What Should the Army's Role, Capabilities & Structure Be?

[Old Army guy]

Perhaps you have misunderstood me Slim, At the start of Yugo conflict, while we were at the airport. Every Soldier on the ground knew what the objective was,they knew what thier job was. We were sent there to "peacekeep",while the war continued. That was a political decision,not DND‘s.
And to do our jobs somedays that required going into combat with the serbs or croat‘s "to keep your section alive" "or maybe to keep the peace" So while we were there there was no difference for us.peacekeeping and war were one in the same.

Is was not until later that the region had stabilized enough to keep the peace. Enough that you could clearly see a difference in the roles.

 

[Slim]

I think we‘re going to have to agree to disagree on this particular subject. I understand what you‘re saying in that you were engaged by the enemy and had to return fire and fight offensively, I just don‘t don‘t think that Canada on the whole was at war.
However let me remind you that the origional subject was " whether Canadian troops should only do peackeeping". I believe it was proposed that the Cdn Forces don‘t need to train for war as they do just fine at peacekeeping.
I disagree with that as well.
Slim

 

[311]

If someone told me I wasn‘t training for war, and that I would just end up as a peacekeeper, I probily wouldn‘t be in the army. What would be the point to all the hard training we do if we were just going to be peacekeepers. As Old Army Guy told us, peacekeeping was the same as being in a war. Thats why we should train to kill, not to keep the peace.

 

[Spr.Earl]

Originally posted by RECON-MAN:
[qb] We seemed to hit a raw nerve on this topic. Under THE lav-III forum.I pose this question to you‘s
What would you like our forces including (navy& airforce) to have? [/qb]

#1- Get rid of the P.C.crap!!
#2- Get back to basic‘s again!!
#3- Never mind the Gucci Kit give us the Tool‘s to do our job!

I‘ll stop as I‘m getting wound up!!

 

[Slim]

Peacekeeping is a fine thing and, done CORRECTLY, is quite effective ( that is something of a supposition as the U.N. has not been very effective since the Korean war.)BUT, in order for troops to be able to Peacekeep they have to be trained to fight. Period. Because when the belligerents decide to ignore the peacekeepers (as in Yugo) then the peacekeepers have to be able to step up and demonstraite that non-compliance will not get them any place!
Soldiers must, first and formost, be warfighters!

 

[Jarnhamar]

I thi9nk to relieve stress we should have manditory yoga and bongo playing classes and trips for our famlies down to flordia in the winter all on the tax payers expense.
Maybe when we retire we can throw outselves lavish parades
Where‘ve we seen that before

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Whats the old quote:
"Those who want peace must prepare for war" or something along those lines.

 

[dbrock]

The Canadian Government needs to quite attempting to use the Canadian Forces as a political tool on the world scene. Get back to the basics

1. Aid to the civil power.
2. Back up our allies in NATO and NORAD.
3. Protect Canada‘s northern sovereignty.

Get rid of the official DND underwear (I bought my own, so can the new generation of Canadian troopers)and other useless kit that the idiots thinking this stuff up don‘t have to hump in the bush ot load into a Rad van. :soldier:

 

[L/MCpl_Argyll_ Kurrgan]

But the new underwear is CRACK! So much support for Carl and the Boyz. Best pair of underwear ever. Doesn‘t rip when you give someone a wedgey either.

 

[dbrock]

HAHAHAHA!

I wear that same type myself in civvie life but I never thought that the military could come up with gucci gitch for our troops. Bet it cuts back on the chaffing during a forced march
:soldier:

 

[Lost_Warrior]

Further, the example you gave is that while there was a limited number of Canadian troops in the city, they WERE NOT AT WAR! They were trying to slip between two opposing armies that were. the most that they got was harrassing fire. Not full frontal assaults.

That‘s a rather un-informed opinion. The battle of Medak Pocket was more than just harrassing fire. It was the CF up against Croatian heavy machine guns, armor and artilery....

http://www.balkanpeace.org/wcs/wct/wctu/wctc003.shtml

 

[Mountie]

Here is a new force structure for 2020 I have worked on.  Just interested in any comments. (See my next post with details on my proposed Canadian Medium Brigade Group.)

