When is using first names appropriate?

[Jarnhamar]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/29437.0.html

When is it appropriate to use first names (if ever) on duty?
Working with the reg force i found that within the sections guys used first names more often than not. Even our section commander told us to use his first name unless the Platoon WO or commander was around, then it was rank.  Near anyone outside the platoon it would be rank and last name.

I found this really pulled the section together, which was half reserves and half regs. We were all buddy buddy with each other, including the section commander who had us over to his place a few times for drinks. Really brought the guys together as a team.
When he gave an order though, there was no bullshitting around. The loyalty and respect this section commander had from the troops was unquestioning.

I find you don't see this too often in the reserves. First names between soldiers and especially section commanders.  I've seen some reservists go a little overboard at times too with insisting their rank be used every time you speak with them, as in every sentence practically. That gets a little tedious.

Anyhow, what difference in rank is it un/appropriate to use someones first name?  I don't see a problem with troops/section commanders using first names as long as it's understood orders are still orders.  What about a corporal and warrant officer?

I've seen officers call SNCOs by their first names (or even senior to junior officers) but it always seems to be one sided with the SNCO using the officers rank or sir.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Im going to disagree with a few things ghost, that you said about reserves

I actually have more experience with american reservists than I do canadian regulars, so I cant really comment on the regforce side of cohesion , but in my unit,about 75% of my platoon are drinking buddies.

Saturday as a matter of fact about 14 of us were at a bar.I have more good friends in the reserves than I do civi side as a matter of fact.

although, this is just my unit, i know in a couple others its not like this at all.I suppose it varies from place to place within the entire CF... and probobly every military.

It depends on the person/people upon whether its appropriate or not to call them by their first name..... I would say a good clue is when they tell you to "call me xxxx" =p

 

[tomahawk6]

In my experience juniors never address senior's by first name. Senior's to junior's vary by either first name , rank and last name or just last name. I address my senior subordinates by first name. Others by rank and last name. Non-NCO's I address by last name. NCO's always by rank and last name. But I know senior officers who address most of their officer's by their first name. I think its important to keep a certain distance.

 

[jmackenzie_15]

Well, I dont mean on the recruit level.Untill the new guys have put their time in, they should be kept a distance.
respect is earned.

 

[goshofmosh]

I think it completly depends on you relationship with the person cause i'm a pivate and there ae some SNCO I call by first and other by last and othes by ank it jsut depends on how well i've gotten to know the people. I know some people out of no where just started calling me by my first name as we started to hang out more.; I guess my point is it all depends on the person

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

My various rules of thumb are thus:

I always call officers senior to me "sir" unless we are close friends, then its first names - but in private only.  I still would use sir in public.

In the Canadian Army, junior officers (Lieutenants and Captains) use first names amongst themselves and, by tradition, are typically called by their first names by senior officers (Majors and higher).

For non-commissioned members (including Sr NCOs), an officer should always use rank and last name when addressing someone.  A soldier has earned his/her rank and deserves to be addressed by it properly.  I would never call an NCM by their first name, although there is one exception.  There are occasions when you will have old friends who may be NCMs and you are not.  Then, the same level of discretion applies as I noted above:  in private only.

I've seen tank/Coyote crews where first names are used inside the vehicle, but its never been something I've done.

Again, this is the way I do business... I know the air force and some "technical" trades feel differently!!

Cheers,

TR

 

[Sig_Des]

Use of first name varies. When I finished BMQ/SQ, our section 2ic took a couple of us aside, to say goodbye, and say from now on it was "Mike". Of course if anyone else is around, it would be MCpl, but just among troops...

Generally, it's always appropriate to use rank, but if an NCO says, hey call me so and so, first name is fine.

 

[George Wallace]

There is a time and place for everything.  In an Armoured Vehicle crew or Aircrew, there is quite often a 'First Name' basis.  In Public, in uniform, it should be more formal and Ranks used.  In the Mess, it can become very informal......"Hey Butt Fu**** come buy a round!"  I have had several CO's call me by my first name, even in front of others, but that was their style.  Others, while on Parade, are more formal and use Rank and Last Name.  Downtown, in Civies, "Sir" will usually suffice.  It is usually not very proper to call any superior, in the Military or not, by their first name.  Would you call a Judge in the courtroom by their first name, if you knew them?  There is a definite 'Etiquette' to be followed.

 

[Zoomie]

Aircrew are pretty much always on a first name basis.  We never address each other as Captain So-and-So or Sgt Bloggins - it's either first names or aircrew position (ie. Nav, Pilot, Co, SAR tech, FE, etc) - it makes for an easier time on the ICS and solidifies crew cohesion.  This is usually only for Captains and below though - flying with Majors can be a real pain.

 

[Infanteer]

Aircrew are pretty much always on a first name basis.   We never address each other as Captain So-and-So or Sgt Bloggins - it's either first names or aircrew position (ie. Nav, Pilot, Co, SAR tech, FE, etc) - it makes for an easier time on the ICS and solidifies crew cohesion.   This is usually only for Captains and below though - flying with Majors can be a real pain.

I thought everyone was "Bob" in the Air Force....

Anyways, I had this somewhere else, but I put it here as it was relevent to the topic.

