Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.

[army]

Posted by Eric Cozens <ericoz@sympatico.ca> on Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:03:24 -0500
G‘Day all!
I‘m apt to ramble on a bit so, if it gets too cumbersome just ‘scroll on
down‘. I guess I have destroyed my image as a ‘lurker‘ as I keep
emerging.
Greg, I am not taking you to task but, I believe that your comments
regarding the suitability of "youngens" for military service and
pleading with Mommy etc. need addressing. I speak from experience:
I left school at the age of 14 - not a drop out, but because we didn‘t
have a school. I lived in Dover, Kent England 21 miles from France
and those schools that were not damaged were closed. Dad was away, Mum
working. At age 15 I enlisted as 2242 Pte Eric E. V. Cozens in 12
Platoon, ‘C‘ Coy, 3rd Battalion Kent Home Guard, affiliated with the
Royal East Kent Regiment The Buffs. Training was pretty arduous,
Extensive PT, Ross .300 Canadian Rifle - straight Bolt action and
positively dangerous and were withdrawn from Canadian troops. Then
issued with the SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield .303 Rifle, Gained
Marksman - Live Bombing with the 36 Mills Grenade, 2" mortar, BREN LMG
.303 a modified Czechoslovakian BRNO by Enfield, Bayonet drill with
the 18" bayonet, Squad and arms drill, unarmed combat and when we were
either being bombed or shelled cross channel worked with civil
defence. Off duty I was completing my second year apprenticeship at the
Invicta Motor Engineering Works in Canterbury, just 15 miles up the road
by ‘bus. Normal transport was a bike. Enlisted at age 17, already
fully trained in the 9th Kings Liverpool Regiment at Lytham St.Annes,
Lancashire. Transferred to the Royal Electrical and Mechanical
Engineers in may 1945 etc. etc. ad infinitum.
No I was not the only one in my age group and no, I am not masquerading
as a "Lt", despite my early start I only made it to WO1 and I am not
ashamed of that ‘though I expect with a leeetle better education or the
will to study for an engineering degree - might have been a different
story. What I am really saying is that, given the right circumstances
and sufficient incentive anyone can do anything. Thanks for letting me
hold forth
Regards to ‘the list‘ Eric Arte et Marte
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[army]

Posted by "The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org> on Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:06:42 -0700
I agree, Sir, in principle, with everything you have said. However... I
think you will find, the youth of today are a different story. Now, I hated,
as much as anybody, Dad‘s, and Gramp‘s "When I was you age....." stories,
but I think there is some truth, amongst the embellishment. I saw a
tremendous difference between the quality of recruit, say in 1984, to when I
got out in 1996. I can only imagine the difference the old lads saw, over a
span of 20 or 30 years. Now, that being said, the idealist in me
knows,hopes, that many young men and women will rise up to the challenge,
and prove naysayers like me to be wrong. That young people of today, and the
future, will be every bit as dependable as we need them to be. The realist
in me defeatist? however, has doubts. People like you, and yours, Mr
Cozens, have been my heroes.......people of my generation, and those to
come, however, don‘t seem to have the respect, the toughness borne of
hardship, or the spirit of personal accountability and responsibility that I
think is necessary.... I pray, Sir, that you are right, and I am wrong.. I
guess time will tell.
With Respect,
Sgt MacFarlane MJ, CD
Ubique
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Cozens"
To:
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:03 PM
Subject: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
> G‘Day all!
> I‘m apt to ramble on a bit so, if it gets too cumbersome just ‘scroll on
> down‘. I guess I have destroyed my image as a ‘lurker‘ as I keep
> emerging.
> Greg, I am not taking you to task but, I believe that your comments
> regarding the suitability of "youngens" for military service and
> pleading with Mommy etc. need addressing. I speak from experience:
>
--------------------------------------------------------
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[army]

