CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

[YZT580]

Asking the question.

Would there not be a ton of people wanting to go to Europe and Latvia? I thought it was nice but I just got a one day visit. Not as expensive as other European countries plus with Estonia next door even cheaper.

We did 40 years in Germany......did we forget how?

Why do 6 months? Move the family?

might help with recruitment too. 4 years in Europe, all expenses, private school for the kids. Sounds a whole lot better than 4 years in Wainwright.

 

[KevinB]

I assume I’m looking at the base here

There seems to be a bunch of room for improvement

 

[Kirkhill]

They’re sending 15 but deploying half Sqns so I assume they have included spares.

That could also be used to trial different configurations.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

might help with recruitment too. 4 years in Europe, all expenses, private school for the kids. Sounds a whole lot better than 4 years in Wainwright.

Except for the fact we have infrastructure in Wainwright and not in Latvia. And all of those nice, juicy perks cost a hell of a lot of money compared to tossing FSP at dudes for 6 months at time.

Penny wise and pound foolish, yes; but, we have demonstrated as a country we would rather do things half-assed on the cheap than do things properly.

It's why I was on TD for 5 months on Roto 3 of Operacise REASSURANCE in 2015, because no one wanted to cut that SDO Allowances check for "exercising in Europe."

How the turntables....turn?

 

[TangoTwoBravo]

The military family situation has changed since the 70s. Applying solutions that worked then may not work out today. Having said that, there are folks posted there and I expect to see a few more postings. If you are in a mech, CS or CSS unit in a CMBG you can expect to deploy to Latvia for six-months every three years. The Managed Readiness System and collective training system have been adapted to facilitate this.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Trudeau could promise free beer for a year at all bases and buy 400 K2s and Army.ca would still want to shoot the messenger.

What kind of beer?

 

[Quirky]

might help with recruitment too. 4 years in Europe, all expenses, private school for the kids. Sounds a whole lot better than 4 years in Wainwright.

And for the spouse that spent years in post-secondary, will they be given employment options in Latvia to pay off all that school debt? It’s 2023, the military isn’t, or shouldn’t be, the only career that matters in a relationship.

 

[markppcli]

I assume I’m looking at the base here
View attachment 78757
There seems to be a bunch of room for improvement

Base and training area. The base proper is pretty dense and could be expanded ? But I don’t know the land use / zoning / ect

 

[YZT580]

Base and training area. The base proper is pretty dense and could be expanded ? But I don’t know the land use / zoning / ect

We have companies here in Ontario that can have the required housing built and loaded on a ship within a six month time frame and I don't mean trailers either but double wide modular homes. wouldn't take them much time to adapt their plans to European standard wiring and arrange a contractor to do the foundations. As for schooling, there are loads of qualified people who would jump at the chance to contract out for a period of time and get away from the politics of the school boards here. Quirky mentioned the spouses well I am sure that some of them are teachers, nurses, doctors, nurse practitioners etc. all of whom would be welcome on base. There are solutions folks don't be so damn negative. (even though experience has taught you to be so) With all of NATO calling Trudeau a cheap freeloader this just could be the time when politics comes in on your side.

 

[markppcli]

We have companies here in Ontario that can have the required housing built and loaded on a ship within a six month time frame and I don't mean trailers either but double wide modular homes. wouldn't take them much time to adapt their plans to European standard wiring and arrange a contractor to do the foundations. As for schooling, there are loads of qualified people who would jump at the chance to contract out for a period of time and get away from the politics of the school boards here. Quirky mentioned the spouses well I am sure that some of them are teachers, nurses, doctors, nurse practitioners etc. all of whom would be welcome on base. There are solutions folks don't be so damn negative. (even though experience has taught you to be so) With all of NATO calling Trudeau a cheap freeloader this just could be the time when politics comes in on your side.

Dude the Latvians made us throw out furniture we built around the tents. Have you ever been to Adazi? Have you seen the physical space available ? I’ll bet the answer is no.


