identifiable army that is capable of wielding, with exactitude, the monopoly of armed force and that in almost no way blends with the civilian population, with an archetypal modern insurgency is grossly oversimplistic, and you know it to be. If we cannot militarily destroy insurgencies in Iraq or Afghanistan, why think we can do it in Gaza where they have far better human cover and concealment?

The only way Israel could military destroy Hamas sufficient to eliminate it as a threat would be through such wide scale and brutal application of force that none but the most extremist of westerners could still support Israel. It would be an historical irony of unparallelled proportions.

It may well be that the status quo is about as good as Israel can achieve, and so be it if so. But if one is going to believe that 'more force' will actually fix this against all evidence to the contrary I'm extremely interested to hear some reasoning and some suggested mechanism of how.
 
Brihard said:
Under what circumstances could a strategic victory be achieved even if sufficiently 'bloody minded'?  I can't imagine anything short of outright eliminationist policies that could eliminate the strategic threat presented to Israel. And that would bring its own greater strategic problems.


You answered you own question:

Brihard said:
...
The only way Israel could military destroy Hamas sufficient to eliminate it as a threat would be through such wide scale and brutal application of force that none but the most extremist of westerners could still support Israel. It would be an historical irony of unparallelled proportions.

It may well be that the status quo is about as good as Israel can achieve, and so be it if so. But if one is going to believe that 'more force' will actually fix this against all evidence to the contrary I'm extremely interested to hear some reasoning and some suggested mechanism of how.


And that why I say Israel lacks the bloody mindedness to pursue such a course and why Journeyman was correct.
 
Brihard said:
Surely you're not trying to compare the formal army of a nation state ca. 1940s with a modern insrugency that is in and of a somewhat supportive population?

Gaza in not an insurgency.  An insurgency is a condition within a state when a significant portion of the population violently resists the state's rule.  Just because Hamas utilizes guerrilla tactics as opposed to conventional ones doesn't mean it is an insurgency.

Guerrilla tactics do not make it invincible either.  It has a command structure, a supply network, and resources to prosecute its campaign.  What's more, this is pretty much a case of interstate conflict; as Sharon mentioned in his article, Gaza is a state with governing organizations, infrastructure, and services that are all possible targets in a coercive strategy.

Although concerned with insurgency, the principles in Wilf Owen's article here lay out the essential elements of how exhaustion works in strategy.

The only way Israel could military destroy Hamas sufficient to eliminate it as a threat would be through such wide scale and brutal application of force that none but the most extremist of westerners could still support Israel.

Explain.  Is there anything to support this assertion?  You could take your logic to say "The only way Israel could military destroy Syria sufficient to eliminate it as a threat would be through such wide scale and brutal application of force that none but the most extremist of westerners could still support Israel" and yet after being thrashed in 1973 to the point where the IDF ready to move into Damascus, Syria was sufficiently coerced to the point where the regime changed its policies (the same happened in Egypt).  Why would the ruling government of Hamas and the people of Gaza be exempt from this phenomenon? 

A simple question to ask is why are these problems happening in Gaza and not the West Bank?  The decision within Palestine to go to war with Israel is clearly not monolithic within Palestinian politics - there is a spectrum that would indicate that acceptable political ends for Israel are obtainable should Hamas be sufficiently weakened to permit Fatah to fill the void. 

Edited for clarity
 
Infanteer said:
Gaza in not an insurgency.  An insurgency is a condition within a state when a significant portion of the population violently resists the state's rule.  Just because Hamas utilizes guerrilla tactics as opposed to conventional ones doesn't mean it is an insurgency.

Guerrilla tactics do not make it invincible either.  It has a command structure, a supply network, and resources to prosecute its campaign.  What's more, this is pretty much a case of interstate conflict; as Sharon mentioned in his article, Gaza is a state with governing organizations, infrastructure, and services that are all possible targets in a coercive strategy.

Although concerned with insurgency, the principles in Wilf Owen's article here lay out the essential elements of how exhaustion works in strategy.

Explain.  Is there anything to support this assertion?  You could take your logic to say "The only way Israel could military destroy Syria sufficient to eliminate it as a threat would be through such wide scale and brutal application of force that none but the most extremist of westerners could still support Israel" and yet after being thrashed in 1973 to the point where the IDF ready to move into Damascus, Syria was sufficiently coerced to the point where the regime changed its policies (the same happened in Egypt).  Why would the ruling government of Hamas and the people of Gaza be exempt from this phenomenon?

