CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

[rmc_wannabe]

There are ten reserve brigades, and we have had a fourth regular (combat support) brigade for a couple of years now.

Is this the Canadian Can't Support Brigade tha is a brigade in name only?

 

[FJAG]

Is this the Canadian Can't Support Brigade tha is a brigade in name only?

Actually 6 CCSB has quite a few capabilities and they are growing. It's a new concept for Canada and will take some time to mature. It's definitely a brigade and a valuable one at that.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Actually 6 CCSB has quite a few capabilities and they are growing. It's a new concept for Canada and will take some time to mature. It's definitely a brigade and a valuable one at that.

I have worked closely with CCSB since it's inception. The problem it has is a lack of personnel and a clear understanding from Force Generators of its role/capabilities/limitations.

Definitely needs to be a discussion point on AOC that CCSB is not the land of infinite PYs it's been seen as.

 

[Kirkhill]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1542504671574495233

Is it just me or does Trudeau look Photoshopped?

 

[Kirkhill]

Can you finish the rest of that conversation?

Unfortunately the only person capable of finishing that conversation is deceased.

 

[Kirkhill]

Actually 6 CCSB has quite a few capabilities and they are growing. It's a new concept for Canada and will take some time to mature. It's definitely a brigade and a valuable one at that.

Here's another Kirkhill flight of fancy.

6 CCSB should be fully resourced with Regular Forces,

1,2 and 5 somewhere on the 70:30 - 30:70 spectrum.

Leaning toward's FJAG's thinking.

 

[KevinB]

Can you finish the rest of that conversation?

No one can.

How can you claim to have 4 Reg Force Bde's and 9 PRes Bde's and not be able to field a single Bde? If I was the Cdn Gov I'd wonder WTF you (the CAF) has been doing with the meager pool of money you have -- sure the Cdn Gov deserves a lot of flack for the amount of money - but quite frankly the Cdn Taxpayer is getting robbed from what it actually gets out of the CAF as opposed to what is going in.

Yes the whole regional subsidy aspect drains the coffers, but the Regimental asshattery that goes on to ensure that they are all equal but different cap badge representations in all capabilities is entirely on the CAF Leaders.

 

[KevinB]

Trudeau said that decision will mean the commitment of additional Canadian troops.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nato-arms-canada-1.6506611

 

[dapaterson]

Correction: Ten Res F Bdes.

The temporary tenth in Atlantic Canada has de facto become permanent.

Sigh.

 

[FJAG]

No one can.

How can you claim to have 4 Reg Force Bde's and 9 PRes Bde's and not be able to field a single Bde? If I was the Cdn Gov I'd wonder WTF you (the CAF) has been doing with the meager pool of money you have -- sure the Cdn Gov deserves a lot of flack for the amount of money - but quite frankly the Cdn Taxpayer is getting robbed from what it actually gets out of the CAF as opposed to what is going in.

Yes the whole regional subsidy aspect drains the coffers, but the Regimental asshattery that goes on to ensure that they are all equal but different cap badge representations in all capabilities is entirely on the CAF Leaders.

You know me Kevin. I'm onside to both those arguments but a flat out statement that we can't field a single brigade is stretching it. There are enough people in the Army and enough equipment to field two mech brigades and to sustain them IF we shut down every other task or function and IF there was an emergency big enough to justify it. So far no one sees the need for that.

Admittedly we'd need a few UORs to add anti-armour and air defence launchers. We have enough artillery and engineers and service support to put that together.

My view is that with the money that Canada puts in and the people we currently have we should be able to mobilize and man up to five manoeuvre and three support brigades. Everything else by way of numbers - the five divisions, and the ten reserve brigades are sheer puffery to cloak administrative entities with historical titles. I personally do not like administrative entities.

 

[OldSolduer]

You know me Kevin. I'm onside to both those arguments but a flat out statement that we can't field a single brigade is stretching it. There are enough people in the Army and enough equipment to field two mech brigades and to sustain them IF we shut down every other task or function and IF there was an emergency big enough to justify it. So far no one sees the need for that.

Admittedly we'd need a few UORs to add anti-armour and air defence launchers. We have enough artillery and engineers and service support to put that together.

