Whither the Royal Canadian Legion? Or RCL Withers?

[George Wallace]

Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.

Missing funds close P.E.I. legion hall

Last Updated: Monday, April 19, 2010 | 7:29 AM AT
CBC News
Article Link


A Royal Canadian Legion hall on P.E.I.'s North Shore closed for good Saturday, unable to recover from an incident that led to theft charges.

'This was our branch. It was our home. But it's just memories now.' —Arthur Pineau
RCMP have charged George Allan Doucette from North Rustico with theft and fraud in connection with the missing money.

The North Rustico Legion reported the loss of a significant amount of money in the fall of 2008. That incident, along with dwindling membership, prompted members to vote in favour of closing the legion hall last week.

Last Friday, a handful of men were enjoying a last game of cards and glass of beer. One of them was Arthur Pineau, one of the few veterans left here.

"We had a great legion going," said Pineau.

"I'm not bragging, but we were the envy of all the country branches. This was our branch. It was our home. But it's just memories now. That's all we have of it, I guess."

New location sought
The members will try to sell the property, but they still want to keep their chapter alive and find another place to meet. Paul Sampson has been a member of the legion for years.

"Comradeship, that's what it's all about. Like these gentlemen over here now. They're here every afternoon to play cards, chat and tell a few lies," said Sampson.

"They've been doing it for years.... Where are we going to go?"

Officials with the legion have been trying to keep the building open since the money went missing. They tried recruiting younger members but it wasn't enough.

Pineau said the loss will be a blow to the community.

"I'm going to miss it a lot. There's a lot of guys with it. It's a very sad time for us," he said.

North Rustico is the fourth legion hall to close on P.E.I.

Doucette is charged with theft over $5,000, fraud over $5,000 and uttering a forged document. He pleaded not guilty to the charges in March. The trial is scheduled for September.



Read more (Comments): http://www.cbc.ca/canada/prince-edward-island/story/2010/04/19/pei-missing-money-legion-closed-584.html#socialcomments#ixzz0lam7S5N8


I remember about fifteen years ago, the same thing happened at the Borden, PEI Legion.  The Manager took off with all the cash.

 

[jollyjacktar]

It is sad that the Branch was forced to close as a result of theft.  It does however make me wonder in the coming years how the Legion will survive the increased numbers of Vets from WW2/Korea passing on.  Is it in danger of becoming memory?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Legions are closing all over the country for many reasons. In large part, the Legions have been taken over by Associate members who have no, or few, ties to the military. Not many Executive boards have Vets in charge. On the face, the Associates make hay about the Legion goals, but few really take it to heart. They have become little social empires that really don't think much about the vets. They have trouble looking past next weekks meat draw. They have been told time and again, that in order to survive, they have to reach out and attracts the current crop of returning vets, but they don't. It would likely mean that down the line the Executive boards would return back to ex military people and the Associates don't want that. It's sad to go to Legion functions and see everyone at the head table wearing only Legion medals on the right and nothing on the left side.

 

[Tank Troll]

It's sad to go to Legion functions and see everyone at the head table wearing only Legion medals on the right and nothing on the left side.

This is so true. Last time I was at my home town legion there were only 5 vets left and all the head table had their medals on the right side. A couple actually looked a me with disdain and said that while I was traipsing around the world they were actually doing some good work helping out in the comunity, and promptly showed me their 25 years worth of legion medals. Before I could say any thing my Dad looked at me and said "never argue with fools as some one watching might not be able to tell the differance." Out of respect for my Father I bit my tounge, left and haven't been back.

 

[Michael OLeary]

It would be interesting to know what percentage of money raised by Legions across the country goes into managing property, buildings and other infrastructure. Especially as some Branches have decreasing membership, how much of their efforts simply support the decline of a slowly failing business model. By comparison, I was recently at a dinner with a Legion Branch that, since its creation in 1929, has had embedded in their own constitution that they would never own a building.

My other question would be: what happens to the collected memorabilia, etc., that so many branches have on their walls, in display cases and in storerooms?  Who actually owns it and what is being down to ensure its further preservation in accordance with original donor wishes?

 

[George Wallace]

My other question would be: what happens to the collected memorabilia, etc., that so many branches have on their walls, in display cases and in storerooms?  Who actually owns it and what is being down to ensure its further preservation in accordance with original donor wishes?