Posted by "Steve Harwood" <sharwood@iprimus.ca> on Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:04:49 -0500
Hey Eric, glad to have you aboard this list. We can learn lots from your
experiences in WW2. My Dad was with RCA as a gunner, then RCOC and then
RCEME 1939-45. I lost him last year at age 79 and he was always full of
great stories and taught alot of truth.
Glad that yu are here!
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca [mailtowner-army-list@CdnArmy.ca]On
Behalf Of Eric Cozens
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:03 PM
To: army-list-digest@CdnArmy.ca
Subject: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
G‘Day all!
I‘m apt to ramble on a bit so, if it gets too cumbersome just ‘scroll on
down‘. I guess I have destroyed my image as a ‘lurker‘ as I keep
emerging.
Greg, I am not taking you to task but, I believe that your comments
regarding the suitability of "youngens" for military service and
pleading with Mommy etc. need addressing. I speak from experience:
I left school at the age of 14 - not a drop out, but because we didn‘t
have a school. I lived in Dover, Kent England 21 miles from France
and those schools that were not damaged were closed. Dad was away, Mum
working. At age 15 I enlisted as 2242 Pte Eric E. V. Cozens in 12
Platoon, ‘C‘ Coy, 3rd Battalion Kent Home Guard, affiliated with the
Royal East Kent Regiment The Buffs. Training was pretty arduous,
Extensive PT, Ross .300 Canadian Rifle - straight Bolt action and
positively dangerous and were withdrawn from Canadian troops. Then
issued with the SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield .303 Rifle, Gained
Marksman - Live Bombing with the 36 Mills Grenade, 2" mortar, BREN LMG
.303 a modified Czechoslovakian BRNO by Enfield, Bayonet drill with
the 18" bayonet, Squad and arms drill, unarmed combat and when we were
either being bombed or shelled cross channel worked with civil
defence. Off duty I was completing my second year apprenticeship at the
Invicta Motor Engineering Works in Canterbury, just 15 miles up the road
by ‘bus. Normal transport was a bike. Enlisted at age 17, already
fully trained in the 9th Kings Liverpool Regiment at Lytham St.Annes,
Lancashire. Transferred to the Royal Electrical and Mechanical
Engineers in may 1945 etc. etc. ad infinitum.
No I was not the only one in my age group and no, I am not masquerading
as a "Lt", despite my early start I only made it to WO1 and I am not
ashamed of that ‘though I expect with a leeetle better education or the
will to study for an engineering degree - might have been a different
story. What I am really saying is that, given the right circumstances
and sufficient incentive anyone can do anything. Thanks for letting me
hold forth
Regards to ‘the list‘ Eric Arte et Marte
--------------------------------------------------------
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[army]

Posted by "Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com> on Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:15:12 -0700
I suppose that its time to step in. When I joined in the early 70s, the age
was 16. As a CO now I can truthfully tell you that there is little
difference between the 70s and the 2000s except that fewer of the "kids"
have experience in the woods camping, farming, whatever. Having said
that, they are as bright and as eager to learn as I remember. Our system
has also changed over that time. Somethings that I and my mates did
remember John would put soldiers in jail now.
Don
----- Original Message -----
From: The MacFarlanes‘
To:
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
> I agree, Sir, in principle, with everything you have said. However... I
> think you will find, the youth of today are a different story. Now, I
hated,
> as much as anybody, Dad‘s, and Gramp‘s "When I was you age....." stories,
> but I think there is some truth, amongst the embellishment. I saw a
> tremendous difference between the quality of recruit, say in 1984, to when
I
> got out in 1996. I can only imagine the difference the old lads saw, over
a
> span of 20 or 30 years. Now, that being said, the idealist in me
> knows,hopes, that many young men and women will rise up to the challenge,
> and prove naysayers like me to be wrong. That young people of today, and
the
> future, will be every bit as dependable as we need them to be. The realist
> in me defeatist? however, has doubts. People like you, and yours, Mr
> Cozens, have been my heroes.......people of my generation, and those to
> come, however, don‘t seem to have the respect, the toughness borne of
> hardship, or the spirit of personal accountability and responsibility that
I
> think is necessary.... I pray, Sir, that you are right, and I am wrong.. I
> guess time will tell.
> With Respect,
> Sgt MacFarlane MJ, CD
> Ubique
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Eric Cozens"
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:03 PM
> Subject: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
>
>
> > G‘Day all!
> > I‘m apt to ramble on a bit so, if it gets too cumbersome just ‘scroll on
> > down‘. I guess I have destroyed my image as a ‘lurker‘ as I keep
> > emerging.
> > Greg, I am not taking you to task but, I believe that your comments
> > regarding the suitability of "youngens" for military service and
> > pleading with Mommy etc. need addressing. I speak from experience:
> >
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
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[army]