1 Canadian Joint Task Force:
1 CJTF Headquarters (Created by disbanding all Area Headquarters and the CF JOG)
  - Command Support Group (Signal Sqd, MI Co., MP Co. & Admin Co.)
1 CMBG - Edmonton
2 CMBG - Petawawa
4 Air Expeditionary Wing - Cold Lake (2 Sqds of 18 CF-18 Hornets, one in support of each CMBG, eventually CF-18 Super Hornets or CF-35 JSFs)
1 General Support Group (Reg/Res) (general support battalion, engineer support squadron, signal troop, ResFor light air defence battery, Total Force 100-bed field hospital)

2 Canadian Joint Task Force:
2 CJTF Headquarters (Same as 1 CJTF)
4 CMBG - Gagetown (new bde promised by Paul Martin - QOR of C, 8th CH (PL), 4 RCHA, etc)
5 CMBG - Valcartier
2 General Support Group (Reg/Res)

Combat Training Centre (Moved to Shilo to allow 4 CMBG to use Gagetown, 1 RCHA & 2 PPCLI moved to Edmonton)

8 Transport Wing - Trenton
  - 4 Transport Squadrons (8 CC-130J Hercules each)
  - 1 Strategic Transport Squadron (4 CC-150 Polaris MRTT)

Search & Rescue Wing
  - 5 SAR Squadrons spread across country (2 CC-27J Spartans & 3 CH-149 Cormorants each)

Maritime Command - Pacific & Atlantic Fleets each:
2 Maritime Task Groups each with:
  - 1 Halifiax-class Air Defence & Command Frigate
  - 3 Halifax-class Patrol Frigates
  - 1 Halifax-class frigade-based Support Vessel (similar to RNZN's HMNZS Endeavour) instead of new Joint Support Ships.
1 Coastal Defence Squadron
  - 6 MCDVs
1 Fast Sealift Squadron
  - 2 Medium-size Fast Sealift Vessel (funded by selling off the Victoria-class submarines)
1 Maritime Air Wing
  - 2 Maritime Helicopter Squadrons (6 CH-148 Cyclones each, borrow CH-60 Sea Hawks until CH-148s arrive)
  - 1 Maritime Patrol Squadron (4 CU-163 Altair Maritime UAV or CP-295 Persuaders, still undecided if role can be performed by UAVs)

 

[Mountie]

Follow-up to my proposed Force Structure 2020 found in "Current Affairs"   What do you think of this idea for a new Canadian Medium Brigade Group?

Just to clarify a few pieces of equipment.   The LAV-III Medium Infantry Combat Vehicle (MICV) is a LAV-III with an Improved Protected Weapons Station mounting an M2 .50-cal HMG or a Mk.19 40mm AGL not the manned Delco 25mm turret.   The new LAV-III MICV is basically the US Army Stryker.   It would be cheaper to procure, maintain and operate than the present LAV-III APC and carries more dismounts.   (See www.sfu.ca/casr.com for more on this idea).   If it is good enough for the US Army, surely it is good enough for the Canadian Army.   Then I have created a new class of vehicle which I called the Light Armoured Support Vehicle.   It is basically my version of the UK Army's Future Command & Liaison Vehicle.   This is a MOWAG Eagle IV armoured car mounting a IPWS (www.mowag.com).   Many LAV-III support variants such as the RRB, FEV, MMEV, as well as the infantry's Coyotes and the engineer's Mambas can be replaced by the much cheaper Eagle IV.   The HLVWs and MLVWs have been replaced with the 5-tonne and 2.5-tonne versions of the US FMTV, respectively.   The VHLVW is the 11-tonne PLS version of the FMTV.   The LSVW has been replaced with the 1.25-tonne version of the G-Wagon.   The final stage would be to replace the Coyote and Bisons of the cavalry regiments with LAV-IIIs.   The LAV-III Armoured Reconnaissance Vehicle (Coyote II) is a LAV-III with the two-man Delco 25mm turret.