Unfortunately, it really doesn't matter what the original donor's wishes may be, unless it is a Temporary Loan to the Legion from the owner.  Just as a Mess may decide to throw donations into the dumpster should they not match the new decor, so would a Legion.  In the majority of cases, the people making these decisions don't have the knowledge or training to realize the value of these items and treat them as junk.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Legions are closing all over the country for many reasons. In large part, the Legions have been taken over by Associate members who have no, or few, ties to the military. Not many Executive boards have Vets in charge. On the face, the Associates make hay about the Legion goals, but few really take it to heart. They have become little social empires that really don't think much about the vets. They have trouble looking past next weekks meat draw. They have been told time and again, that in order to survive, they have to reach out and attracts the current crop of returning vets, but they don't. It would likely mean that down the line the Executive boards would return back to ex military people and the Associates don't want that. It's sad to go to Legion functions and see everyone at the head table wearing only Legion medals on the right and nothing on the left side.

I'm uncomfortable with calling myself a vet but technically I guess I am. (Obviously like many many others here)

With all due respect to the Vets I've been to the legion numerous times for various things and I've always been made to feel quite unwelcomed. The same with my peers who I was overseas with.  I've flt like I was almost tresspassing at some closed door club.  I realize what I (we) have went through differs greatly than the generations before us but at what point does the next generation start filling up the ranks of the legion?

 

[gt102]

This is so true. Last time I was at my home town legion there were only 5 vets left and all the head table had their medals on the right side. A couple actually looked a me with disdain and said that while I was traipsing around the world they were actually doing some good work helping out in the comunity, and promptly showed me their 25 years worth of legion medals. Before I could say any thing my Dad looked at me and said "never argue with fools as some one watching might not be able to tell the differance." Out of respect for my Father I bit my tounge, left and haven't been back.

You have a strong willpower good sir.

That chap/gal has absolutely no brain in that head of theirs.

 

[Tank Troll]

Flawed Design

I couldn't agree with you more. I have felt the exact same way on many occasions. I wonder if the Korea Vets Were treated the same way by the WW II vets and were the WW II vets treated that way by the WW I vets. My Father is a WW II and Korea Vet, and supports the Military with out question. But whole heartedly thinks we have no business in Afghanistan and believes they should be left to their on vices.

Crowe

Had my Dad not been there, or said anything it would have been a totaly different story.

 

[my72jeep]

I under stand what some of you have gone through. As a 21 year old returning from a 3 year posting to Lahr in thew late 80's. I went with my brother 10 years my Senior, who had 6 months in the Reserves to the local Legion. upon ordering a beer I had to defend my right to be in the legion to a gaggle of associate members living on daddies past exploit's. I have never been back to that Legion, In fact I would go out of my way to avoid it and go to legion in the next town.

 

[jollyjacktar]

I'm uncomfortable with calling myself a vet but technically I guess I am. (Obviously like many many others here)

With all due respect to the Vets I've been to the legion numerous times for various things and I've always been made to feel quite unwelcomed. The same with my peers who I was overseas with.  I've flt like I was almost tresspassing at some closed door club.  I realize what I (we) have went through differs greatly than the generations before us but at what point does the next generation start filling up the ranks of the legion?

My Dad told me that when he came home from overseas in 45/6 he went to the No. 1 Branch in downtown Calgary.  He was in uniform and was told he could not come in for a drink and was basically treated like crap.  He said it took him many years to get over the poor welcome.  I myself, have not had a bad experience thankfully and hope that I never do.  Mind you it has been many years since I have darkened their door and I have not had dealings with the hoards of "associates" that are stepping into positions of power.  Maybe they might be troublesome.

 

[Old Sweat]

Cripes, we must be lucky here in a little town south of Ottawa. Mind you, we experienced troops working in our area during the ice storm, so that may have had an effect on local attitudes. The fact that we are a bedroom community for Ottawa and have a lot of members from all three services (and the ski team) living here does not hurt. We also lost a local lad in Afghanistan and his picture is on the wall in the Legion Hall. Another local was wounded a few tours back and there is at least soldier from here in country now. The local branch requests a contingent from Petawawa for each Remembrance Day and hosts them after the parade. Last year I spent a fair amount of time with the OC and CSM of a company from 3 RCR, who brought their troops down. Both made a point of saying how much they enjoyed coming to our town. While I am not a member of the legion, I support many of their events and have not experienced any disdain towards those still serving. Or maybe I am just too thick to notice.

