Is bilingualism a ‘myth’? Poll shows divide between Quebec, other provinces

[daftandbarmy]

Quel suprise...

A new poll reveals a stark divide between Quebec and the rest of Canada about whether the country should be bilingual.

In a Leger poll conducted for The Canadian Press, only 43 per cent of respondents across Canada said they held a positive view of federal bilingualism — which was enshrined into law in 1969, making English and French Canada’s official languages. Eighteen per cent of respondents held a negative view.

However, in Quebec, 70 per cent of respondents said they view bilingualism positively; 11 per cent held the opposite opinion. Outside Quebec, the percentage of respondents who view official bilingualism positively was 35 per cent — and 23 per cent in Alberta, with Manitoba and Saskatchewan close behind.

Asked whether it’s important for Canada to remain officially bilingual, 83 per cent of Quebecers said it was; nearly half that number — 43 per cent — in the rest of Canada agreed.

Is bilingualism a ‘myth’? Poll shows divide between Quebec, other provinces | Globalnews.ca

In a Leger poll, only 43 per cent of respondents across Canada said they held a positive view of federal bilingualism — which was enshrined into law in 1969.

globalnews.ca

 

[Navy_Pete]

It's interesting to see that from QC where the province isn't actually bilingual officially, and there is a lot of unecessarily restrictive rules and pointless oversight on bilingual signs.

Ontario as a province isn't officially bilingual, but there are still a number of areas with large Franco populations where a lot of signs are actually bilingual anyway, so probably varies a bit based on regions within provinces.

I think there is a lot of value generally in multi-lingualism, but in reality in a lot of places Spanish, Mandarin etc may be a lot more useful as a second language depending on what you actually do.

 

[IKnowNothing]

It's interesting to see that from QC where the province isn't actually bilingual officially, and there is a lot of unecessarily restrictive rules and pointless oversight on bilingual signs.

It would be interesting to compare the QC support for national bilingualism to the support for French primacy/English exclusion in the Province itself.

 

[Good2Golf]

I think there is a lot of value generally in multi-lingualism, but in reality in a lot of places Spanish, Mandarin etc may be a lot more useful as a second language depending on what you actually do.

 

[The Bread Guy]

… I think there is a lot of value generally in multi-lingualism, but in reality in a lot of places Spanish, Mandarin etc may be a lot more useful as a second language depending on what you actually do.

Not to mention Cree, Ojibwa, Oji-Cree, Mohawk, etc.

 

[lenaitch]

Ontario as a province isn't officially bilingual, but there are still a number of areas with large Franco populations where a lot of signs are actually bilingual anyway, so probably varies a bit based on regions within provinces.

"Designated Areas" under the French Language Services Act:

Government services in French

Get services from the provincial government in French.

www.ontario.ca

 

[Eaglelord17]

Not to mention Cree, Ojibwa, Oji-Cree, Mohawk, etc.

Those are basically dead languages, the only aboriginal language still with wide usage (as far as I am aware, more than willing to be proven wrong) by any population is Inuktitut.

Not saying that to be offensive, just observing the actual practical usage of the language. My ancestral language is basically dead (Gaelic), doesn’t make much sense to be learning it other than for interests sake. More value in learning Inuktitut, French, or Hindi, than that.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Those are basically dead languages, the only aboriginal language still with wide usage (as far as I am aware, more than willing to be proven wrong) by any population is Inuktitut.

Not saying that to be offensive, just observing the actual practical usage of the language. My ancestral language is basically dead (Gaelic), doesn’t make much sense to be learning it other than for interests sake. More value in learning Inuktitut, French, or Hindi, than that.

In my part of the world, I see/hear a fair number of people coming to mid- to bigger-size communities to access services where they don’t speak English at all. YMMV according to the part of Canada you’re in, though.

 

[YZT580]

Trudeau senior missed a golden opportunity to contribute something worthwhile to Canada with the bilingual laws in 1969. Consider if the legislation had mandated that starting in 1970 all kindergarten classes would be bi-lingual. Then 1971 would extend to grade one. By 1983 every graduating student would be fluent in both. The Swedes did it in their schools with English. Education works.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Trudeau senior missed a golden opportunity to contribute something worthwhile to Canada with the bilingual laws in 1969. Consider if the legislation had mandated that starting in 1970 all kindergarten classes would be bi-lingual. Then 1971 would extend to grade one. By 1983 every graduating student would be fluent in both. The Swedes did it in their schools with English. Education works.

