Federal Government & Union spar over returning to office

[Good2Golf]

Nothing says "Defence Team" like 2 different standards...

Perhaps if you move the opening quotations, PuckChaser?

Voila!

Defence “Team”…

 

[Navy_Pete]

I think it’s a perfectly fine thing to have separate standards between the CAF and Defence civil servants. Civilian employees have to meet direction imposed by the Clerk of the Privy Council, and to be compatible with the wider civil service, while members of the CAF report to the CDS.

Besides, the CAF are currently having an existential staffing crisis — while the civil service are reportedly still capable of hiring and retaining in numbers. HR policies for one should not be imposed blindly on the other when their situations are so far apart.

As to work from home? Industry will tell us whether it works, because no one in the private sector will build and maintain billion dollar office blocks in downtown cores just to placate a supervisor’s desire to physically oversee a cubicle farm. If WFH is really the future, then companies that pursue it will eat more traditional companies for lunch. But I’d want the civil service to lag — the public sector is traditionally kind of crappy at leading the way on cutting edge techniques. Probably better to let industry lead the way, then implement their results as a ‘proven best practice’.

I think having two different standards in the same functional job makes absolutely no sense; if the job can be done remotely with no issue, then no reason with the split should be different just because someone is a PS or in uniform. Similarly, if job is better done in person, same standard for everyone. Two people doing the same job having different WFH requirements is just dumb, and it's not uncommon to have sections of mixed PS/CAF people doing exactly that.

I have the same experience as @dapaterson and @Furniture where my home work setup is now much better set up for things like videoconferencing, and sitting around the office on my own is pointless, has real time/money costs to me, and doesn't leave me a happy camper. For context, going into the office, we now need a 48hour advance notice for room booking (through a portal), so the spontaneous 'lets go grab a room and go through this on a whiteboard' does't really work well as you end up squatting and hoping no one booked the room. Most VTCs don't work well either, so no uncommon to have a laptop setup looking down a table of people instead.

We also don't need industry to tell us if it works; we've been doing it ourselves for 3 years now. Industry experience doesn't translate to GoC directly, but if that's not enough time to figure out what is working and what isn't industry experience won't help us. Things are still getting done, so I would say it generally working now that we've upgraded remote work infrastructure to do it, so if tweaks are needed it's down to the individual sections to figure out what they need to change that works best for their details, not a top level.

Your lagging indicator it's working and a desirable thing for workers will probably something like people voting with their feet and moving jobs, especially for PS in the NCR who have options for lateral moves to other sections within DND or other departments at that job classification fairly easily for the most part.

 

[dapaterson]

A friend in tech, fairly senior, has seen the overwhelming majority of their management workforce moved to one hundred percent virtual, reducing their real estate footprint.

From a GoC perspective, a pivot to virtual means jobs can hire the best person, and not the best person in the 613/819 area codes. Long term, the impact on the city if Ottawa will be significant, as knowledge workers and their paycheques will not be locked in to the NCR.

 

[PuckChaser]

Which works great for the private sector, which can easily let people go for poor performance/cause. It works less so in the public sector where it's extremely difficult to let someone go when they're in the office 5 days a week, let alone hiding somewhere 3 provinces away.

There are most definitely jobs that can and make a lot of sense to be done virtually. Unfortunately the unions are pushing for a cart blanche to WFH, and anyone who tried to get anything done during COVID lockdowns knows how increasingly impossible it was to get ahold of Mil/PS NCR employees. We are not mature enough policy and IT wise to make virtual employment a viable possibility right now.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A friend in tech, fairly senior, has seen the overwhelming majority of their management workforce moved to one hundred percent virtual, reducing their real estate footprint.

From a GoC perspective, a pivot to virtual means jobs can hire the best person, and not the best person in the 613/819 area codes. Long term, the impact on the city if Ottawa will be significant, as knowledge workers and their paycheques will not be locked in to the NCR.

The tech sector is one thing, the public service is definitely another.

Even the best people can't properly supervise slackers working remotely in a unionized environment full of people who need direct supervision, so productivity relies heavily on the few hard workers, and managers, picking up the slack.

YMMV, but...

Remote work and people in government​

Time spent in unproductive work. The public servants who answered the Duke Survey reported themselves as up to 40% less productive while working from home during the pandemic. These results are highly related to lack of self-control (Duke Remote Work Survey, 2020). In this context, finding ways to improve self-control as a means to raise performance and well-being outcomes is relevant and can be done by adopting strategies of goal-setting, planning, and measuring results.

Social isolation/lack of human interaction. Being compelled to telework, people experience fewer social interactions than in their usual work setting (Duke Remote Work Survey, 2020), potentially affecting productivity and well-being. This issue could be minimised by looking at the process of organizational socialization, increasing opportunities for social interactions among colleagues, managers and employees.

Remote work and people in government - Observatory of Public Sector Innovation

oecd-opsi.org

 

[Eaglelord17]

Another thing to consider with WFH is most people doing it were trained in the office and know their jobs.