Posted by "Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com> on Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:23:45 -0700
"Steady, the Buffs." Hope you were a tall lad for your age, Pte. Cozens,
E.E.V.
That wasn‘t you I saw in that horrid tele program "Dad‘s Army"? About half
one episode was all I could take.
"Sprog"? Doesn‘t that refer to a young member of RAF aircrew? I‘ve no idea
what the letters stand for.
----- Original Message -----
From: Eric Cozens
To:
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:03 PM
Subject: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
> G‘Day all!
> I‘m apt to ramble on a bit so, if it gets too cumbersome just ‘scroll on
> down‘. I guess I have destroyed my image as a ‘lurker‘ as I keep
> emerging.
> Greg, I am not taking you to task but, I believe that your comments
> regarding the suitability of "youngens" for military service and
> pleading with Mommy etc. need addressing. I speak from experience:
> I left school at the age of 14 - not a drop out, but because we didn‘t
> have a school. I lived in Dover, Kent England 21 miles from France
> and those schools that were not damaged were closed. Dad was away, Mum
> working. At age 15 I enlisted as 2242 Pte Eric E. V. Cozens in 12
> Platoon, ‘C‘ Coy, 3rd Battalion Kent Home Guard, affiliated with the
> Royal East Kent Regiment The Buffs. Training was pretty arduous,
> Extensive PT, Ross .300 Canadian Rifle - straight Bolt action and
> positively dangerous and were withdrawn from Canadian troops. Then
> issued with the SMLE Short Magazine Lee Enfield .303 Rifle, Gained
> Marksman - Live Bombing with the 36 Mills Grenade, 2" mortar, BREN LMG
> .303 a modified Czechoslovakian BRNO by Enfield, Bayonet drill with
> the 18" bayonet, Squad and arms drill, unarmed combat and when we were
> either being bombed or shelled cross channel worked with civil
> defence. Off duty I was completing my second year apprenticeship at the
> Invicta Motor Engineering Works in Canterbury, just 15 miles up the road
> by ‘bus. Normal transport was a bike. Enlisted at age 17, already
> fully trained in the 9th Kings Liverpool Regiment at Lytham St.Annes,
> Lancashire. Transferred to the Royal Electrical and Mechanical
> Engineers in may 1945 etc. etc. ad infinitum.
>
> No I was not the only one in my age group and no, I am not masquerading
> as a "Lt", despite my early start I only made it to WO1 and I am not
> ashamed of that ‘though I expect with a leeetle better education or the
> will to study for an engineering degree - might have been a different
> story. What I am really saying is that, given the right circumstances
> and sufficient incentive anyone can do anything. Thanks for letting me
> hold forth
>
> Regards to ‘the list‘ Eric Arte et Marte
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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[army]

Posted by CoastDanny@aol.com on Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:41:22 EST
THis is either gonna get me a royal kick in the *** or a clap on the shoulder depending on which side of the fence you sit.
The subject of youth today. Scary topic as everytime I open my mouth my father‘s words come out.
I joined at 29, fairly mature some would say. I did my recruit training with a bunch of kids, average age was 20 and that included two of us fogies. All but one were good "kids". There for a reason and determined to learn. I think that my age had a great deal in my surviving the course. Having grown up in a Service family I knew what to expect and was not concerned. If I had joined when Iwas 18 or worse 16 or 17, the first 19 year old corporal who thought he was hot **** would have gotten a knuckle sandwich. At 29 I bit my tongue trying not to laugh at being told by this young snot that I possibly was the "Worst Soldier in all of Nato". Thank god for smoke breaks.
SUM UP...I knew that was coming....I doubt we can paint all of the young kids today with the same brush. Bad idea. There has always been good kids and bad kids and still is.
Recently I had the pleasure of chaperoning a high school dance. I was shocked, several kids came over and said "Thank you for being here, sir." I doubt this generation, as a group, will be any worse than mine, or the one before that.
--------------------------------------------------------
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[army]