I utilize the term 'insurgency' because there simply is not a precise enough term in general use to explain precisely what the situation is; the allusion to guerilla/terrorist tactics and the the underlying popular support was what I was aiming for. I take it as a given that everyone active in this thread is sufficiently informed on the reality of the conflict from both sides that I can pick one of a number of inevitably somewhat imprecise terms and go with it. The specific choice of wording is not key to my point, so I won't divert down the path of squaring that one up. Suffice it that we all know to what I refer.

I am not claiming that Hamas is invicinble. Rather that Palestinian belligerence has enough energy entering into the equation continuously (fresh hate from growing youth; external financial and logistical support) that Israel has not appeared able to sufficiently attrit it to force them to give up.

Your Syria analogy- you're again looking at a threat that was contingent on conventional military force to achieve its objective. The Syrian strategoic threat WAS the Syrian military capacity; Israel destroyed it, consequentially the threat was neutralized. The strategic threat in Gaza, however, is an inexhaustible (yes, I choose the word deliberately) supply of pissed off young men who have sufficient ideologically extremist backers to keep them in the tools and resources to fight.

You may hypothesize that the Gaza leadership is vulnerable to military pressure completely coercing them into cessation of hostilities. First off, history suggests through experience that it is not, and second it presumes that the Hamas proto-state has a monopoly of armed force. They do not; their substantial control over armed force is contingent upon their domestic political legitimacy and credibility, which in turn is contingent in part on their ability to be able to be seen as a credible resistor to Israel. They cave, popular support shrinks massively and people find a new martyr's brigade to launch rockets instead.

Don't get me wrong: Where concrete threats are identified, I am all for discriminate, proportional, timely, and lethal application of force in order to kill it. And yes, some collateral damage may happen in the isntance,a nd will happen if it's repeated enough. I acknowledge that cold hard reality is a constraint on idealism. But those are tactical matters; the strategic issue must be that of eliminating the fuel from the fire- I would argue on both sides.
 
This is a war on many fronts: Gaza, itself, is the obvious one, but Amman, Cairo and Istanbul are also targets, albeit of a different sort: Israel wants to convince its neighbours that it is doing some "good housekeeping" for everyone's benefit. Washington is, of course, another front in this war - as is always the case. But so are New York and London, the HQs of the mainstream global media, like AP which file stories like this that headline the number of children killed. It is the media war - which many Israelis see as the media's war on Israel - that may provide the decisive battle. US policy is informed by public opinion and US public opinion is informed by television. It is not, in my opinion, a matter of media bias, rather it is a matter of "if it bleeds, it leads" and Hamas is better at getting its "bleeding" out with graphic images that work well on TV.

This is the sixth day of the war ~ the world will start to get impatient; Israel, global opinion will say, has had enough time to "punish" Hamas. If Israel is going to blitz Hamas' rocket launcher sites in Gaza then now is the time. I think the outlines of a ceasefire agreement are already in place; Reuters reports that "Izzat Risheq, a close aide to Meshaal, wrote in a Facebook message that Hamas would agree to a ceasefire only after Israel "stops its aggression, ends its policy of targeted assassinations and lifts the blockade of Gaza" [while, for Israel] "Vice Prime Minister Moshe Yaalon wrote on Twitter: "If there is quiet in the south and no rockets and missiles are fired at Israel's citizens, nor terrorist attacks engineered from the Gaza Strip, we will not attack."
 
Brihard said:
I utilize the term 'insurgency' because there simply is not a precise enough term in general use to explain precisely what the situation is; the allusion to guerilla/terrorist tactics and the the underlying popular support was what I was aiming for.

Why is "interstate conflict" not a precise enough term?  The definition of insurgency is not imprecise either, it is clearly defined in numerous manuals and it is clear that the situation in Gaza is not an insurgency.  Specific wording is important as it is essential to understanding what is really at play here.

The Syrian strategoic threat WAS the Syrian military capacity; Israel destroyed it, consequentially the threat was neutralized. The strategic threat in Gaza, however, is an inexhaustible (yes, I choose the word deliberately) supply of pissed off young men who have sufficient ideologically extremist backers to keep them in the tools and resources to fight...