Except he didn’t have that power, the provinces control education. And most of them would have (and likely still would) resist that requirement. Substantial increase in schooling expense with a decrease in quality for many (some kids just can’t handle two languages as primary instruction).

 

[Good2Golf]

Except he didn’t have that power, the provinces control education.

Sure. Like they ‘control’ health, too.

And most of them would have (and likely still would) resist that requirement.

Resist? Meh. Some got on with it…NB, MB, ON…I started taking French in Grade 1 in Ontario, in 1972. It’s not rocket science.

Substantial increase in schooling expense with a decrease in quality for many (some kids just can’t handle two languages as primary instruction).

What % do you call ‘substantial?’

Lots of countries around the world include more than just a single language in the education system. Children are known to be notably more capable of learning multiple languages than adults are later in life.

 

[TacticalTea]

IIRC, this means more Canadians support bilingualism more than the monarchy.

 

[YZT580]

Except he didn’t have that power, the provinces control education. And most of them would have (and likely still would) resist that requirement. Substantial increase in schooling expense with a decrease in quality for many (some kids just can’t handle two languages as primary instruction).

every child is born with the capability of learning any language. It is only in later years that we lose that ability so starting in kindergarten is a leg up on learning. But I find it interesting that you (and I use that pronoun advisedly as we would also apply) immediately look for problems rather than opportunities on almost every issue discussed. Back on topic: Trudeau junior has sold dental programmes, daycare programmes and drug programmes to the provinces all of which are under provincial jurisdiction. If senior had presented the money as his son has he could/would have made a sale. Instead he contributed significantly to dividing our nation

 

[Eaglelord17]

Sure. Like they ‘control’ health, too.

Resist? Meh. Some got on with it…NB, MB, ON…I started taking French in Grade 1 in Ontario, in 1972. It’s not rocket science.

What % do you call ‘substantial?’

Lots of countries around the world include more than just a single language in the education system. Children are known to be notably more capable of learning multiple languages than adults are later in life.

There is a difference between having French classes and having a bilingual school. The 'French Immersion' schools (as thats closer to what a proper bilingual school system would look like) always cost more to run than your average unilingual school. Add in the requirement to have tons of bilingual teachers (which in 1968 wasn't huge, even today it would be a big issue) and your meeting tons of bottle necks in that system with a lower standard of educators being a likely outcome.

The amount of people who have a rudimentary understanding of French from the standard grade 1-9 is so small it basically made taking it worthless. I am one of the few people I know who can roughly understand French and provide some real basic communication from the standard education system. Even then my understanding of French is mostly Parisian French, not Quebecois.

I agree most children learn languages easier than adults, they pick up basically every bit of information easier. However it is known that using a bilingual school system (such as French Immersion) results in poorer results in earlier years, with them catching up in later years. It is also generally a elitist system with struggling students left behind.

every child is born with the capability of learning any language. It is only in later years that we lose that ability so starting in kindergarten is a leg up on learning. But I find it interesting that you (and I use that pronoun advisedly as we would also apply) immediately look for problems rather than opportunities on almost every issue discussed. Back on topic: Trudeau junior has sold dental programmes, daycare programmes and drug programmes to the provinces all of which are under provincial jurisdiction. If senior had presented the money as his son has he could/would have made a sale. Instead he contributed significantly to dividing our nation

I am a pessimist by nature. That being said the optimistic side of that is by looking at the problems with the ideas, you can come up with the solutions to avoid them. Pretending everything is going to work amazingly and not having a plan for the potential issues is setting up for failure. Plan for the worst and hope for the best is my mantra.

 

[Good2Golf]

There is a difference between having French classes and having a bilingual school. The 'French Immersion' schools (as thats closer to what a proper bilingual school system would look like) always cost more to run than your average unilingual school. Add in the requirement to have tons of bilingual teachers (which in 1968 wasn't huge, even today it would be a big issue) and your meeting tons of bottle necks in that system with a lower standard of educators being a likely outcome.

Technically only New Brunswick is a bilingual province, so only it’s schools would be considered bilingual, but we aren’t arguing over whether a school itself is bilingual, but what service can schools provide that support the concept of bilingualism. You are conflating immersion with bilingualism, and that is incorrect as immersion seeks to force learning through unilingualism in a non-maternal tongue.

The amount of people who have a rudimentary understanding of French from the standard grade 1-9 is so small it basically made taking it worthless.