Posted by "The MacFarlanes‘" <desrtrat@amug.org> on Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:57:11 -0700
Geez.... maybe on this thread, I will be the lone dissenter... oh well :-
MacF
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
> THis is either gonna get me a royal kick in the *** or a clap on the
shoulder depending on which side of the fence you sit.
> The subject of youth today. Scary topic as everytime I open my mouth my
father‘s words come out.
--------------------------------------------------------
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[army]

Posted by CoastDanny@aol.com on Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:15:56 EST
MacF,
Glad to see it is someone else is the "lone dissenter" this time! LOL BTDT.
Remember what opinions are like right?
Danny
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[army]

Posted by "dave newcombe" <dave.newcombe@home.com> on Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:20:32 -0800
I did my basic training at the tender age of 17 yrs, 4 mos....Most of the
other kids were 19 and up..It only took me 5 minutes to learn to shut up. I
was the youngest in my course 7902- 3 Plt---Instructor was Sgt.Turnbull of
the RCR, i was also one of the biggest. I learned that a small 22 yr old,
with lots of experience, can kick the snot out of a green 17 yr old...LOL
I was pretty much the same as everyone else, except my bullsh*t pile was
smaller, so I had to learn to listen.
When I joined the reserves, at the tender age of 29, there was only one
older fellow in my BTT. I think I did better physically at that age,
mentally it was harder, because I outranked all the instructors. I knew
that it was a process, but it still got to me..The kids on the course were
fine mentally, but not as ready for the physical aspect..go figure?
The one thing I learned from both of them was:
the less we expect out of kids, the less the deliver...The more we expect,
the more they will try and meet those expectations..
The younger peolpe are no different today, WE just expect less for some
reason...so set the bar high, and see how many can make the grade.
----- Original Message -----
From:
To:
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
> THis is either gonna get me a royal kick in the *** or a clap on the
shoulder depending on which side of the fence you sit.
> The subject of youth today. Scary topic as everytime I open my mouth my
father‘s words come out.
> I joined at 29, fairly mature some would say. I did my recruit training
with a bunch of kids, average age was 20 and that included two of us fogies.
All but one were good "kids". There for a reason and determined to learn.
I think that my age had a great deal in my surviving the course. Having
grown up in a Service family I knew what to expect and was not concerned. If
I had joined when Iwas 18 or worse 16 or 17, the first 19 year old corporal
who thought he was hot **** would have gotten a knuckle sandwich. At 29 I
bit my tongue trying not to laugh at being told by this young snot that I
possibly was the "Worst Soldier in all of Nato". Thank god for smoke breaks.
> SUM UP...I knew that was coming....I doubt we can paint all of the young
kids today with the same brush. Bad idea. There has always been good kids
and bad kids and still is.
> Recently I had the pleasure of chaperoning a high school dance. I was
shocked, several kids came over and said "Thank you for being here, sir." I
doubt this generation, as a group, will be any worse than mine, or the one
before that.
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
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[army]