I once watched a LtCol correct a Major infront of his company by calling him by his first name "Now X, actually...."

I felt bad for the OC being treated like that (this is the Army, not the Air Force  ); he'd earned the rank of Major and it would be fitting (professionally) for other soldiers to give him that, regardless of whether they are a Private or the CO - especially when the guy is in front of his entire company.   To this day I'm still unsure of what the guy was trying to prove by calling his subordinates by their first name infront of the troops....

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

I lived by a simple rule, if higher-ups were around, then it was by the book, and if someone was not smart enough to follow THAT rule then it was always "by the book".
...to me it was just a matter of "professional courtesy". Even in my current profession I still use that theory for my shift I/C when either subordinates[inmates] or superiors[superindentants/etc] are around.
Again just "professional courtesy".


http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/29383.0.html

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I once watched a LtCol correct a Major infront of his company by calling him by his first name "Now X, actually...."

I felt bad for the OC being treated like that (this is the Army, not the Air Force   ); he'd earned the rank of Major and it would be fitting (professionally) for other soldiers to give him that, regardless of whether they are a Private or the CO - especially when the guy is in front of his entire company.   To this day I'm still unsure of what the guy was trying to prove by calling his subordinates by their first name infront of the troops....

The OC probably wouldn't have thought anything of it, so I wouldn't worry.  As I said earlier, amongst officers first names are typically used by seniors when addressing more junior officers...  In front of the company...well - I wouldn't correct anyone in front of their soldiers (safety issues aside), regardless of rank.

 

[bossi]

It's true that almost everybody has earned their rank, and therefore deserve to be addressed by their rank and surname.  We also know that when you don't know somebody's surname, you address them solely by their rank (and not "Hey, You!") - at the other end of the spectrum, the use of a subordinates' first name demonstrates that the superior actually knows the subordinate well enough to know their first name ... (i.e. an extension of "know, and promote the well-being of your troops" ...).

As several have pointed out previouly, there's a time and place for everything ... and knowing the right time and place is essential.  Personally, I've used first names for unit cohesion in special circumstances, to emphasize that I value a subordinates opinion, and to encourage them to offer it.  Reverting to the use of ranks can also serve as a warning that a conversation has the potential to become "one-way", or simply as a warning that outsiders are approaching.

The use of first names in circumstances can also signify "a rite of passage" - In my Officers' Handbook, permission must be granted by a Captain before a Lieutenant may address him by his first name - to do otherwise is presumptuous.

On rare occasions, when I've know somebody for their entire career (i.e. I enrolled them, or we were once peers ... but sadly their rank has outstripped mine ...) I've used the first name of a senior rank to get their attention, and as an overt reminder that they're not talking to some "wet behind the ears" junior ... however, this has only been on rare occasions.

Stirling tenets were:
- A classless society
- A sense of humility
- The relentless pursuit of excellence
- A sense of humour

Thus, at times or under special circumstances, I believe the judicious use of first names can be appropriate.

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

On rare occasions, when I've know somebody for their entire career (i.e. I enrolled them, or we were once peers ... but sadly their rank has outstripped mine ...) I've used the first name of a senior rank to get their attention, and as an overt reminder that they're not talking to some "wet behind the ears" junior ... however, this has only been on rare occasions.

An overt reminder, hmmm?  You just might get an "overt reminder" back if you try that with the wrong "senior"! 

TR

 

[bossi]

An overt reminder, hmmm?   You just might get an "overt reminder" back if you try that with the wrong "senior"!

Yes, As I pointed out, it's important to know when and where it's appropriate ...
(and, so far so good ... almost 28 years without getting "an overt reminder back" ...) 

 

[Infanteer]

The OC probably wouldn't have thought anything of it, so I wouldn't worry.   As I said earlier, amongst officers first names are typically used by seniors when addressing more junior officers...   In front of the company...well - I wouldn't correct anyone in front of their soldiers (safety issues aside), regardless of rank.

Oh, ok.  I don't even think it was really a correction, I think the OC asked for a clarificiation - but it still sounded silly to me.  I guess I am just a stickler or something....

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Quote,
I guess I am just a stickler or something.....................OUCH, .... sorry,had to slap my "bad" hand >

 

[combat_medic]

I think all of this very much depends on the relationship, but whatever the usage of names, it should go both ways. Example: I once had an officer (Lt-Capt type) come up to me and address me by my first name, so I responded to him with his first name. He seemed pretty shocked by it, but I think he got the point. If you can call me by mine, I can call you by yours. Typically I only do it for close friends, and only those within 1 rank +/- of myself. Even if I'm close friends with the upper echelons, I certainly wouldn't address them by anything other than rank in public.

I also think that it shows a great deal of respect to always address your subbordinates by rank. Even the privates, once they're no longer recruits, have earned their rank, so it seems only fair to use it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I see what you mean by someone earning their rank.

I guess it depends how you look at it. When i put enough time in my section and the guys started calling me by my first name I considered it a sign of 'being in'.  Same goes for a platoon warrant calling me by my first name. I'd never use theirs but them addressing me like that I consider almost a sign of respect.

 

[Infanteer]

Actually, we had "call signs" in our Platoon.  Everyone had to have one.