Again, unsubstantiated qualification with no attempt to quantify…

What % is “so small” as to make it “worthless?”

I am one of the few people I know who can roughly understand French and provide some real basic communication from the standard education system. Even then my understanding of French is mostly Parisian French, not Quebecois.

Then if you are as young as you purport to be, I’d say you didn’t achieve as much learning as others before you. If people made the effort and had the competence to learn French through the elementary and secondary school system of a non-partisan province like Manitoba or Ontario, they could be decently capable in French entering the workforce.

I agree most children learn languages easier than adults, they pick up basically every bit of information easier. However it is known that using a bilingual school system (such as French Immersion) results in poorer results in earlier years, with them catching up in later years.

Again, something other than hollow-worded qualifications would give your argument some strength. This is pure anecdotal junk…

I am a pessimist by nature.

That being said the optimistic side of that is by looking at the problems with the ideas, you can come up with the solutions to avoid them. Pretending everything is going to work amazingly and not having a plan for the potential issues is setting up for failure. Plan for the worst and hope for the best is my mantra.

You sound like you’ve made your mind up that anything other than full immersion is of no value, or worse as it degrades learning in non-linguistic areas of a child’s education in disproportionate ratio to effort spent. Maybe you need to add a little more effort to ‘best’ than ‘hope…’

 

[brihard]

I know that when it’s time for our son to go to school, we’re looking at the French public school board. My wife’s fluently bilingual, I’m functional but need work, and being able to speak both of our official languages will be an obvious career and social benefit to him. Now, that’s partly a product of being in Ottawa and both of us working public sector, but I think it’s sound. And if he can pick up more language skills beyond that, great.

 

[GR66]

Then if you are as young as you purport to be, I’d say you didn’t achieve as much learning as others before you. If people made the effort and had the competence to learn French through the elementary and secondary school system of a non-partisan province like Manitoba or Ontario, they could be decently capable in French entering the workforce.

I'm not against bilingualism or multilingualism by any means but I would say that there is a huge difference between learning French in school and functional bilingualism.

I took French in Ontario up to Grade 12. I'm now in my late 50's and other than the 4-1/2 years I spent working at DND I've had no exposure to French in either my work life or personal life other than a few vacations to Quebec.

As a result I've lost most of the French I learned in school as you need ongoing exposure to a language in order to maintain proficiency...especially in conversation. I can read well enough to understand most common texts that don't have uncommon vocabulary, but find it extremely difficult to follow along with a conversation as the native speakers speak to quickly and there's too much variation in their accents to follow along. People living in areas where both languages are regularly spoken have much better opportunities to maintain their language skills (which I'm sure is why most people I encounter when in Quebec quickly get a look of pity on their face and switch to English when I try to dazzle them with my high school French!).

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I know that when it’s time for our son to go to school, we’re looking at the French public school board. My wife’s fluently bilingual, I’m functional but need work, and being able to speak both of our official languages will be an obvious career and social benefit to him. Now, that’s partly a product of being in Ottawa and both of us working public sector, but I think it’s sound. And if he can pick up more language skills beyond that, great.

Generally kids in bilingual schools suffer in STEM scores and grades. If you are looking to put your kids into the public service, then it is a good choice. If they be good at STEM, then no. Taking a 2nd language course is fine,

 

[SeaKingTacco]

My kids are in K-12 french immersion. They are doing fine, but it is not without problems and it is definitely not for every kid. We have friends who have made the difficult (but correct) decision to pull their struggling child out of the immersion stream and back into English only stream and see them regain their footing.

Another issue is that native french speaking teachers, regardless of competence at teaching, are literally untouchable in our school district, unless they commit gross/criminal misconduct. There is a shortage of french speaking teachers and Admin is not going burn a teacher over little things like not following the cirriculum…

You really have to do what is best for you child.

 

[TacticalTea]

My kids are in K-12 french immersion. They are doing fine, but it is not without problems and it is definitely not for every kid. We have friends who have made the difficult (but correct) decision to pull their struggling child out of the immersion stream and back into English only stream and see them regain their footing.

Another issue is that native french speaking teachers, regardless of competence at teaching, are literally untouchable in our school district, unless they commit gross/criminal misconduct. There is a shortage of french speaking teachers and Admin is not going burn a teacher over little things like not following the cirriculum…

You really have to do what is best for you child.

You mean parents can't just leave the upbringing of their kids to the government with a model of one size fits all? Nonsense!