You may hypothesize that the Gaza leadership is vulnerable to military pressure completely coercing them into cessation of hostilities. First off, history suggests through experience that it is not, and second it presumes that the Hamas proto-state has a monopoly of armed force. They do not; their substantial control over armed force is contingent upon their domestic political legitimacy and credibility, which in turn is contingent in part on their ability to be able to be seen as a credible resistor to Israel. They cave, popular support shrinks massively and people find a new martyr's brigade to launch rockets instead.

How is a manpower pool a "strategic threat", and what leads you to believe that it is inexhaustible?  There are 1.7 million people in Gaza, and not all of them are fighters.  That tells me that the pool isn't inexhaustible.  Also, define "strategic threat", because I don't know what you mean by this - it goes back to terminology and being precise.  I'd argue that the threat in the current situation is indirect fire attacks, and that there are very concrete ways to deal with the threat; "pissed off young men" don't simply generate rocket forces.  In fact, I don't think Israel cares about pissed-off young men.

As to my hypothesis, I do make it and I back it with historically valid examples.  Here's another one.  Despite the strategic confusion of 2006 and numerous operational shortcomings (not all accurately analyzed in Western sources), the IDF did significant damage to Hezbollah in Lebanon; this is born out by the fact that since 2006, there has been no significant issues on border with Lebanon and that they were able to move significant forces south to conduct Operation CAST LEAD.  CAST LEAD was limited in its aims; I don't see how an expanded operation could not have the potential to generate similar effects on Hamas' military capacity.  Aside from generating some more pissed off young men, going in and breaking a lot of **** can be an effective coersive strategy provided it is framed by the right policies.

It goes back to my question above - why is this happening in Gaza and not the West Bank?  Military action is part of the package to reduce the role of Hamas and their standing amongst the Palestinian people.  Pissed off young men have, throughout history, been led by old men.  Old men have a stake in things like running water and electricity, or they lose to other old men who do.

To wit, you seem to be implying that military force will not work in Gaza, but you haven't provided anything to back your argument up aside from claims that the Palestinians are unique amongst all political entities in that they cannot be coerced through force.
 
Walter Russell Mead opines that the big winner is the Israeli defence industry because its missile defence technology will be in global demand.
 
Infanteer said:
Why is "interstate conflict" not a precise enough term?  The definition of insurgency is not imprecise either, it is clearly defined in numerous manuals and it is clear that the situation in Gaza is not an insurgency.  Specific wording is important as it is essential to understanding what is really at play here.

Hard to call Gaza a sufficiently effective or existant 'state' for 'interstate conflict' to be much more accurate a term. The degree of political autonomy it enjoys certainly makes it 'something', yet I'm not aware of any real autonomous state ever having existed quite so under the heel of another nation as Gaza does given the Israel blockade. Hamas's control over the monopoly of force is extremely tenuous as best, and I maintain that they can retain it only so long as they remain actively belligerent towards Israel. That's the most anomalous foundation of a state I've ever seen. However, though problematic, I'll concede that it's a better way to describe it than 'insurgency', though I believe that my choice still better reflects the political nuance of the violence inasmuch as Israel has enough power to be the dominant political-military order in the area, even if they do not exert direct control over Gaza itself. These are not 'right/wrong' judgement son my part- just my read of what I perceive of as the facts.

Infanteer said:
How is a manpower pool a "strategic threat", and what leads you to believe that it is inexhaustible?  There are 1.7 million people in Gaza, and not all of them are fighters.  That tells me that the pool isn't inexhaustible.  Also, define "strategic threat", because I don't know what you mean by this - it goes back to terminology and being precise.  I'd argue that the threat in the current situation is indirect fire attacks, and that there are very concrete ways to deal with the threat; "pissed off young men" don't simply generate rocket forces.  In fact, I don't think Israel cares about pissed-off young men.

When a substantial portion of a population wishes violence against you, and when the political power depends wholly on maintaining that, and when considerable resources are dedicated to, one way or another, bringing harm to your country how is a pool of those desiring and prepared to be combatants *not* a strategic threat? The pool is inexhaustable inasmuch as it regenerates as quickly as Israel can kill them. Classic dynamic of the death of fighters fertilizing the extremism of the youth. I doubt you'll argue me on that one when we see the Hamas propaganda targeted blatantly at children for the cultivation of the martyrdom cult?