We haven’t really directly hired people into WFH positions and unlike say the tech sector where programming is programming whether it be for microsoft or apple, the government isn’t like that and really is a convoluted non-intuitive environment. There is a lot of benefit for new people to be shown how to work through the processes in person.

All I know for sure is right now I am pretty PO’d with the public service. Over 350k of employees and they can’t process a paternity leave EI claim in a somewhat reasonable length of time. At this point it looks like I shall start receiving my payments when I return to work.

 

[Furniture]

Its

Which works great for the private sector, which can easily let people go for poor performance/cause. It works less so in the public sector where it's extremely difficult to let someone go when they're in the office 5 days a week, let alone hiding somewhere 3 provinces away.

There are most definitely jobs that can and make a lot of sense to be done virtually. Unfortunately the unions are pushing for a cart blanche to WFH, and anyone who tried to get anything done during COVID lockdowns knows how increasingly impossible it was to get ahold of Mil/PS NCR employees. We are not mature enough policy and IT wise to make virtual employment a viable possibility right now.

It's impossible to get ahold of people in the NCR even at their desks... it's what happens when there are meetings every 30 min, and not enough people for the administriva the CAF loves.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Its

It's impossible to get ahold of people in the NCR even at their desks... it's what happens when there are meetings every 30 min, and not enough people for the administriva the CAF loves.

And the inconvenient truth about alot of public sector WFH workplaces is that about 25% of people have 'gone dark', and can't be engaged at all, apparently....

 

[Furniture]

And the inconvenient truth about alot of public sector WFH workplaces is that about 25% of people have 'gone dark', and can't be engaged at all, apparently....

I have also run into that, but in my experience those people are the 25% that wasn't doing their job at their desk either.

Except in the office they also distracted others by being social butterflies fluttering around from desk to desk.

I'm not denying WFH has challenges, but adopting a solution based on the worst workers is a sure way to drive off or demoralize your best workers.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And the inconvenient truth about alot of public sector WFH workplaces is that about 25% of people have 'gone dark', and can't be engaged at all, apparently....

I like when I email an LCMM or Lead TA and I finally get a reply after a week and its been bounced through a bakers dozen of other people until it finally reaches the actual LCMM or Lead TA. All for them to provide some nonsensical answer that is no where in policy.

And again I really love those little house icons in peoples sig block on emails.

 

[Navy_Pete]

I like when I email an LCMM or Lead TA and I finally get a reply after a week and its been bounced through a bakers dozen of other people until it finally reaches the actual LCMM or Lead TA. All for them to provide some nonsensical answer that is no where in policy.

And again I really love those little house icons in peoples sig block on emails.

Zombie TA and SM codes and emails are pretty common, so actively working on making sure the codes actually point to a person that hasn't been retired for years (sometimes in orgs that no longer exist).

That has been a problem long before COVID and WFH though. There was a brief period when all of ADM(Mat) was in the adjacent buildings where you could at least walk around and ask for people, but after the fire about a decade ago they split if up into a dozen buildings again, so being in the office doesn't really change anything on that side. When there can an hour or two transit in the NCR between buildings, so it's not like we're jumping on a bus to go see if someone is at their cubicle.

On the flip side, find the same thing trying to get a hold of people on the coasts, and even on the ships it can be hard to get a hold of someone unless you've worked in the shop.

I think these are all institutional issues that would still exist even if we went back to the office tomorrow, so calling it a 'WFH' issue is a bit misleading.

Personnally I find going into the office about the same productivity wise as taking a half day off, and spend the next two days trying to catch up. Job dependent of course, but that's my experience. Also the window for the west coast to get a hold of us is pretty small, especially if you do a 7-3 (or 6-2) to avoid traffic.

 

[dapaterson]

Information management with DND/CAF is poor. There are email accounts still active on DWAN for people retired for years.

 

[captloadie]

I'm sure its likely better on a base or Wing, but in the NCR, there really is no true mechanism to ensure people leaving are doing a true clear out. When I released last month, I was given an NCR out-clearance form by my release administrator to complete. On it were only those items that the CFSU(O-G) organization were responsible for - Supply, Cashier, Messes, NPF, CANEX, CFHA. There was a statement that said I was aware I was responsible to do any unit out clearances and return any IT in my possession, but they rely on the releasing persons honesty that they did it.

If I hadn't been transferring to the Reserves, it would have been no problem for me to simply leave my phone and laptop in my cubicle space, and walk away. If my Reg F position wasn't filled in behind me, it could have been literally years before SSC was notified to switch over the accounts and close my email.

That isn't a WFH issue. Its a process issue. As is re-organizing sections every other year to meet the flavour of the new DG. Or units not bothering to put a useable, up to date org chart on their DWAN landing page with contact info so you can at least guess who you might need to call.

