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Our North - SSE Policy Update Megathread

‘subsistence farming’

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: In the Arctic ????

Little green men would stick out, out there, like little green men from Mars would back here.

Besides, it is simply impossible up the Arctic to (1) occupy every single island that's about or (2) move large population, or even small population to "settle" areas.

P.S. number 2 has been tried before, and it was a disaster: Inuit High Arctic Relocations in Canada
 
:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: In the Arctic ????
Hence my quotes
Little green men would stick out, out there, like little green men from Mars would back here.
If you look at the Russian north and the Canadian north, you could drop people from one area into the other without any significant change to their lives


Besides, it is simply impossible up the Arctic to (1) occupy every single island that's about or (2) move large population, or even small population to "settle" areas.
No disagreement - but you don’t need to occupy everything up there to have a presence.
P.S. number 2 has been tried before, and it was a disaster: Inuit High Arctic Relocations in Canada
Arguably the difference in climate is actually fairly pronounced, and it’s not a shift from similar latitudes.

In order to make the northernmost areas practical, an ass ton of infrastructure needs to be built.
 
The Canadian North is a lot harsher at the same latitudes due to the Jet Stream. People can live in places like Murmansk because the climate is less extreme than in places like Winnipeg.
 

Inuit Circumpolar Council​

United Voice of the Arctic​

Founded in 1977 by the late Eben Hopson of Barrow, Alaska, the Inuit Circumpolar Council (ICC) has flourished and grown into a major international non-government organization representing approximately 180,000 Inuit of Alaska, Canada, Greenland, and Chukotka (Russia).

If China took an interest in the Arctic and decided to politically support the Inuit Circumpolar Council, while promising to make those 180,000 Inuit very rich, does anybody want to bet they wouldn't get any takers?

Even a few would establish the basis for hybrid engagement, commercially and militarily.

And a combination of cultural affinity and the relations of many west coast tribes with the Crown might also provide some interesting footholds.

Genetics, language, culture and an antipathy to settler colonialists, in particular the British Crown, would make for an interesting propaganda campaign.

....

As Kevin suggests this is not a matter of a D-Day invasion of Greenland. It is, to my mind, a wearing campaign akin to the steady drip of water, or the infliction of a thousand cuts.

....

If you want a couple of real world examples


Chagos freed, sun finally sets on the British Empire​

By Prabhash Ranjan
Oct 12, 2024 08:15 PM IST

While diplomacy is critical, the UK’s decision to hand over the sovereignty to Mauritius over the Chagos Islands couldn’t have come through without the ICJ decision and the use of international law by Mauritius​



 
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The Canadian North is a lot harsher at the same latitudes due to the Jet Stream. People can live in places like Murmansk because the climate is less extreme than in places like Winnipeg.

That explains why Oslo, Stockholm and Helsinki are at roughly the same latitude as the southern boundaries of the Yukon, Northwest and Nunavut Territories and there are very few communities in Canada of any size as far north as the Peace River area.
 
The Canadian North is a lot harsher at the same latitudes due to the Jet Stream. People can live in places like Murmansk because the climate is less extreme than in places like Winnipeg.

The Inuit and the Sami are different people. Murmansk and the Kola are Sami country. The Arctic Maritime is Inuit country.

The Inuit are hunters that subsist on seals and whales and other marine mammals. They share common digestive characteristics with their dogs and the polar bears. All of them have accommodated a high fat diet, rich in Vitamins A and D, that can be digested and enjoyed cold, appropriate in that there is a distinct shortage of fuel.

The Sami are nomadic pastoralists that have domesticated the caribou, or reindeer. Their forebears, like the Dene, hunted the caribou when both the Sami and the caribou could range widely. Pastoralists, or subsistence agriculturists, demonstrated that a small amount of land could support a larger population. They, and their lifestyle spread and put pressure on the hunters. The hunters adapted and became pastoralists.

The digestive system that ties the Inuit to the whales and seals is also found to be genetically linked to both the Innu of Labrador and the whale hunting tribes of the Pacific Northwest that also subsist on salmon and candlefish.

....

Up the top of Greenland there is a place called Independence Fjord. It is at 82N. Alert is at 82.5N.

Independence I was a culture of Paleo-Eskimos who lived in northern Greenland and the Canadian Arctic between 2400 and 1900 BC.

There has been much debate among scholars on when Independence I culture disappeared, and, therefore, there is a margin of uncertainty with the dates.

The culture is named after Independence Fjord, which is a fjord located in Peary Land. The Independence I people lived at the same time as the Saqqaq culture of southern Greenland. Independence I culture was followed by Independence II culture, which had a similar geographical extent, and lasted from the 8th century BC, roughly 600 years after the disappearance of Independence I. The Independence I occupation of northern Greenland appears to have been much more extensive than that of Independence II.