Indirect fire attacks are the *tactical* threat. They are the specific method by which that political ideology, carried out by human actors - the angry young men - is put into play. If a man points a gun at you is the threat the gun or the man? I know which one I would intend to neutralize. It's a simplistic analogy, but I believe it works. I think Israel cares very much about pissed off young men, because that is for the most part who wants to kill Israelis, and who will risk their own lives and theirs of others to do it. The old 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' thing.

Infanteer said:
As to my hypothesis, I do make it and I back it with historically valid examples.  Here's another one.  Despite the strategic confusion of 2006 and numerous operational shortcomings (not all accurately analyzed in Western sources), the IDF did significant damage to Hezbollah in Lebanon; this is born out by the fact that since 2006, there has been no significant issues on border with Lebanon and that they were able to move significant forces south to conduct Operation CAST LEAD.  CAST LEAD was limited in its aims; I don't see how an expanded operation could not have the potential to generate similar effects on Hamas' military capacity.  Aside from generating some more pissed off young men, going in and breaking a lot of **** can be an effective coersive strategy provided it is framed by the right policies.

It goes back to my question above - why is this happening in Gaza and not the West Bank?  Military action is part of the package to reduce the role of Hamas and their standing amongst the Palestinian people.  Pissed off young men have, throughout history, been led by old men.  Old men have a stake in things like running water and electricity, or they lose to other old men who do.

To wit, you seem to be implying that military force will not work in Gaza, but you haven't provided anything to back your argument up aside from claims that the Palestinians are unique amongst all political entities in that they cannot be coerced through force.

Respectfully, what examples have you cited that proved accurate? The war against Hamas militants is not akin to a conventional war where the army is of such a nature and the battlespace is such that that army can be destroyed easily and not easily replenished. Yes, Hamas's army is certainly more than just those men- their weapons, kit, logistics and infrastructure absolutely count, and that is why I have referred to the clock being set back a couple years. Don't think for a second that I have a problem with Hamas' military capabilities being degraded, because I don't.

As for military force not working in Gaza- I'm not talking in the immediate sense, I'm talking in the long term. I beleive you're minimizing what was done in Operation Cast Lead. Just look at how much of the Palestinian socioeconomic infrastructure was damaged or destroyed. Look at the ratios of fatalities. Look at the numbers involved. The amount of ordnance fired. The tens of thousands of buildings badly damaged or destroyed. That's a pretty big deal. Did it slow Hamas down? Yes. Did it defeat the threat? If it had we'd not be having this discussion today. Had it been three times as large an op we'd maybe be having the discussion a year from now; how many more civilians would have died to achieve that?

I have not claimed that the Palestinians cannot be coerced through force. I am saying the real long term strategic threat - that being visceral hatred of Israel to the point where Palestinians will give up their own lives to take Israeli ones - has never proven to be defeated by those means. Without fail others step up, and become the newest proxies for Iran, Syria, or whomever funnels arms and funds. And why Gaza versus the west bank? Terrain, largely. Settlements are far more isolated, the ground and passage thereon is much easier to control, the easy access to Egypt / he Med isn't there. Population density is of course also a factor- the degree of desperation in the West Bank is lesser than in Gaza, and it is not such a breeding ground for violence. Those who really want to fight stand a better chance doing it from Gaza.

At the end of the day we're sitting here watching the same crap happen again on both sides. Why believe that now all of a sudden the same old approaches will make any difference? It's just part of the cyclical violence that many insist on seizing upon in each instance as a new and unique impending defeat of the terrorists. It's not though. We'll be having this conversation yet again in 4 or 5 years.
 
I read tonight an article about Jacksonian foreign policy by Walter Mead,with a tie in to the present crisis in Gaza and for any other flashpoint as well I suspect. Its rather long so I will just quote a few excerpts.

http://denbeste.nu/external/Mead01.html

For the first Jacksonian rule of war is that wars must be fought with all available force. The use of limited force is deeply repugnant. Jacksonians see war as a switch that is either "on" or "off." They do not like the idea of violence on a dimmer switch. Either the stakes are important enough to fight for—in which case you should fight with everything you have—or they are not, in which case you should mind your own business and stay home. To engage in a limited war is one of the costliest political decisions an American president can make—neither Truman nor Johnson survived it.