The key thing people are forgetting here is that it’s not simply a matter of “oh we’ll just do it” Latvia is a sovereign country and the military is quite interested in making certain it’s remains a Latvia base.

It’s all nice to hand wave over the incredible complex issues of moving 2000 plus people to another country, however that country also has some say in the matter. The residents of a Adazi may not be so keen on it.

 

[Blackadder1916]

We have companies here in Ontario that can have the required housing built and loaded on a ship within a six month time frame and I don't mean trailers either but double wide modular homes. wouldn't take them much time to adapt their plans to European standard wiring and arrange a contractor to do the foundations. As for schooling, there are loads of qualified people who would jump at the chance to contract out for a period of time and get away from the politics of the school boards here. Quirky mentioned the spouses well I am sure that some of them are teachers, nurses, doctors, nurse practitioners etc. all of whom would be welcome on base. There are solutions folks don't be so damn negative. (even though experience has taught you to be so) With all of NATO calling Trudeau a cheap freeloader this just could be the time when politics comes in on your side.

Not having been to Latvia, I've no experience with their usual building practices but viewing photos of communities and scanning thru some real estate sites, it seems very similar to what we experienced in Germany, lo those decades ago. And I did build a hospital there; not physically myself, I was on the project management team. I also later sold disposed of that hospital (I used to joke with my CO that I should have received a real estate commission - we 'theoretically' disposed of it for more than it cost to build).

There are were a lot of rules that govern who, what, where and how infrastructure can be constructed/repaired/renovated/disposed in foreign countries where our troops are stationed (or other nations' forces if in Canada). Just as we had to abide by restrictions imposed by the SOFA and some other MOUs so too would any expansion of a Canadian footprint in Latvia and I assume the primary agreement covering infrastructure would be

LATVIJAS REPUBLIKAS VALDĪBAS UN KANĀDAS VALDĪBAS, KO PĀRSTĀV KANĀDAS NACIONĀLĀS AIZSARDZĪBAS DEPARTAMENTS UN KANĀDAS BRUŅOTIE SPĒKI, SAPRAŠANĀS MEMORANDS PAR PAPLAŠINĀTU PARTNERĪBU AIZSARDZĪBAS JOMĀ UN DROŠĪBAS SADARBĪBU

known on this side of the pond as (you'll have to machine translate it)

MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF THE REPUBLIC OF LATVIA AND THE GOVERNMENT OF CANADA, REPRESENTED BY THE CANADIAN DEPARTMENT OF NATIONAL DEFENSE AND THE CANADIAN ARMED FORCES, ON ENHANCED DEFENSE PARTNERSHIP AND SECURITY COOPERATION

Articles III and V are the most applicable to infrastructure.

A machine translation of Article V is here

ARTICLE V
OWNERSHIP

1. All buildings, immovable structures and constructions located on the land of the Agreed Objects and territories, including those modified or improved by the CAF, remain the property of the Government of Latvia. All such buildings, structures and structures constructed by CAF shall become the property of the Government of Latvia upon their construction, but shall be used by CAF until such time as they are no longer required by CAF.

2. CAF transfers any Agreed facility or territory or any part thereof, including buildings, immovable structures and structures built by CAF, as undivided and unencumbered property of the Government of Latvia after CAF has ceased to use them, provided that CAF does not cover related costs. The Participants or their authorized representatives shall negotiate the terms of the transfer of any Agreed Facility or area, including compensation for the residual value of improvements or construction made by CAF.

3. CAF and GC contractors retain ownership rights to all equipment, material and technical means, stocks, movable structures and other movable property that they have imported or acquired in the territory of Latvia.

4. Members or their designees may negotiate the transfer or sale of CAF equipment in excess of CAF requirements as permitted by Canadian law.

Some of the terms of that MOU are quite similar with ones we had with Germany, though a quick comparison of what I remember from back then, Latvia has a better deal with regards to residual ownership and valuation of disposed assets.