 

[ekpiper]

I am a Legion member, primarily because I feel that it is one of the best organizations to support.  Some branches have many problems, (RecceGuy, are you referring to a certain branch near Jefferson?) but others are still doing many valiant things.  I do think that more Forces members should join up to keep it alive for the benefit of veterans going.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Unfortunately, it really doesn't matter what the original donor's wishes may be, unless it is a Temporary Loan to the Legion from the owner.  Just as a Mess may decide to throw donations into the dumpster should they not match the new decor, so would a Legion.  In the majority of cases, the people making these decisions don't have the knowledge or training to realize the value of these items and treat them as junk.

Yes George, that's the short blunt answer.

It also highlights the possible hypocrisy of any solution that does not uphold the Legions alleged role of preserving the memory of our nation's veterans.

Legion Mission Statement

OUR MISSION IS
TO SERVE VETERANS
AND THEIR DEPENDANTS,
PROMOTE REMEMBRANCE
AND ACT IN THE
SERVICE OF CANADA
AND ITS COMMUNITIES

To meet their own mission statement, I would hope that the Legion (local, regional and national), on some grander scale than moment the panic of a sheriff locking doors when the mortgage hasn't been paid, has some plan for the artifacts entrusted to their care (although I am equally certain they do not).

 

[mariomike]

To meet their own mission statement, I would hope that the Legion (local, regional and national), on some grander scale than moment the panic of a sheriff locking doors when the mortgage hasn't been paid, has some plan for the artifacts entrusted to their care (although I am equally certain they do not).

Hopefully, it doesn't end up on E-Bay. There was a similar story about items in a private museum being auctioned off on the Net.
Silverthorn Branch ( 1923 ) recently relocated from their historic old building to a shopping plaza. The old place was like the History Channel. I stopped by the new place, but it's just not the same. Swansea ( 1927 ) is still in operation. So is Mount Dennis ( 1954 ). I mostly know these places because my wife is a dart player. But, we used to go for drinks in them after work.
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/local/article/217553--silverthorn-legion-alive-and-well-in-new-digs

Come to think of it, the one on Queen W. closed as did the one by Roncesvalles. Dovercourt is still open.
I always looked in the display cases and asked questions. Wilson Heights is a busy one. Even since the base closed. Earlescourt moved into the Galleria. Weston moved too. Fairbank. There were lots of them! 
It's all sports bars now. Same thing happened to the cocktail bars out on the Airport strip. MADD probably had an impact as well.
I am of an age when most of our fathers were "in the war". Just regular working guys out watering their lawns. Sad, to see them go.

I am an Ordinary RCL member. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

Hopefully, it doesn't end up on E-Bay.

Better to eBay and thence to collectors who understand and respect the artifacts, than into a box in the last Sergeant-at-Arms basement (perhaps to be discarded as "old junk" by an unaware heir decades later).

I'd just like to know what the Royal Canadian Legion's general policies are on the disposal of artifacts from failing Branches. If they have any, that is.

 

[sheikyerbouti]

With all due respect to the Milnet community, I do not wish to spark some variation on this age old pissing match but when it comes to ther RCL, I stand fast as a staunch proponent of their activities (be they nation-wide or community based).

@ Mr. O'Leary

The RCL has a policy which states that all property of any branch is to be handed over to Provincial command for the safekeeping of material of historical interest. In furtherance to this policy, no individual may benefit from said divestiture of assets (hence no Sgt. at Arms will be stocking up their basement anytime soon.)


In the interest of spreading the goodwill of the RCL, I would invite the CF (active and retired) to examine their relationships with their local branches. From my perspective, the main reason why you guys (and gals) trash the RCl is because you no longer participate in the activities that we conduct on a regular basis. In the Vancouver region, the participation of the CF is non-existent apart from some individuals and cadet organizations. I find this particularily offensive when we are commemorating your services, yet your chain of command sees no reason to take part. There is always more to Remembrance than November 11th, yet you will be hard pressed to see anyone in CF dress take part in Vancouver unless they are collecting a paycheque.