And speaking of calling, the message that should be sent to everyone working outside the NCR is, that unless you have contacted someone on their desk phone recently, that is the last method to try and get ahold of them. In the order of most likely to get a response is - MS TEAMS call or chat message, email, cell phone, and then maybe desk phone, if the person has a login to even activate the phone sitting on their desk. Once again, not a WFH issue, but how the organization within the NCR has changed how it communicates.

 

[Weinie]

I'm sure its likely better on a base or Wing, but in the NCR, there really is no true mechanism to ensure people leaving are doing a true clear out. When I released last month, I was given an NCR out-clearance form by my release administrator to complete. On it were only those items that the CFSU(O-G) organization were responsible for - Supply, Cashier, Messes, NPF, CANEX, CFHA. There was a statement that said I was aware I was responsible to do any unit out clearances and return any IT in my possession, but they rely on the releasing persons honesty that they did it.

If I hadn't been transferring to the Reserves, it would have been no problem for me to simply leave my phone and laptop in my cubicle space, and walk away. If my Reg F position wasn't filled in behind me, it could have been literally years before SSC was notified to switch over the accounts and close my email.

That isn't a WFH issue. Its a process issue. As is re-organizing sections every other year to meet the flavour of the new DG. Or units not bothering to put a useable, up to date org chart on their DWAN landing page with contact info so you can at least guess who you might need to call.

And speaking of calling, the message that should be sent to everyone working outside the NCR is, that unless you have contacted someone on their desk phone recently, that is the last method to try and get ahold of them. In the order of most likely to get a response is - MS TEAMS call or chat message, email, cell phone, and then maybe desk phone, if the person has a login to even activate the phone sitting on their desk. Once again, not a WFH issue, but how the organization within the NCR has changed how it communicates.

This

 

[Navy_Pete]

And speaking of calling, the message that should be sent to everyone working outside the NCR is, that unless you have contacted someone on their desk phone recently, that is the last method to try and get ahold of them. In the order of most likely to get a response is - MS TEAMS call or chat message, email, cell phone, and then maybe desk phone, if the person has a login to even activate the phone sitting on their desk. Once again, not a WFH issue, but how the organization within the NCR has changed how it communicates.

I've been in my job for 2 years and still don't have a phone (desk or work cell). People that need to actually call me have my cell number, but generally MS teams is the best alternate contact outside of email, and is now activated for anyone with a DWAN account. If someone isn't on Teams it's a good chance the account has been dead for a few years.

@captloadie things like TA and SM designations aren't part of out clearance, retirements or postings unfortunately, and have to manually change it over to someone else if a position is left vacant. Which is how, over time, I got a TA super code with 5 TAs worth of equipment on it, and can now start parting it back out to new people to the TA codes (which getting assigned to is automatic as soon as you fill that billet).

Unfortunately there is no re-direct function in CGCS that you can add a 'contact this person instead' and leave all the NSNs on the actual TA code, so you either leave it orphaned and hope someone does a lookup, or consolidate them (which really, really sucks).

 

[daftandbarmy]

Information management with DND/CAF is poor. There are email accounts still active on DWAN for people retired for years.

Based on recent reports....

 

[Remius]

A friend in tech, fairly senior, has seen the overwhelming majority of their management workforce moved to one hundred percent virtual, reducing their real estate footprint.

From a GoC perspective, a pivot to virtual means jobs can hire the best person, and not the best person in the 613/819 area codes. Long term, the impact on the city if Ottawa will be significant, as knowledge workers and their paycheques will not be locked in to the NCR.

Unfortunately, this was a direction that a lot of people were looking to go. But with the mandated 2 to 3 days in office, it has halted that pivot from a GoC perspective.

 

[dapaterson]

Unfortunately, this was a direction that a lot of people were looking to go. But with the mandated 2 to 3 days in office, it has halted that pivot from a GoC perspective.

It will happen, by plan or by stealth.

 

[Furniture]

It will happen, by plan or by stealth.

Three people in my section work remote, though they still need to show up occasionally to an office in their area.

Oddly, there aren't a lot of oceanographers hanging out in Ottawa looking for work.

 

[CountDC]

not having to use a VPN to get to DRMIS through another VPN)

What, you don't like having to login to DWAN, VPN, PKI, Remote Desk top then finally DRMIS just to try to get a report only to be disconnected from the VPN and have to dot it over?

Did your director have his own office that he could close his door and and make private calls? I find the ones resistant to wfh are the ones that have the best amenities at work to do their jobs.

um, don't they all?

I think the bigger issue is that we have single point of failure positions at all.

Courses, medical, leave, etc., happen, nobody should be the single point of failure in our admin systems.

DRMIS has one person that can do certain entries and it really is annoying.

Information management with DND/CAF is poor. There are email accounts still active on DWAN for people retired for years.

the question there is why? That person retired from a section that should have submitted an assyst ticket to delete the account (supervisors??). It never ceases to amaze me to go into another section and find accounts like that and have to submit the ticket. Doesn't take long to do.

WFH is something that should be at the managerial level. Some people can WFH and some can only vacation at home. The manager should know the difference and delegate accordingly.