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parajumper

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Defence woes more than money

SCOTT TAYLOR / ON TARGET

http://www.espritdecorps.ca/defence_woes_more_than_money__sc.htm

On Oct. 18, the Polaris Institute tabled a report to the House of Commons finance committee, warning that Canada is spending too much money on defence.

The root of the institute's argument was that Canada has shifted away from the role of international peacekeeper, and we are now committing our fighting forces to flesh out the American-led coalition in Afghanistan.

To illustrate our overspending in pursuit of making Canada a military juggernaut, the report noted that we presently rank seventh among 26 NATO nations in terms of defence dollars spent and that our annual budget is greater than the 12 lowest spenders combined.

Naturally enough, the Defence Department dusted off its tub-thumping, harumphing, retired Col. Blimps to denounce the Polaris findings as nothing but a pile of socialist nonsense.

To make their point, the DND cheerleaders trot out their own scales and complain that Canada ranks barely above Luxembourg and Iceland at the bottom of the NATO spending totem pole when you compare the defence budgets as a percentage of our country's gross domestic product.

Suffice it to say that in this instance, both parties have a valid point. If the Polaris Institute researchers were to closely examine the state of Canada's military, they would realize that the recently announced defence budget increase of $20 billion (over five years) is barely enough to keep our existing capabilities functional.

The intention to purchase aircraft capable of strategic airlifts, new trucks for the army and supply ships for the navy should not offend socially conscious sensibilities, as these assets can be used to deliver either combat troops or humanitarian aid. However, the tub-thumpers are equally misguided in that they consistently refer to "underfunding" as the catch-all explanation for our military's singular lack of capability. What these old warhorses dread most is a straight-up comparison of value for defence dollar with a NATO ally. So here it goes.

The Republic of Turkey spends roughly the same amount in actual dollars ($11 billion Canadian) annually on national defence, as does Canada. With the disparity in our economy, this represents a greater percentage of their GDP, but given that they geographically border Iraq and Syria and have an internal security threat from militant Kurdish separatists, this is understandable. But let's focus on what sort of bang Canada and Turkey get for the same bucks.

Canada has a paper strength of 57,000 regular service personnel, with a reserve force hovering around 14,000. So we could mobilize 71,000 troops in a time of crisis. For their part, the Turks maintain a regular force of about 500,000 and a reserve of close to one million. In terms of combat units, Canada has just three under-strength brigades, and the Turks have four entire field armies, with no less than 14 armoured brigades.

While keen-eyed military buffs will point out that the Turkish tanks are mostly older models, the same can be said for Canada's leopard tanks. The difference is that Turkey is in the process of replacing its armoured fleet with newer main battle tanks, while Canada is purchasing lightweight wheeled vehicles instead.

Canada's army crown jewel is the elite 300-member Joint Task Force 2 commando unit. The Turkish generals can deploy up to five commando brigades (20,000 troops), with most of these special forces soldiers being battle-tested in combat.

In the air, Canada can scramble just three squadrons of CF-18 fighters, with another three squadrons of these planes sitting in mothballs. The Turks operate no fewer than 19 combat squadrons equipped with many of the newer-model F-16 fighters.

At sea, Canada can float 12 patrol frigates, three destroyers, two supply ships and 12 minesweepers, and we have four second-hand British subs still in the workshops. Turkey can put to sea 13 submarines, 20 frigates, 21 fast patrol boats, 21 minesweepers and 52 landing ships, and their navy has its very own amphibious brigade of marines.

Given the Turkish example, it is obviously possible to maintain a NATO-standard army, navy and air force for less than $12 billion a year. So are Canada's defence woes really due to a lack of funding?

staylor@herald.ca


Reproduced under the Fair Dealings provisions of the Copyright Act.
 
I don't know enough about Turkish government spending, the quality and quantity of Turkish
air/land/sea armaments, and how efficient and effective the Turkish military is to make comments
on the article's implications and the two initial points of view.  