Independence I alongside Saqqaq culture are considered to be the earliest known cultures in Greenland. The first Palaeo-Eskimo migrants are thought to have migrated from the Canadian High Arctic and have a connection to the Arctic small tool tradition

Independence II was a Paleo-Eskimo culture that flourished in northern and northeastern Greenland from around 700 to 80 BC, north and south of the Independence Fjord. The Independence II culture existed in roughly the same areas of Greenland as the Independence I culture, which became extinct six centuries before the beginning of Independence II.

Independence II is attested in northern Greenland by settlements on central Peary Land. There, it is estimated that the Independence II population was of no more than four to six families, and that it must therefore have been in contact with people of Ellesmere island in Canada or with people in north-eastern Greenland.

It has been argued that there is virtually no difference in the material cultures of Independence II and the contemporary Dorset culture in southern Greenland, locally known as Dorset I. Those who lump these two entities together refer to them jointly as Greenlandic Dorset.<Unlike Independence II, to the south, Dorset I persisted to at least AD 800.


The Inuit forebears (Paleo-Eskimos), when struggling for resources as the world got warmer did not follow the sun to green pastures. They went north with their dogs, into the dark and followed the polar bears to find seals and whales. They don't make Vitamin D from the sun. They eat their Vitamin D from the liver of their prey.


That dietary restriction separates the peoples of the Arctic Small Tool Tradition from Muesli Munchers of the south.

....

Canadians look south to the sun and the cornfields. The Inuit look north. Where our southern culture sees barrenlands their northern culture perceives the environment differently. When we relocated Inuit north it wasn't the lack of corn that caused them problems. The problem was they didn't know the local waters and couldn't find fish, seals, whales or bears. Historically they would have arrived at places like Grise Fjord by following that food to Grise Fjord.

.....

The point is that there is a massive cultural divide that separates the northerners from the southerners. It ties the northerners together across international boundaries and separates them from the southerners globally. Canada is particularly vulnerable politically as a result of this divide.

Personal opinion: Canada needs to be seen as a better patron of the Northerners, those that live off of seal, salmon and caribou, than China. Better that we be perceived as making them rich, healthy and secure. In return for access to their land and resources.
 
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For further reference in the Latitude discussion:

My hometown of Ayr, on the west coast of southern Scotland, just south of Glasgow, is at 55.5N.

Edmonton is at 53.5 N.
Fort McMurray is at 56.5 N.

They grow ornamental palm trees in Ayr gardens.
 
Further to latitude -

Prince Rupert is south of Ayr at 54N
Ketchikan is about the same latitude as Ayr at 55N.
 
I seem to keep posting this image or a variant of it.

1728751792842.png

I remind people that the edge of the ice is rich hunting and fishing grounds accessible to people with dogsleds and kayaks, umiaks and knarrs.

And again I remind people that the dog sled is still a viable means of transport for long hauls in the north.

The distance from Nordkapp (71N) across the Gulf Stream waters to the edge of the ice at the Svalbard Islands (74N to 81N) is about 400 km. As short hop by dory, CB90 or helicopter.

The distance from Svalbard to Independence Fjord is 700 km. And from Independence Fjord to Alert is 500 km.

The Iditarod is 1600 km and the course record is 7 days and 15 hours.

The Sirius Patrol covers 16,000 km by dog sled (2100 km point to point)

patrolling is also conducted by boat during the summer months, where the Northeast coast of Greenland is reasonably ice-free. In the winter months, though, patrolling is done by dog sled, in two-man teams who often spend months at the time on the ice, without contact with other humans.

The 26 months are spent patrolling the vast Sirius AO. As indicated above, patrols are conducted by dog sled in the winter months, where the two-man patrols often find themselves alone for 4-5 months at a time, with only themselves and their sled dogs for company, along with the occasional polar bear. Each two-man team is always composed of one ‘old’ member, who is serving his second year, and one ‘new’ member, serving his first year. This ensures that experience is handed over continuously as personnel are rotated. For a number of years, Sirius has maintained a patrol staff of just 12 personnel, amounting to six patrols each comprising 2 persons and 12 dogs.

The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol is stationed at Daneborg (74°11′N 20°08′W), and maintains personnel at Station Nord, Danmarkshavn, and Mestersvig.

The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol uses more than 50 depot huts scattered across the patrolled area. The depot huts are resupplied by small boats in the southern area, and by aircraft in the northern part.