The idea is to reduce all the vehicle fleets to just four basic fleets, G-Wagon (LUVW & LSVW), FMTV (MLVW, HLVW, VHLVW and artillery systems), LASV and LAV-III.   This would significantly reduce maintenance and logistics costs and would pay for itself within a few years.   In addition to selling off the old vehicles and equipment there would be additional money to purchase some of the new vehicles
.  
Briagade Headquarters (74 troops)
- Uses ISO containerized command vans carried on HLVW PLSs.   This allows for quick displacement and allows staff to continue operating while moving to a new location.   This eliminates the need for an alternate CP.   Brigade Headquarters are more often in the static role during peace support operations anyways (ie, Bosnia, Afghanistan).

Command Support Squadron (178 troops)
- a large signal troop
- an electronic warfare troop using a EW version of the LAV-III.
- a military intelligence troop
- a military police platoon
- an administration troop for support

3 x Medium Infantry Battalions (753 troops) [Medium infantry is basically light infantry in armoured vehicles.   They could operate as traditional light infantry when required]
-Battalion Headquarters (3 LAV-III Command Vehicles [TAC CP, Ops Section & Intel Section]+ RMP & Chaplain in LUVWs)
-Headquarters Company
  - Co. HQ
  - Regimental Orderly Room
  - Signal Section (LAV-III CV, 2 x LASV RRBs and a LCIS & Stores Det with LSVW Cargo & MRT, RSO rank reduced to Lieut)
  - Logistics Platoon (stores section, food service section, 4 small company tranport sections each with 4 HLVW and 2 HLVW FAR)
  - Maintenance Platoon (repair parts supply det., recovery section, LAV repair section, light vehicle repair section, ancillary repair section)
  - Unit Medical Station (enlarged by converting all drivers and unit litter barrers to Med As, and by adding a Physicians Assistant)
  - Close Reconnaissance Platoon (8 LASV Reconnaissance Vehicles with IPWS, Plt HQ and 3 sections, each vehicle 2-man crew & 2 dismounts)
  - Mortar Platoon** (three sections of 2 LAV-III 81mm or 120mm Mortar Fire Support Vehicles)
     ***eliminated if the close support artillery batteries are equipped with the 120mm Armoured Mortar System rather than the MAVS (see artillery regiment for more details)
-3 Combined Arms Infantry Companies
  -Co. HQ (command section (2 LAV-III CVs), stores section (4-MLVWs), maintenance section (LAV-III MRV & 2-LSVW MRTs) and medical section (LAV-III Ambulance and platoon Med As)
  -3 Rifle Platoons
     - Platoon HQ (Plt Cdr, Plt WO, signaller, two 2-man C6 GPMG teams, vehicle driver & gunner, and a LAV NCO that commands the 4 LAVs when the platoon dismounts, all with C8A1s)
     - 3 Sections (2 crew with C8A1s, 8 dismounts with 2 C9A1s and 2 C7A2s with 40mm grenade launchers, the rest with C7A2s, plus a Javelin anti-tank missile launcher and a Carl Gustav for each section)
  - Fire Support Platoon (2 LAV-III MGS, 2 LAV-III TUA, 2 LAV-III DFSV with remote 25mm cannon carrying Plt Cdr, Plt WO, two 60mm mortar teams and a 3-man sniper team)

Cavalry Regiment (377 troops)
-Regimental Headquarters (same as infantry battalion)
-Headquarters Squadron (same as infantry battalion, minus mortar and recce platoons, and smaller support troops to reflect the smaller size of the regiment)
-Nuclear, Biological & Chemical Reconnaissance Troop (3 LAV-III NBC Recce vehicles)
-2 Medium Reconnaissance Squadrons
  - Sqd HQ (same as infantry company but LAV-III CVs have the original 25mm Delco turret)
  - 3 Recce Troops (6 LAV-III Coyote II ARVs)
  - Anti-Armour Section (2 LAV-III TUA)