The second key concept in Jacksonian thought about war is that the strategic and tactical objective of American forces is to impose our will on the enemy with as few American casualties as possible. The Jacksonian code of military honor does not turn war into sport. It is a deadly and earnest business. This is not the chivalry of a medieval joust, or of the orderly battlefields of eighteenth-century Europe. One does not take risks with soldiers’ lives to give a "fair fight." Some sectors of opinion in the United States and abroad were both shocked and appalled during the Gulf and Kosovo wars over the way in which American forces attacked the enemy from the air without engaging in much ground combat. The "turkey shoot" quality of the closing moments of the war against Iraq created a particularly painful impression. Jacksonians dismiss such thoughts out of hand. It is the obvious duty of American leaders to crush the forces arrayed against us as quickly, thoroughly and professionally as possible.

Jacksonian opinion takes a broad view of the permissible targets in war. Again reflecting a very old cultural heritage, Jacksonians believe that the enemy’s will to fight is a legitimate target of war, even if this involves American forces in attacks on civilian lives, establishments and property. The colonial wars, the Revolution and the Indian wars all give ample evidence of this view, and General William Tecumseh Sherman’s March to the Sea showed the degree to which the targeting of civilian morale through systematic violence and destruction could, to widespread popular applause, become an acknowledged warfighting strategy, even when fighting one’s own rebellious kindred.

Probably as a result of frontier warfare, Jacksonian opinion came to believe that it was breaking the spirit of the enemy nation, rather than the fighting power of the enemy’s armies, that was the chief object of warfare. It was not enough to defeat a tribe in battle; one had to "pacify" the tribe, to convince it utterly that resistance was and always would be futile and destructive. For this to happen, the war had to go to the enemy’s home. The villages had to be burned, food supplies destroyed, civilians had to be killed. From the tiniest child to the most revered of the elderly sages, everyone in the enemy nation had to understand that further armed resistance to the will of the American people—whatever that might be—was simply not an option.



 
Brihard said:
Hard to call Gaza a sufficiently effective or existant 'state' for 'interstate conflict' to be much more accurate a term.

It has an elected parliament and a system of governance administered by Hamas.  It has organized military and para-military forces (indeed, Hamas took control of Gaza through use of its organized Qazzam Brigades).  Hard to say what else it could be besides a state.

When a substantial portion of a population wishes violence against you, and when the political power depends wholly on maintaining that, and when considerable resources are dedicated to, one way or another, bringing harm to your country how is a pool of those desiring and prepared to be combatants *not* a strategic threat?

You still haven't defined "strategic threat".  What are you trying to convey by adding the term "strategy" to the word threat?

How is "people not liking you" an actual threat vice simply a factor in national will?  Most of the countries around Israel have populations that still want to see it destroyed, but they have not posed any real threat to Israel since 1973.

Respectfully, what examples have you cited that proved accurate?

The U.S. South in 1865.  Germany 1945.  Hezbollah 2006.  I can keep going through the books to show examples of where strategy served as a useful means for coercive policy.  There were a lot of secessionists, Nazis and Hezbollah personnel left after these conflicts that hated the victor, but it didn't stop coercion from working to some extent.

I've made this argument because you claimed that "Israel cannot kill its way to victory" when clearly history demonstrates that nations have killed their way to victory.

The war against Hamas militants is not akin to a conventional war where the army is of such a nature and the battlespace is such that that army can be destroyed easily and not easily replenished.

Explain.  That's not an argument that this would appear to support.
 
I'm curious to see what Canada will do, especially after their new negotiations.
 
Millions of hacking attempts target Israel government websites
By Steven Scheer, Reuters
Article Link

JERUSALEM - More than 44 million hacking attempts have been made on Israeli government websites since Wednesday when Israel began its Gaza air strikes, the government said on Sunday.

Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz said just one hacking attempt was successful on a site he did not want to name, but it was up and running after 10 minutes of downtime.

Typically, there are a few hundred hacking attempts a day on Israeli sites, the ministry said.

Attempts on defence-related sites have been the highest, while 10 million attempts have been made on the site of Israel’s president, 7 million on the Foreign Ministry and 3 million on the site of the prime minister.

A ministry spokesman said while the attacks have come from around the world, most have been from Israel and the Palestinian territories.