As with any long term organization, the RCL is undergoing a rationalization of their functions and in the Lower Mainland and I would hazard the opinion that we are on the right track.

We are:
building new branches (PoCo, Burnaby, Port Moody, Steveston,etc.)
Housing more veterans (at affordable rates) in well kept properties (New Chelsea society)
offering rehab facilities to those in need of longer term care (Winch House, Vancouver)
supporting youth Track and Field and Cadet corps.
continuing scholarships and bursaries
Maintaining Remembrance duties and Memorials (new Vancouver Cenotaph, updates to New Westminster)
sponsoring community events (parades, Canada day, etc.)


While the membership picture is not rosy across the country, it is up to the individual branches to make themselves relevant to todays modern Veterans and I would argue that the major obstacle to this modernization would be the almost complete lack of interest from todays Vets. Numbering somewhere near 40, 000+ individuals, the complement of Afg. veterans is sufficient to make a dramatic impact on the RCL and its' governance but yet you choose not to participate. (new blood brings new ideas)


With over two hundred thousand members, this horse can still kick and will continue to do so regardless of CF involvement or not. It would be nice if you folks decide to get involved but if not, it's no matter, as this civilian and countless others will continue to honour your service (whether or not the Candian Forces and its' members choose to recognize us and our valuable contribution to the fabric of Canadian society).

 

[Michael OLeary]

sheikyerbouti,

Despite your tone, thank you for your reply on the RCL's intended policy concerning Branch property when a Branch closes.  Could you explain what happens when property is handed over to a provincial command when this occurs.

Now, at the risk of extending your chosen tangent:

Regarding the rest of your post, the only consistent impression I received from it is an expectation that the CF and CF members "need to get on board" with the RCL.  Perhaps it is the RCL that has to figure out how to attract new members, including and especially those currently serving and recently retired service members.

The onus, sheikyerbouti, should not be placed on us to meet your expectations.

Regards

Michael O'Leary

 

[Fishbone Jones]

With all due respect to the Milnet community, I do not wish to spark some variation on this age old pissing match but when it comes to ther RCL, I stand fast as a staunch proponent of their activities (be they nation-wide or community based).

While the membership picture is not rosy across the country, it is up to the individual branches to make themselves relevant to todays modern Veterans and I would argue that the major obstacle to this modernization would be the almost complete lack of interest from todays Vets. Numbering somewhere near 40, 000+ individuals, the complement of Afg. veterans is sufficient to make a dramatic impact on the RCL and its' governance but yet you choose not to participate. (new blood brings new ideas)


With over two hundred thousand members, this horse can still kick and will continue to do so regardless of CF involvement or not. It would be nice if you folks decide to get involved but if not, it's no matter, as this civilian and countless others will continue to honour your service (whether or not the Candian Forces and its' members choose to recognize us and our valuable contribution to the fabric of Canadian society).

Spoken just like a true Associate member

 

[SeanNewman]

I joined the Legion (594 Windsor) before I could drink as a 17-year old Mo-litia member, and already the "Ordinary" board was perhaps 1/10th the size of the "Associate" board.  15+ years later, now that a lot more WW2 vets have died, I think I'm in very rare company now.  It all seems to be based around dart leagues now though more than vets.

Unlike some experiences here though, I have had nothing but positive ones when I go back there, and am treated almost like a rock star.  I think that's personality dependent though because the bartender has been there forever and she's a great woman who never forgets anyone.  I donated a modest Afghan display box to them to show my appreciation.

Sheik,

Trying to read between the lines of what you are stating to see if there's anything to be learned by it, I think I am tracking your main points.  RecceGuy and Michael O'Leary are technically right that the onus should be on the Legion to attract today's soldiers, but at the same time I do think it's a two-way street and from my limited experience what I have seen supports what you are saying.

However, what hasn't been mentioned though is that it's not due to an anti-Legion mindset by any means but messes already existing most bases.  Other than 11 Nov, whenever someone is getting promoted, we go to the mess.  Whenever the is a formal dinner, we go to the mess.  Whenever there's a family function, it's at the mess.

But because of your post, the next time a social function is in the planning stage where I am at, I promise you that I will test the waters by suggesting the Legion instead of the mess to potentially build some bridges where they have been lost.