My view is that with the money that Canada puts in and the people we currently have we should be able to mobilize and man up to five manoeuvre and three support brigades. Everything else by way of numbers - the five divisions, and the ten reserve brigades are sheer puffery to cloak administrative entities with historical titles. I personally do not like administrative entities.

Both you gents are far more in the know than I. My feeling is that a few non tac HQs need to be punted, and much of the deadwood needs to go as well.

Recruiting and training need more focus as well.

 

[KevinB]

You know me Kevin. I'm onside to both those arguments but a flat out statement that we can't field a single brigade is stretching it. There are enough people in the Army and enough equipment to field two mech brigades and to sustain them IF we shut down every other task or function and IF there was an emergency big enough to justify it. So far no one sees the need for that.

Admittedly we'd need a few UORs to add anti-armour and air defence launchers. We have enough artillery and engineers and service support to put that together.

I’m not seeing the numbers. I see a lot of theory - but you don’t have enough tanks for 2 Mech Bde’s - I think the Arty is questionable without rockets and I don’t think the 777 is correct for Mech Bde’s.

The killers to me is GBAD is absolutely nonexistent, and Anti-Armor is thin at best - and CSS is sparse. That’s specifically why I don’t see the ability to field the Bde.

My view is that with the money that Canada puts in and the people we currently have we should be able to mobilize and man up to five manoeuvre and three support brigades. Everything else by way of numbers - the five divisions, and the ten reserve brigades are sheer puffery to cloak administrative entities with historical titles. I personally do not like administrative entities.

Agreed.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

If the British Army, one of the oldest professional military forces in history, can rebadge, consolidate, and effectively employ fighting units without tradition falling apart... I think the Pictou County Fusiliers and their section plus parade strength can be too.

The composite of all reserve infantry "regiments" in Toronto could possibly fill a Battalion at most. Much smaller for much smaller units elsewhere in Canada. Let's cut the crap with the TBGs and clear the overhead.

Same can be said with the 3 understrength regiments that are about a company short each of being full battalions.

That and our penchant for a bazillion HQs, we might be able to squeak a proper Brigade out for NATO.

 

[FJAG]

An interesting graphic from the UK Daily Mail.

I’m not seeing the numbers. I see a lot of theory - but you don’t have enough tanks for 2 Mech Bde’s - I think the Arty is questionable without rockets and I don’t think the 777 is correct for Mech Bde’s.

The killers to me is GBAD is absolutely nonexistent, and Anti-Armor is thin at best - and CSS is sparse. That’s specifically why I don’t see the ability to field the Bde.

A mech brigade doesn't necessarily need armour. Not every brigade is an ABCT. Even SBCTs do not have tanks. There are enough tanks to flesh out one brigade well and two in a half-assed fashion easily to the standard of an SBCT.

The same for guns. SBCTs use M777s and we have enough guns for one and and two-thirds battalions. I don't like the M777 for a mech brigade either but if its good enough for an SBCT then it will do for us as well. We can fairly easily pick up another six guns to round out two battalions. We already have more than enough FSCCs, FOOs and JTACs. No ABCT or SBCT has rockets. They're a divisional and corps asset as is aviation of which we do have some resources in 1 Wing.

Air defence is the same issue. No ABCT or SBCT has organic air defence units, just scattered Stingers which as I indicated could be UOR'd fairly rapidly. Note as well that 4 RCA(GS)'s has established an AD battery that is becoming the centre of all things command and control of air defence resources while another utilizes the MRRs. That provides critical AD system linkage to whatever theatre resources there are.

There are TOW for anti-armour but quite frankly what's needed could be UOR'd if the situation demands it. My guess is that we will be dealing with this deficiency in the short term.

Between the three RegF brigades, there are enough CSS resources to flesh out two brigades and there is even enough non-tactical CSS transport to flesh out far-rear area supply and transport requirements.

Like I said before, I think Canada's Army is underperforming. I just disagree with the statement that it can't field a brigade. I'm of the view that Canada could field two SBCTs equivalents with fairly minor capability gaps that could be filled rapidly through UORs. In addition there is enough depth in both RegF and ResF personnel that we could sustain them at least through a Roto 0 and 1.

 

[FJAG]

If the British Army, one of the oldest professional military forces in history, can rebadge, consolidate, and effectively employ fighting units without tradition falling apart... I think the Pictou County Fusiliers and their section plus parade strength can be too.