“The ministry’s computer division will continue to block the millions of cyber attacks,” Steinitz said. “We are enjoying the fruits of our investment in recent years in developing computerized defence systems.”


Steinitz has instructed his ministry to operate in emergency mode to counter attempts to undermine government sites.

Both sides in the Gaza conflict, but particularly Israel, are embracing the social media as one of their tools of warfare. The Israeli Defense Force has established a presence on nearly every platform available while Palestinian militants are active on Twitter.

“The war is taking place on three fronts. The first is physical, the second is on the world of social networks and the third is cyber,” said Carmela Avner, Israel’s chief information officer.

Last month, U.S. Defence Secretary Leon Panetta said cyberspace is the battlefield of the future, with attackers already going after banks and other financial systems. U.S. banks have been under sustained attack by suspected Iranian hackers thought to be responding to economic sanctions aimed at forcing Tehran to negotiate over its nuclear programme.
end
 
A retired Israeli diplomat discusses the shape of an Egyptian brokered peace in this article which is reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions of the Copyright Act from Project Syndicate:

http://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/egypt-s-efforts-to-broker-a-ceasefire-in-gaza-by-itamar-rabinovich
Egypt the Peacemaker?

Itamar Rabinovich
Itamar Rabinovich, a former ambassador of Israel to the United States (1993-1996), is currently based at Tel Aviv University, New York University, and the Brookings Institution.

Nov 19, 2012

TEL AVIV – Before the current fighting between Israel and Hamas in Gaza escalates further, a ceasefire must be negotiated. Of course, like previous ceasefires, any truce is likely to be temporary, inevitably undermined by the forces that perpetuate Israel’s armed conflict with Hamas. Nonetheless, with Syria consumed in civil war and the wider Middle East already unsteady, a ceasefire is essential both for saving lives and preserving today’s uneasy regional peace.

Much depends on Egypt, which is best placed to broker an agreement. But assessing the prospects of any diplomatic effort requires understanding the protagonists’ perspectives and agendas.

Israel does not have a comprehensive policy toward Gaza. Former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon took a courageous step by withdrawing unilaterally from Gaza and dismantling the Israeli settlements there. But he fell ill before these measures could be fitted into a larger effort to address the Palestinian issue.

His successor, Ehud Olmert, began negotiating a final-status agreement with the Palestinian Authority’s president, Mahmoud Abbas. But this did nothing to end the violence emanating from Gaza, which has effectively seceded from the Palestinian Authority and become a Hamas-controlled proto-state. Israel’s Operation Cast Lead in the winter of 2008-2009 re-established deterrence and brought a period of relative calm; but it has been clear since the start of 2012 that the parties were once again on a collision course.

During his first term as Israel’s prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu refused to continue to negotiate with the Palestinian Authority on Olmert’s terms, and never considered holding talks with Hamas. He agreed to swap Palestinian prisoners for an abducted soldier, Gilad Shalit; but, for Netanyahu, as for most Israelis, negotiating with an organization whose blatantly anti-Semitic charter rejects Israel’s right to exist is pointless.

From Netanyahu’s point of view, the Gaza problem has no satisfactory solution. His aim is to obtain and maintain calm along the border. Israel provides electricity, water, and passage to Gaza, but also maintains a siege intended to prevent imports of larger, more lethal weapons. Israeli leaders were aware of Hamas’s buildup of medium-range missiles, mostly smuggled through Sinai in underground tunnels, but continue to argue that, absent the siege, Iran and others would supply more (and more sophisticated) weapons.

In fact, Israel discovered over the last few years that Gaza contained enough rockets and missiles to paralyze its south. Major Israeli cities were hit several times. During Operation Cast Lead, rockets struck perilously close to Tel Aviv and Ben Gurion Airport. For Israeli leaders, it was only a matter of time before Tel Aviv could and would be hit.

For its part, Hamas, the Muslim Brotherhood’s Palestinian branch, seeks to consolidate its control over Gaza and use it as a base from which to take control of the West Bank and the Palestinian national movement. This outcome would be comparable to the Brotherhood’s takeover in Egypt, further establishing its ascendancy in the region.

Recent events appear to have emboldened Hamas. Although the conflict between Iran and its Sunni rivals and the Syrian civil war forced it to loosen ties with Iran and Syria and move into the Sunni fold, in many respects this has been a comfortable shift. Hamas feels more confident next to an Egypt dominated by its parent movement. The Emir of Qatar paid a visit to Gaza as a reward for Hamas’s break with Iran and left a check.