Including the arctic islands, how many Turkeys can you fit into the land mass of Canada?   The
logistical component of operating a Canadian military in Canada and theoretically a Canadian-like
military in Turkey (or a Turkish-like military in Canada) is like comparing apples and oranges.   On a
logistical level day to day, Turkey doesn't have the same scale, diffusion, shoreline, and remote
operations as Canada.   To support it takes big bucks and it seems comparing dollars spent
between the countries isn't directly comparable.

Despite the glossing-over of the military numbers game, it would be interesting to get objective
information and see where the core issues really are.


 
Would you want to do your job at the pay rate of a Turkish conscript, in order to see the defence budget go futher?

Turkey has been rated at the European NATO country with the poorest level of military modernization coupled with the highest level of conscription.

http://wi.informatik.unibw-muenchen.de/_portal/_content/professorships/systemScience/armedForces/nomos99.pdf

 
Just a general caution to all that this thread is to stay focused on the content of the article & subsequent posts.  No attempt will be made to take frivolous shots at the author.  Failure to heed will result in your post being deleted and possible further action.
 
Why such a superficial comparison between Turkey and Canada.  They author is keen to launch an ad hominem attack on the "Colonol Blimps", but his logic is sorely lacking.

Has Mr Taylor bothered to compare things like:
- The standard of living in Canada (I could make my money go pretty far in Turkey)
- The cost of training and paying the salary of a professional soldier in the West
- The amount of skill training that goes into producing leadership of the caliber of that in the CF (staff college, PSE, etc, etc)

I could go on and on, but it isn't worth it.  A Canada-Turkey comparison is a red herring and is a reflection of poor "defence analyst" skills; look to defence spending in Britain, Australia or the United States if you want to make a comparison.
 
Never mind Infanteer already hit the high notes - its not worth commenting further.

 
meh.
Positively ludicrous. Weak attempt, poor follow-through, but I can dance to it. I give it a nine, Dick. ::)
 
Another point that must be considered; they Turkish military is subsidized annually by the US government.   I couldn't find detailed figures because I wasn't interested in finding the hard figures, but needless to say the rough numbers seem to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars - we all remember the public debate on this money when Turkey decided not to aid the US-led invasion of Iraq.  Just google it - the info about the money is there.  I'm willing to bet that all this fancy equipment that the Turkish military has that Mr Taylor is bragging up (ie: F-16s) is purchased through defence subsidies.

My, if only Canada could be bankrolled by G8 countries as well - oh wait, we are one.

The cost of deploying soldiers abroad was going to be my next point of interest (I was generously compensated during my time overseas), but it is obvious that Mr Taylor's shoddy comparison doesn't rate the attention....

 
O'Leary's paper brought up some questions, some of which were answered here  http://wps.cfc.forces.gc.ca/papers/nssc/nssc6/colwell.htm
but I still have some more questions.

1) What is the best or most efficient way to increase the Out of area deployability of the CF? Is it through increased Reservists as they cost less, or is it through longer careers of the Regular forces we recruit and retain?

According to the CFC paper, our 2001/2002 expenditures on personnel compensation amounted to 53% of the total CF budget. With the predicted rise  in Urban populations and the increased competition for labour, does this not necessitate a rethink of the total numbers of Reservists authorized to be recruited?  This is given the understanding that the CF must compete for personnel and must be accessible to the population they are trying to recruit and retain.

Colwell's paper concedes there are no great numbers of additional reservists projected to be added, why is this the case? Is there some institutional resent of additional numbers of Reserve personnel or is there no economic case for greater numbers of said reserve personnel? I understand there are certain losses  by having greater Reserve numbers (disparity of training, career length, etc.) but if those shortfalls were overcome through modern business practices, would this not serve as the most effective way to increase and sustain greater numbers for out of area deployability.

Since the CF is an all volunteer force do our numbers truly match up to the other volunteer forces in terms of  percentage levels? If this is not the case, then what is being done to ameliorate said issue?

any answers appreciated...
 