Combined Artillery Regiment (569 troops)
-Regimental Headquarters (similar to infantry battalion but with a Fire Direction Centre and a detached Bridage FSCC all using HLVW ISO Command Vans for rapid displacement)
-Headquarters & Services Battery
  - Bty. HQ
  - Regimental Orderly Room
  - Signal Section (same as infantry)
  - Service Troop (stores, transport & maintenance sections)
  - Unit Medical Station
  - Target Acquisition Troop (2 US FireFinder Radars, a survey team & a meteorological section)
- 3 Close Support Artillery Batteries, each supporting an infantry battalion
  - Bty. HQ (TAC CP/Battle Group FSCC in LAV-III CV, command section and recce det with a LASV)
  - 3 Fire Effects Detachments each with a LASV Fire Effects Vehicle and each supporting an infantry company
  - Support Troop (stores, maintenance, medical, food service & ammunition sections)
  - Firing Troop (CP and 6 gun detachments, either 105mm Mobile Artillery Vehicle System mounted on HLVW or 120mm Armoured Mortar System mounted on LAV-III, both would tow a trailer with additional ammo)
- General Support Battery, supports the cavalry regiment and provides counter-battery and deep strike capability
  - all the same as close support battery except only 2 Fire Effects Detachments, one per cavalry squadron and firing troop has 4 HIMARS detachments in place of 6 gun detachments
- Low-Level Air Defence Battery
  - Bty. HQ
  - Maintenance Section
  - 6 Air Defence Sections (HQ with LASV Command Vehicle and 4 LASV Multi-Mission Effects Vehicle with pedestal-mounted Starstreak missiles.   New version of the Starstreak is a dual missile similar to the much heavier ADATS.   6 missiles are mounted on the pedestal mount on the back of a LUVW or LASV rather than the heavy ADATS that would require a LAV-III and would be very top heavy and unsafe.)

Combat Engineer Squadron (246 troops)
-Sqd. HQ
-Service Troop (orderly room, stores, transport, maintenance and medical sections)
-3 Field Engineer Troops (3 LASVs for Troop Commander, Troop WO and Recce Det, MLVW for stores and 4 Engineer sections each with a LAV-III ESV [US Stryker variant].   Engineer section is organized and equipped the same as an infantry section.)
-Engineer Support Troop (3 mobility support sections each with a HLVW Dump Truck, an assault bridge carried on a HLVW and 4 Multi-Purpose Engineering Vehicles (MPEV); a heavy equipment troop with a road grader, a heavy crane, 2 HLVW tractor-trailers to carry them, a track excavator, 3 HLVW Dump Trucks and 3 MPEVs; and a water section with 2 ROWPUs.)

Brigade Service Battalion (561 troops)
-Bn HQ
-Administration Company
-Transport Company (combat supplies platoon, 3 transport platoons each with 30 VHLVWs and a maintenance section)
-Maintenance Company (repair parts supply platoon, recovery platoon, heavy mobile repair platoon, medium mobile repair platoon and a maintenance support platoon)
-Supply & Services Company (general & technical supply platoon, laundry & bath platoon, decontamination platoon and ResFor finance and postal platoons if needed)

Field Ambulance (189 troops) [will function as a Role 3 facility for low- to mid-intensity peace support operations with little augmentation]
-HQ (same as present)
-Service Platoon (stores, transport, maintenance & food service sections)
-Preventative Medicine Section
-2 Medical Platoons configured as a 40 bed mini-hospital similar to the Royal Marine Brigade's Logistics Regiment's Medical Squadron
  - HQ (Emergecny Medical Officer & Operations Officer)
  - Stabilization Section (EMO, Physican's Assistant and 8 Med As) with ISO Containerized Facilities
  - Surgical Section (General Surgeon, Orthapedica Surgeon, Anasthetist, OR Nurse & 2 OR Techs) with ISO Containerized Facilities
  - Ward Section (2 Nursing Officers, ICU Nursing Officer & 7 Med As) with ISO Containerized Facilities
  - Clinical Support Section (2 Lab Techs & 2 X-Ray Techs with mobile lab and x-ray equipment in MLVW Vans)
  - Dental Section (Dental Officer & 2 Dental Techs with mobile clinic in an MLVW Van)
-2 Ambulance Platoons (HQ and 2 sections of 6 LSVW Ambulances each, total of 24 LSVW Ambulances)