But Hamas is not alone in Gaza. Its hegemony is challenged by the more radical Islamic Jihad (which remains allied with Iran) and a host of Salafi and jihadi groups, some connected to radical elements in Sinai, which complicates Hamas’s relations with Egypt. Moreover, these groups have frequently initiated attacks on Israel from Gaza or through Sinai, generating cycles of violence that have embarrassed Hamas.

At the same time, pressure from these more radical groups may have forced Hamas itself to become more aggressive in recent months, perhaps bolstered by the knowledge that its arsenal of dozens of Fajr-5 rockets could hit the Tel Aviv area should Israel retaliate on a larger scale. The change in Egypt’s politics and policies had a similar effect: Hamas calculated that Israel would not jeopardize its fragile relationship with Egypt by launching another ground operation in Gaza.

Hamas was taken by surprise when Israel attacked, killing its military leader, Ahmed al-Jabari, and destroying most of its Fajr-5 arsenal. It responded with massive shelling of southern Israel, and managed to send several missiles toward Tel Aviv and one toward Jerusalem. Air raid sirens were finally heard in Israel’s two largest cities.

In response, Israel is visibly preparing for a large-scale ground operation. There is no appetite in Israel for a second Operation Cast Lead; but nothing less than a stable, long-lasting ceasefire is acceptable.

Such a truce is possible. Israel’s assault scored impressive initial successes, while Hamas can take pride in having reached Tel Aviv with its missiles, an achievement that eluded Hezbollah in the 2006 Lebanon War.

Moreover, Egypt, Hamas’s patron and senior ally, maintains a relationship and channels of communication with Israel, and does not want to sever all ties – not least because to do so would provoke a confrontation with the United States, which underwrites the Egyptian army.

In fact, Egyptian President Mohamed Morsi is seeking more financial aid from the US and the International Monetary Fund, and wants his coming visit to Washington, DC, to be a success. He also wants to restore Egypt’s position as a major regional force. Playing the peacemaker would serve him well on all counts.

So Morsi is juggling. He has denounced and warned Israel, recalled Egypt’s ambassador to Tel Aviv, and sent his prime minister to Gaza. But, so far, he has not crossed a single red line.

There is little time to act. More fighting will bring additional actors into the picture (including Turkey). If the US and Europe choose to remain inactive, they must at least encourage Egypt to play its role.

Egypt’s major obstacle is Hamas’s insistence on an end to the Israeli siege and targeted killings as part of a ceasefire agreement. The challenge for Egyptian leaders is to persuade Hamas to settle on lesser terms without further fighting.


I think the point about Turkey acting is important. I've been guessing, for some time now, that Turkey is changing direction: away from Europe and the US led West in general and towards a new, leadership position in the Muslim world. In terms of leadership I think we are dealing with a "zero sum gain:" if Turkey gains influence it must come at the expense of Egypt.
 
According to Anderson Cooper of CNN who is reporting from Gaza, these are outbound missiles, from Gaza to Israel:

A8EPj5CCAAAwCOk.jpg


Personally, I find it hard to blame Israel for responding, violently, to this sort of thing.

That's why I hope tomahawk6 is right and Israel will, very soon, before a ceasefire can be implemented, attack, with speed and violence, to destroy the launchers and missile stocks and, concomitantly, engage (euphemism for kill) many, many fighting age (15-35 years old) men.
 
Both the IDF and the National Post are reporting that the Hamas leaders targeted by Israel are hiding in the Gaza Media Centre, itself, and in other buildings occupied by major Western media outlets: good tactic, the media hates being attacked.

gaza-15.jpg

A member of civil defence inspects the damage after an Israeli air strike on a floor in a building that also houses media offices in Gaza City
November 19, 2012.                                                                                                                                              REUTERS/Mohammed Salem
Source: National Post


It looks, to my old eyes, as if the IDF targeted a specific room. The National Post report says that "It’s the second strike on the building in two days. The Hamas TV station, Al Aqsa, is located on the top floor ... Islamic Jihad has sent a text message to reporters saying that Ramez Harb was killed in the strike Monday. Harb is a leading figure in their militant wing, the Al Quds Brigades."
 
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