Posted by "Donald Schepens" <a.schepens@home.com> on Tue, 27 Feb 2001 07:12:03 -0700
I really have to agree. I‘ve seldom been disappointed when I‘ve asked for
young people to do "something" for me.
----- Original Message -----
From: dave newcombe
To:
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 9:20 PM
Subject: Re: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
> I did my basic training at the tender age of 17 yrs, 4 mos....Most of the
> other kids were 19 and up..It only took me 5 minutes to learn to shut up.
I
> was the youngest in my course 7902- 3 Plt---Instructor was Sgt.Turnbull
of
> the RCR, i was also one of the biggest. I learned that a small 22 yr
old,
> with lots of experience, can kick the snot out of a green 17 yr old...LOL
> I was pretty much the same as everyone else, except my bullsh*t pile was
> smaller, so I had to learn to listen.
> When I joined the reserves, at the tender age of 29, there was only one
> older fellow in my BTT. I think I did better physically at that age,
> mentally it was harder, because I outranked all the instructors. I knew
> that it was a process, but it still got to me..The kids on the course were
> fine mentally, but not as ready for the physical aspect..go figure?
> The one thing I learned from both of them was:
> the less we expect out of kids, the less the deliver...The more we expect,
> the more they will try and meet those expectations..
> The younger peolpe are no different today, WE just expect less for some
> reason...so set the bar high, and see how many can make the grade.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From:
> To:
> Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 7:41 PM
> Subject: Re: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
>
>
> > THis is either gonna get me a royal kick in the *** or a clap on the
> shoulder depending on which side of the fence you sit.
> > The subject of youth today. Scary topic as everytime I open my mouth my
> father‘s words come out.
> > I joined at 29, fairly mature some would say. I did my recruit training
> with a bunch of kids, average age was 20 and that included two of us
fogies.
> All but one were good "kids". There for a reason and determined to learn.
> I think that my age had a great deal in my surviving the course. Having
> grown up in a Service family I knew what to expect and was not concerned.
If
> I had joined when Iwas 18 or worse 16 or 17, the first 19 year old
corporal
> who thought he was hot **** would have gotten a knuckle sandwich. At 29 I
> bit my tongue trying not to laugh at being told by this young snot that I
> possibly was the "Worst Soldier in all of Nato". Thank god for smoke
breaks.
> > SUM UP...I knew that was coming....I doubt we can paint all of the young
> kids today with the same brush. Bad idea. There has always been good kids
> and bad kids and still is.
> > Recently I had the pleasure of chaperoning a high school dance. I was
> shocked, several kids came over and said "Thank you for being here, sir."
I
> doubt this generation, as a group, will be any worse than mine, or the one
> before that.
> > --------------------------------------------------------
> > NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> > to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> > remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> > message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
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[army]

Posted by Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca> on Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:45:44 -0700
Don‘t get me started on the level of the bar - expectations today
seem to be "aas long as they‘re breathing and can fit into a bean bag - let
em in"
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[army]

Posted by "Ian Edwards" <iedwards@home.com> on Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:03:41 -0700
Well, except that in the 70s I think you lived in rural Saskabush all of
the Wheat Province is rural and now you live right next to the big siddy.
----- Original Message -----
From: Donald Schepens
To:
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2001 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
> I suppose that its time to step in. When I joined in the early 70s, the
age
> was 16. As a CO now I can truthfully tell you that there is little
> difference between the 70s and the 2000s except that fewer of the "kids"
> have experience in the woods camping, farming, whatever. Having said
> that, they are as bright and as eager to learn as I remember. Our system
> has also changed over that time. Somethings that I and my mates did
> remember John would put soldiers in jail now.
>
> Don
> -----
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[army]

Posted by "dave newcombe" <dave.newcombe@home.com> on Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:33:06 -0800
Thats my point, nobody who joins, asks for the bar to be lowered...if we set
the standards low, they will meet them low.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Derrick Forsythe"
To: "‘army-list@cdnarmy.ca‘"
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 7:45 AM
Subject: RE: Young "Sprogs" suitability for service.
> Don‘t get me started on the level of the bar - expectations today
> seem to be "aas long as they‘re breathing and can fit into a bean bag -
let
> em in"
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@CdnArmy.ca from the account you wish to
> remove, with the line "unsubscribe army-list" in the
> message body.
>
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[army]

Posted by Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca> on Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:12:03 -0700
the problem - at risk of having another rocket from "good old what‘s his
name" you know who you are launched in my direction the standards are
being set at a far, far higher level than we can ever hope to influence.
At a time where Reservists are being increasingly integrated into Regular
Force Operations it would seem we should be beefing up training - not
moving, as we are, to gutting what is considered core competency soldier
training.
On this point I would like some verification - CSS trades QL3 - does it or
does it not include C9 a section level weapon training grenades section
tactics pepperpotting. I ask because even at the DPs truckers need to
know how to defend their position. I‘m hearing they don‘t receive this
training at the 2 or 3 level
my question is if not - why not.
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