Tactical Aviation Squadron (CH-146 Griffon would ideally be replaced by US Army UH-60L Black Hawk versions, which I will call CH-170 Hawk)
-Command Section (2 CH-170 Hawk Command & Control variants)
-4 Close Support Flights each supporting an infantry battalion/cavalry regiment (2 CH-170 Battle Hawk attack variant & 2 CH-170 Hawk)
-Medical Evacuation/Combat Search & Rescue Flight (4 CH-170 Medivac/CSAR variants)
-Tactical Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Flight (6 CU-161 Sperwer TUAVs)

 

[Inch]

I just have a question about the "CH170 Hawk", so other than the alpha numeric identifier, how would you differentiate between a CH 170 Hawk and a CT 155 Hawk? We don't tend to name aircraft the same, especially different airframes. Also, only 2 troop lifters per Battalion? Air mobility would be a nightmare. You need pretty much an entire Sqn to move a battalion. I'm not sure the exact breakdown for a TacHel Sqn since I'm MH, but it's more than 4 helos per flight and having half your fleet as attack helos is a few too many.

Cheers

 

[George Wallace]

Mountie

Is it just me or do your links to simon fraser Univ and Mowag not work?

GW

 

[Mountie]

RE: Hawk

You're right.  You would have to rename it.  I just shortened Black Hawk to Hawk.  I forgot about the CT-155.  I guess you would have to rename it.  Just like the H-92 Super Hawk became the Cyclone. 

They should be www.mowag.ch and www.sfu.ca/casr/101.htm  Sorry about that.

 

[Mountie]

RE: Troop Lift

A medium infantry battalion would not need troop lift.  The two utility helicopters are just for basic combat service support and battle taxi duties.  On the odd occasion that the battalion would actually be used as a light infantry battalion you would have to pool the resources of the four tactical aviation squadrons or rely on Allied assets.  Peace support operations have been traditionally mounted operations.  3 PPCLI in Afghanistan was one of the few exceptions.  And we still didn't have the helicopters to support them.  US Army aviation assets were employed.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

There are a number of posters here (whom I should point out have much much more experience than I do) who are very much into confining our roles to those we've had previously.

I on the other hand am much more "objective-focused" and have in the past argued (much less eloquently than PPCLI) that we need to start from scratch with "what is it we want to do?"

My big picture objective:   "Create the best ground forces we can, then realign all our naval/air assets to have the ability to unilaterally deploy then support said ground forces anywhere in the world."

In short, redesign the entire CF to be Ground Forces-focused, and be willing to sacrifice those assets, roles (NATO fleet refueling) that do not fit this new objective.

Bottom Line Question:   What is your big picture objective, how did you come to that conclusion, and how would it affect procurement, reorganization plans over the coming years?

Cheers,



Matthew.  

 

[DJL]

My big picture objective:  "Create the best ground forces we can, then realign all our naval/air assets to have the ability to unilaterally deploy then support said ground forces anywhere in the world."

In short, redesign the entire CF to be Ground Forces-focused, and be willing to sacrifice those assets, roles (NATO fleet refueling) that do not fit this new objective.

Do you understand what contradiction means?

Unilaterally deploy naval assests..........get rid of AORs......  ???

 

[Zoomie]

Interesting premise - if not a little short-sighted.  A military cannot just exist to support the crunchies on the ground.  Naval and air assets are just as involved in necessary day-to-day operations which do not have anything to do with army.  The "raison d'etre" for the CF is primarily the defense of Canada.  I would say that the Navy and the Air Force are the only arms of the CF that are actually accomplishing this feat.  The projection of power and our position in the world's spotlight is how well our deployable forces act - ie overseas deployments.  I would then counter your argument and say - should we focus directly on the defense of Canadian soil (of which the army takes a back seat) or should we be a solely deployable force and leave the defense of North America to the Police and DFO? 
Keep in mind that when our Navy and Air Force assets go on "exercise"  they are 100% operational (ie defending the Country) - can you say the same when 1CMBG deploys to Wainwright?
In my little nook of the CF, every time I go up flying I am operational - even my training flights are still at 30 min Notice to Move anywhere in BC and Yukon - if we're flying someone is dying...