Not only can they be they bloody well need to be.

The composite of all reserve infantry "regiments" in Toronto could possibly fill a Battalion at most. Much smaller for much smaller units elsewhere in Canada. Let's cut the crap with the TBGs and clear the overhead.

Same can be said with the 3 understrength regiments that are about a company short each of being full battalions.

It's been some time since I crunched the numbers, but a few years back, 32 Bde came out at around 2,100 all ranks which should get you roughly two battalions and an artillery regiment. TBGs are a sign of failure.

That and our penchant for a bazillion HQs, we might be able to squeak a proper Brigade out for NATO.

Funny, isn't it how we can always find the PYs for another headquarters or directorate? But a third gun battery ... ?

 

[Kirkhill]

An interesting graphic from the UK Daily Mail.

A mech brigade doesn't necessarily need armour. Not every brigade is an ABCT. Even SBCTs do not have tanks. There are enough tanks to flesh out one brigade well and two in a half-assed fashion easily to the standard of an SBCT.

The same for guns. SBCTs use M777s and we have enough guns for one and and two-thirds battalions. I don't like the M777 for a mech brigade either but if its good enough for an SBCT then it will do for us as well. We can fairly easily pick up another six guns to round out two battalions. We already have more than enough FSCCs, FOOs and JTACs. No ABCT or SBCT has rockets. They're a divisional and corps asset as is aviation of which we do have some resources in 1 Wing.

Air defence is the same issue. No ABCT or SBCT has organic air defence units, just scattered Stingers which as I indicated could be UOR'd fairly rapidly. Note as well that 4 RCA(GS)'s has established an AD battery that is becoming the centre of all things command and control of air defence resources while another utilizes the MRRs. That provides critical AD system linkage to whatever theatre resources there are.

There are TOW for anti-armour but quite frankly what's needed could be UOR'd if the situation demands it. My guess is that we will be dealing with this deficiency in the short term.

Between the three RegF brigades, there are enough CSS resources to flesh out two brigades and there is even enough non-tactical CSS transport to flesh out far-rear area supply and transport requirements.

Like I said before, I think Canada's Army is underperforming. I just disagree with the statement that it can't field a brigade. I'm of the view that Canada could field two SBCTs equivalents with fairly minor capability gaps that could be filled rapidly through UORs. In addition there is enough depth in both RegF and ResF personnel that we could sustain them at least through a Roto 0 and 1.

Are UORs a viable course of action when everybody and his brother is trying to buy the same stuff at the same time.

We have vehicles and gas. The Americans have got vehicles up the Ying Yang. What nobody seems to have is bullets. Especially the Gee-Whiz ones we have been reading about for the last decade and more.

 

[KevinB]

A mech brigade doesn't necessarily need armour. Not every brigade is an ABCT. Even SBCTs do not have tanks. There are enough tanks to flesh out one brigade well and two in a half-assed fashion easily to the standard of an SBCT.

Given the option - would you prefer to fight in Europe with an ABCT or a SBCT?
I don't view the SBCT as a preferred option...
Sure they work for certain applications - but conventional force work in Europe wouldn't be me preferred choice.

The same for guns. SBCTs use M777s and we have enough guns for one and and two-thirds battalions. I don't like the M777 for a mech brigade either but if its good enough for an SBCT then it will do for us as well. We can fairly easily pick up another six guns to round out two battalions. We already have more than enough FSCCs, FOOs and JTACs. No ABCT or SBCT has rockets. They're a divisional and corps asset as is aviation of which we do have some resources in 1 Wing.

How many Rocket Batteries does Canada have at Div level? or Attack Helicopter Bn's?

Air defence is the same issue. No ABCT or SBCT has organic air defence units, just scattered Stingers which as I indicated could be UOR'd fairly rapidly.

But we have those Stingers - and lots of Cbt Arms folks trained on them, as two man Stinger Det's down to the Platoon level...
We also have multiple levels of GBAD that mean an individual Bde is covered by higher.

Note as well that 4 RCA(GS)'s has established an AD battery that is becoming the centre of all things command and control of air defence resources while another utilizes the MRRs. That provides critical AD system linkage to whatever theatre resources there are.

The fact is Canada is missing those Higher Level Div resources - which can't then be used to support a Bde.
So one is relying on another Nation to provided top cover.