Europe is not a double wide friendly environment.

 

[PuckChaser]

What kind of beer?

Based on political leanings? Bud Light.

 

[markppcli]

Based on political leanings? Bud Light.

You’re assuming the left leaning urban educated Liberal voter is buying a low grade American domestic lager? It’s gonna be an IPA.

(Don’t hate on bud light for it’s politics, hate it because it’s awful beer)

 

[PuckChaser]

I'm just sad they lost so much market share to Dasani.

 

[childs56]

And as big as CP is, something tells me they aren’t as big as the GOC or GOL in terms of procurement $

I wonder though if one breaks down CP revenues compared to Canadian Military budget who earns or spends more per person. CP is in the $660,000 pp. The Cf is in the $540,000 pp.
Budgets are always interesting. The CF can do much better, but they choose not to. Generally because they have always done things this way. No one wants to do it a different way. Heck they don't even want to look at a different way.
I have seen really nice camps be assembled in Alberta for the Oilfield Workers up north. Some for 500 and upwards of 2000person camps. They are nice.
The Military could look at building these for their troops deployed. QOL would be pretty awesome.

 

[McG]

The CAF had been involved in planning the Leopard deployment, with input from theatre and down to unit level in Canada, for over a year before that was publicly announced. This newest announcement was being worked on conçurent to tank planning the whole time. Multiple L1s (and even DCC) we involved. This is not a surprise. For every sky is falling question asked here, people have been working the problem already. Work has already started on most solutions. But the CAF can’t make big announcement until the government does. So preparations carry on without fanfare or attention being drawn to them.

 

[YZT580]

The CAF had been involved in planning the Leopard deployment, with input from theatre and down to unit level in Canada, for over a year before that was publicly announced. This newest announcement was being worked on conçurent to tank planning the whole time. Multiple L1s (and even DCC) we involved. This is not a surprise. For every sky is falling question asked here, people have been working the problem already. Work has already started on most solutions. But the CAF can’t make big announcement until the government does. So preparations carry on without fanfare or attention being drawn to them.

you do ruin a good rant

 

[WLSC]

The CAF had been involved in planning the Leopard deployment, with input from theatre and down to unit level in Canada, for over a year before that was publicly announced. This newest announcement was being worked on conçurent to tank planning the whole time. Multiple L1s (and even DCC) we involved. This is not a surprise. For every sky is falling question asked here, people have been working the problem already. Work has already started on most solutions. But the CAF can’t make big announcement until the government does. So preparations carry on without fanfare or attention being drawn to them.

Logically you are absolutely right. We are very good planners. Announcement are the last thing that happened in those thing. It’s also great that they manage to keep it low profile.

I think we are mostly sarcastic in our comments, for my part some time disillusioned but never doubtful of our capacity to make thing happen. I’m mostly saddened by the state we have been put in and the work load the same governmentS have put on us.

 

[GK .Dundas]

You’re assuming the left leaning urban educated Liberal voter is buying a low grade American domestic lager? It’s gonna be an IPA.

(Don’t hate on bud light for it’s politics, hate it because it’s awful beer)

When Budlight first made their announcement, I wondered what the Trans community had done to offend Budlight's parent corporation?

 

[Weinie]

The CAF had been involved in planning the Leopard deployment, with input from theatre and down to unit level in Canada, for over a year before that was publicly announced. This newest announcement was being worked on conçurent to tank planning the whole time. Multiple L1s (and even DCC) we involved. This is not a surprise. For every sky is falling question asked here, people have been working the problem already. Work has already started on most solutions. But the CAF can’t make big announcement until the government does. So preparations carry on without fanfare or attention being drawn to them.

Contingency planning is continuous in the CAF. But about 2 weeks ago, several trial balloons, based on contingency planning and other COA's,(whose intent you can discern) got lofted/disseminated in underground Ottawa.

The aim was to gauge the response. Obviously, there was a winner.