A more apt comparison for "bang for buck" would be to compare us with Australia...
 
RangerRay said:
A more apt comparison for "bang for buck" would be to compare us with Australia...
It seems the experts making that comparison get different results than Mr Taylor:
Military needs more personnel, better gear, two experts say
Calgary Herald; CanWest News Service
Published: Friday, December 02, 2005


CALGARY - Canada's military reserves need a substantial injection of manpower and modern equipment to thrive, say two authors of a major study.

Some aspects, particularly pay and relations with the regular forces, have improved for the 25,000-member reserves in the 10 years since Jack Granatstein, retired lieutenant-general Charles Belzile and the late chief justice Brian Dickson tabled their report.

"But plenty of problems remain," said Granatstein, a military historian and author. "There's still not enough money, too few personnel and too much obsolete equipment."

Granatstein noted the public's opinion of the military has improved since the 1995 report.

"Our report came out right after the Somalia affair. Today, we collectively recognize the value of a military in a dangerous world."

Belzile, who had a 35-year military career, said some progress has been made in recruiting talented young people to the reserves.

"But we can still do a hell of a lot better. I'd like to see us up to a strength of 30,000 or 35,000 reserves, but that would take time. And there's a great shortage of instructors to train these people."

Both men say federal job protection legislation, in which a reservist would know his job back home was secure if he were deployed to Afghanistan for nine months, would help make reserve service more attractive.

Granatstein said Canada should emulate Australia: "They have two-thirds of our population and spend more on their military.

"The Australians take it seriously; they think they matter in the world."
Any good comparison needs to look at quality in addition to quantity for funds spent.
 
MCG said:
It seems the experts making that comparison get different results:Any good comparison needs to look at quality in addition to quantity for funds spent.

I meant to imply that the Aussies seem to have a more robust and modern force than ours despite being a smaller population.  :)
 
I wouldn't say more robust and modern, but they definately seem to have a better picture of priorities (ampibs, M1, etc, etc) and more "bang for the buck".
 
Any discussion of the Turkish defence system which ignores US aid is, at best, incomplete.  Turkey is the 3rd largest recipient of US military aid, after Israel and Egypt.

Since the mid '90s the US has been providing Turkey with about $1 billion per year in hardware under FMS*, in addition the US has given Turkey billions worth of "Excess Defense Articles"** including several frigates, over 800 tanks, 40 F-15 Eagles and 80 AH-1 attack helicopters.  Can anyone imagine what that would have cost to procure in Canada, under our totally commercial defence procurement arrangements with US suppliers?

As The Ruxted Group pointed out at  http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/36907.0.html

"¢ It doesn't matter, not even a tiny bit, what others spend or how they spend it: other countries do not do Canadians' bidding under Canada's rules; and

"¢ Things (and people) cost what they cost here and now.

Steve Staples was in error when he made that rather sophomoric comparison, Scott Taylor compounded the error.  Two wrongs, etc.

There are problems with establishing and maintaining adequate defence capabilities which go beyond budgets; they are unaddressed by Messers Staples and Taylor.  Becoming more like Turkey is not, in my Colonel Blimpish view, the answer to any of them.  Considering how e.g. Australia, Britain and The Netherlands develop defence policies, procure equipment and manage their resources is a useful exercise.

Scott Taylor is having a bit of fun with numbers - great for entertaining the children, even for fooling some of the adults some of the time - but hardly a reasonable contribution to the debate re: what do Canadians want and require their armed forces to do and, how much will that cost?

----------
* FMS allows, essentially, a 'grant' to buy new, top-line US equipment - http://www.dsca.osd.mil/publications.htm
** The US Congress has directed the DoD to give away serviceable equipment which is deemed excess - see http://www.dsca.mil/programs/eda/edamain.htm

 
3rd Chicken said:
Canada has a paper strength of 57,000 regular service personnel, with a reserve force hovering around 14,000. So we could mobilize 71,000 troops in a time of crisis.