There are TOW for anti-armour but quite frankly what's needed could be UOR'd if the situation demands it. My guess is that we will be dealing with this deficiency in the short term.

IIRC a Bradley Platoon has more TOW than Canada has operational at this point in time...

Between the three RegF brigades, there are enough CSS resources to flesh out two brigades and there is even enough non-tactical CSS transport to flesh out far-rear area supply and transport requirements.

Given Canada's fleet status - I will totally disagree

Like I said before, I think Canada's Army is underperforming. I just disagree with the statement that it can't field a brigade. I'm of the view that Canada could field two SBCTs equivalents with fairly minor capability gaps that could be filled rapidly through UORs. In addition there is enough depth in both RegF and ResF personnel that we could sustain them at least through a Roto 0 and 1.

I don't think it can field a credible Brigade that is properly equipped for combat in Europe nor can it support one.

The lack of night vision in the CAF is beyond criminal, let alone other issues.

 

[FJAG]

Are UORs a viable course of action when everybody and his brother is trying to buy the same stuff at the same time.

We have vehicles and gas. The Americans have got vehicles up the Ying Yang. What nobody seems to have is bullets. Especially the Gee-Whiz ones we have been reading about for the last decade and more.

Just as much as a capital project. Product availability in times of high demand is unconcerned with the method of acquisition. Just as an example, when we bought the M777s we also bought 33 Excalibur rounds. Why 33? That's the amount of rounds the manufacturer could make available from the parts that were left in the shop after having done the production run for the US Army and Marines.

I don't have visibility of our ammo stocks right now. I imagine they're not that healthy.

Given the option - would you prefer to fight in Europe with an ABCT or a SBCT?
I don't view the SBCT as a preferred option...

Strangely enough the US 2nd Cav Regt is a four battalion Stryker formation.

Sure they work for certain applications - but conventional force work in Europe wouldn't be me preferred choice.


How many Rocket Batteries does Canada have at Div level? or Attack Helicopter Bn's?

Depends on which division we become a part of.

But we have those Stingers - and lots of Cbt Arms folks trained on them, as two man Stinger Det's down to the Platoon level...
We also have multiple levels of GBAD that mean an individual Bde is covered by higher.

Again - it depends on which formation Canadians are a part of

The fact is Canada is missing those Higher Level Div resources - which can't then be used to support a Bde.
So one is relying on another Nation to provided top cover.

Yes. It's worked like that in international armies for quite some time. Take Korea as an example.

IIRC a Bradley Platoon has more TOW than Canada has operational at this point in time...

That's not right

Given Canada's fleet status - I will totally disagree

I don't think it can field a credible Brigade that is properly equipped for combat in Europe nor can it support one.

The lack of night vision in the CAF is beyond criminal, let alone other issues.

We will continue to disagree on this.

 

[Kirkhill]

Just as much as a capital project. Product availability in times of high demand is unconcerned with the method of acquisition. Just as an example, when we bought the M777s we also bought 33 Excalibur rounds. Why 33? That's the amount of rounds the manufacturer could make available from the parts that were left in the shop after having done the production run for the US Army and Marines.

I don't have visibility of our ammo stocks right now. I imagine they're not that healthy.


Strangely enough the US 2nd Cav Regt is a four battalion Stryker formation.

Depends on which division we become a part of.

Again - it depends on which formation Canadians are a part of

Yes. It's worked like that in international armies for quite some time. Take Korea as an example.

That's not right

We will continue to disagree on this.

The Ukrainians are finding jobs for anyone willing to fight with whatever weapons and vehicles are to hand. I am sure that Canada is capable of contributing to the effort. They are probably not going to be a penetration force. But a Mobile light force, a covering force, a follow on force....

 

[Fabius]

UORs don’t come from magic though. Canada has always assumed it can just UOR away problems like ATGMs but how does that work when the US military has given away 1/3 of its missile stockpiles and industry is talking about two years to ramp up production to replace that?

Imagine if in addition to UKR a US Corps was in heavy contact, no way Canada’s UOR ideas would work and I suspect that’s true for multiple systems.

In terms of sustainability even if we have enough tanks but only have 1 replacement part does that equal a Bde? Maybe on paper but not in combat on the NATO border.