The Sirius Dog Sled Patrol consists of six dog sled teams for the duration of the year, each consisting of two men, and 11 to 15 dogs. When traveling, each team carries approximately 350 to 500 kilograms (770 to 1,100 lb), depending on the distance to the next depot.


People live up there and exploit the ice. They travel, hunt and navigate in the dark. They have done for a very long time.

....

PS people from the Atlantic entered Canada's Eastern Arctic about the same time as the modern Inuit did.
 
PPS

The closest port to Nordkapp is Tromso (70N). Airport, deepwater port, European highway system. 600 km by road.
 
I seem to keep posting this image or a variant of it.

View attachment 88440

I remind people that the edge of the ice is rich hunting and fishing grounds accessible to people with dogsleds and kayaks, umiaks and knarrs.

And again I remind people that the dog sled is still a viable means of transport for long hauls in the north.

The distance from Nordkapp (71N) across the Gulf Stream waters to the edge of the ice at the Svalbard Islands (74N to 81N) is about 400 km. As short hop by dory, CB90 or helicopter.

The distance from Svalbard to Independence Fjord is 700 km. And from Independence Fjord to Alert is 500 km.

The Iditarod is 1600 km and the course record is 7 days and 15 hours.

The Sirius Patrol covers 16,000 km by dog sled (2100 km point to point)








People live up there and exploit the ice. They travel, hunt and navigate in the dark. They have done for a very long time.

....

PS people from the Atlantic entered Canada's Eastern Arctic about the same time as the modern Inuit did.
You are aware that most Inuit are more like us southerners than their ancestors these days, right?

Most Inuit in Canada haven't relied on hunting as their primary/sole food source for a long time, and that trend is continuing toward hunting as a supplement/traditional rite, not a primary means of survival.

Dog sleds are used, but mostly as a tradition, or in highly specialized roles like Sirius Patrol, and the vast majority of transport up there is snowmobiles and aircraft.

It seems to me like you have a very romanticized view of the north, which does not align with the reality that exists today.
 
The Canadian North is a lot harsher at the same latitudes due to the Jet Stream. People can live in places like Murmansk because the climate is less extreme than in places like Winnipeg.
I’m not talking Murmansk, and there are a lot of areas of Russia that are just as inhospitable as the Canadian Arctic.

More importantly they are more used to shitty infrastructure.
 
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That explains why Oslo, Stockholm and Helsinki are at roughly the same latitude as the southern boundaries of the Yukon, Northwest and Nunavut Territories and there are very few communities in Canada of any size as far north as the Peace River area.
Not really. Those areas have massive infrastructure to support the communities, as the countries are relatively small and don’t have areas that are easier to live in.

I’ve been to Baffin Island, Oslo, Stockholm, Helsinki and several places in between.
The main difference was that I had to live in a 10min arctic tent in Baffin Island and arrived via CT-1 and a Herc. The others I drove too.
 
You are aware that most Inuit are more like us southerners than their ancestors these days, right?

Most Inuit in Canada haven't relied on hunting as their primary/sole food source for a long time, and that trend is continuing toward hunting as a supplement/traditional rite, not a primary means of survival.

Dog sleds are used, but mostly as a tradition, or in highly specialized roles like Sirius Patrol, and the vast majority of transport up there is snowmobiles and aircraft.

It seems to me like you have a very romanticized view of the north, which does not align with the reality that exists today.

My sense is that culture endures long past the politics of the day.
 
My sense is that culture endures long past the politics of the day.
My argument is that technology has had more impact than politics.

The north is moving into the modern world in Canada, Alaska, and I suspect Greenland as well.

I'm guessing that it's more like modern the Scottish and Canadians of Scottish ancestry. I still love the pipes, and wear RCN tartan in my mess dress, but I don't care about Scottish independence, or any of the other concerns of modern Scottish people.
 
Genes change a lot slower than politics.


The northerners may be buying Corn Flakes but their bodies are not suited to the diet.

The same problem exists in much of the indigenous peoples of BC and the north.

It is their variant of the lactase enzyme problem. Because of that Dutchmen drink milk and Frenchmen eat cheese in which the lactose is fermented to lactic acid.

....

Those physical attributes are directly tied to culture.
 
Those cultural differences are exploitable divides.
 
My argument is that technology has had more impact than politics.

The north is moving into the modern world in Canada, Alaska, and I suspect Greenland as well.

I'm guessing that it's more like modern the Scottish and Canadians of Scottish ancestry. I still love the pipes, and wear RCN tartan in my mess dress, but I don't care about Scottish independence, or any of the other concerns of modern Scottish people.

I agree that technology is impacting the north - horsepower and diesel replacing dogs and blubber/muktuk.

But people, and dogs, change much slower.
 
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