Paper strength works well on the battlefield.  I'm sure the amount of Reg Force personnel dagging red would go into the double digits and the Reserves can't come out because finals are coming up.  71,000?  I doubt it.
 
I fully believe my 7 year old son comprehends the defense issues of this country better than Mr. Taylor for the simple fact my son would never compare the CF and Canada to the Turkish Military and Turkey.  Now my Economics classes and Cost Accounting classes were several years ago, however I still know that you cannot attempt to shoehorn numbers into apple and orange comparisons, and expect to retain any credibility.  To further exemplify the disparity of a Canadian to Turkish comparison, I used the CIA World Fact Book http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ for both countries to give an equal and fair comparison (apples to apples):

                                      Turkey                                              Canada
Population                    69,660,559 (July 2005 est.)          32,805,041 (July 2005 est.)
GDP                          $508.7 billion (2004 est.)              $1.023 trillion (2004 est.)
GDP/Capita                  $7,400 (2004 est.)                      $31,500 (2004 est.)
Budget Revenues        $78.53 billion                              $151 billion
Budget Expenditure      $110.9 billion                              $144 billion
Military Expenditure      $12.155 billion (2003)                  $9,801.7 million (2003)
As part of GDP              5.3% (2003)                              1.1% (2003)


Adding in the issues that Mr Campbell has previously pointed out about the (well known) US Aid to Turkey and you have a comparison akin to Champagne and Motor Oil -- they both may be liquids but...
 
Apologies for the chart alignment - I have it nicely done in both MS Word and Excel, but cannot comprehend the settings within the board code to allow me to properly align it.
 
I think the real problem is that a lot of money is getting spent on administrative details associated with procurements, maintenance and operations, training, etc. and not on the kit and personnel itself. By way of example, consider the huge length of time it typically takes to actually deliver hardware to the troops. It's impossible to avoid noticing the reams and reams of documentation that gets created along the way, particularly in the contract definition process.

Moreover, the defence department seems to spend inordinate resources on trying to make the CF look and feel like a touchy-feely peacekeeping-cum-humanitarian-aid-helpful-boy-scout type of organization, at the expense of what really matters: the sharp end. That means that the focus, financially and otherwise, is diverted from making the military function as the thing it should be, and towards social-engineering concerns.

I favour the idea of off the shelf procurement for major articles wherever feasible. At least until the CF procurement and supply process is fixed, and until we can change the mindset of politicians, NDHQ staff and Canadian citizens in such a way that they recognize that the old regime of peacekeeping and constabulary roles for the CF is dead, dead, dead, and that a new geopolitical and strategic realm exists.

The recent milCOTS programme is a case in point. Given an ideal world, the Army Reserves should have gotten proper tactical and utility vehicles to replace their clapped-out fleets of 3/4-ton trucks and Iltis jeeps. But because there was no specific replacement available in the supply chain, something had to be done to quickly address the gap. Enter the militarized Chevy Silverado 5/4 ton trucks, which give the Reserves an acceptable (just not tactically acceptable) degree of mobility for the time being for most of the tasks they are likely to carry out in peacetime. I'm not suggesting that the milCOTS truck is good, just the lesser of two evils.

As for Turkey, it does better where men and materiel are concerned mostly because of US and EU subsidies. Those subsidies exist because keeping Turkey in the NATO fold is strategically vital, given its geographic location. Canada, with its superior GDP, should easily be capable of more, but because of the US 'nuclear umbrella' has chosen not to lift a finger unless absolutely necessary.





 
Eland - many of the warmer fuzzier programs are not DND specifically generated.  They are DND attempts to keep the CF within Canadian Public Service guidelines.  Perhaps a better question is, IF the CF needs these programs, then does need to squander funds and other scarce resource in making their own programs but simply use existing Cdn Govt ones.  Odds are IF you have to  REALLY have to tailor one of those programs to fit the CF -- it is not a program that the CF needs.
 
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