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What Should the Army's Role, Capabilities & Structure Be?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Yard Ape
  • Start date Start date
Yes, the gov't bears some blame, but the Navy decided to eliminate the 5" gun for a 76mm AA weapon. The Navy bears some of the blame, just as the Army beasrs some of the blame for the way tanks seem to be going the way of the dino.
Considering most navies(mostly except for the RN and USN and a couple of others) new builds are 76mm for a main gun I think it was a good idea. The 5 inch is a slower firing weapon and considering the the proliferation of sea skimmers and cruise missiles coming on to the world stage, they went with something that could help defend the ship. As for support you might see us get the Harpoon2 to provide that modicum of aid to the troops ashore but in reality how will it help? NGS is a science that most be practiced regularly. Simulation is fine but live fire is where you confirm your skill set and I cannot see the Navy spending an added couple of million for missiles every couple of exercises..
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
As for support you might see us get the Harpoon2 to provide that modicum of aid to the troops ashore but in reality how will it help? NGS is a science that most be practiced regularly. Simulation is fine but live fire is where you confirm your skill set and I cannot see the Navy spending an added couple of million for missiles every couple of exercises..

Wouldn't that be a waste of a good a perfectly good Harpoon? LOL - unless it is to be used for some sort of preplanned deacapitation strike, or perhaps take out a bridge. If the troops are ashore, perhaps they might see fit to bring along something heavy with them and some radio gear to call for airsupport if available. Perhaps a Harpoon with a cluster munitions payload?

As far as NGS, one of the principle reasons it fell out of favour was it's ineffectiveness, especially with multi-purpose mountings, like the twin 3"70 POS. Awesome visuals but little practical effect for the massive expenditure of ammunition.  But ...  a dedicated NGS mount, such as the UDS 155mm that is supposed to go on the USN's DDX ship might be extremely useful to the army, since the FOO actually takes control of the rounds and guides them target ... 60 kms away from the ship.  Problem is that you need 2 of them, because one will surely be offline, and this necessitates a very large ship, in the order of 10 000 tonnes. 
 
Mountie..
The idea of being organized into Brigades is to have a basis for mobilization. We can (and do) still train more as Battle Groups. As for your suggestion for distributing the BGs around the country, I would suggest 1 BG in each of LFWA, LFCA and SQFT and 3 or 4 in Atlantic Canada..sound silly? ..Nine % of the population, 20 % of the Army (Reg). 1600 tps on ARCON with no Reg F Brigade. I think you underestimate us a tad.
 
Back to the NGS issue, it should be pointed out that the Brits found their ship-mounted guns invaluable in the Falklands conflict. Far from being ineffective, ship-mounted guns tend to have a higher rate of fire and can be just as accurate as Arty howitzers on hard ground. Read some of the accounts by RA naval gunfire controllers from that conflict - they did a lot of work with the SAS / SBS, as well as supplementing the regular Army's firepower. I've heard it said that "we'll never fight a war like that again..." but it doesn't change the fact that a good proportion of the world's population lives within spitting distance of a shoreline. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to think of a scenario where it could come in handy. Here's one:

- Non-combatant evacuation operation - Canada deploys JTF-2 to someplace like Ivory Coast or Liberia (without any integral artillery support, of course >:( ) and redirects a nearby frigate to help with the extraction. The crap hits the fan and JTF needs some firepower... If the frigate had a 5-inch it would help a great deal.

Most of the time it probably wouldn't be necessary. But it would restore the naval gunfire control capability to the CF - allowing FEOs (the new FOOs) to have yet another source of fire on call. Even if our own ships weren't available, the training a Cdn FEO received in conjuction with our Navy could help him/her call for fire from a US / RN vessel on a coalition operation if the case warrants. And our contingents don't always have an integral indirect fire subunit with them - this could partially address the shortfall, especially in the case of rapid deployments.

Thoughts?
 
It will come as no surprise to discover that not everyone agrees with me that another $10+ Billion is, in fact, easy to find in Ottawa.   Most people who stop to consider money in our nation's capital work from a zero sum base: all current spending is necessary, effective, efficient and proper and, therefore, any 'new' money for programme A must come from programmes B, C or D.

With that in mind and noting that the national commentariat has been beating the more drum for increased defence spending for months and months, it is timely to note that the social 'counter offensive' is in full swing ...   see, for example

The report, which condemns Canada for disregarding the very research on the importance of early childhood learning that it has been a world leader in producing, was nonetheless applauded by government ministers, child-care researchers, and advocates alike. It is a piece of perfect timing for the coming meeting of social-services ministers in Ottawa starting Nov. 1 where drafting a national system of early childhood education and care tops the agenda they say.
at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20041026/CHILDCARE26/TPNational/TopStories

The premiers are meeting with the federal government to work on a deal, with Ottawa holding firm to an offer of $10.9-billion a year in 2005-2006 that it made to the premiers at last month's health summit. The program was to have delivered $8.9-billion in 2004-2005, but Ottawa has also agreed to raise that figure to $10.8-billion.
at: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20041026.wprems1026/BNStory/National/

Both the provincial premiers, some of them, at least, and the child care proponents feel that they must be next in line at the federal trough ... just behind health care but before cities, the environment, tax cuts, agricultural subsidies, EI, seniors, the handicapped, post secondary education, the CBC ... corporate welfare, tourism, art galleries, symphony orchestras and, oh yes, down near the very bottom of the national priority list, defence.

It will take intense lobbying effort to keep defence budget increase REQUIREMENTS at the front of parliamentarians' minds â “ and it requires more effort now because all MPs matter in this type of minority government, not just a few ministers.

The DM and CDS cannot lobby, per se and my, personal, opinion of DND's tame lobby group â “ the Conference of Defence Associations â “ is fairly low, so ... well, don't hold your breath waiting for all those extra billions.
 
Further to my point about vehicles as generators.
I'll get back to structure when I have a few more minutes.  Cheers

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi-bin/client/modele.pl?session=dae.4308111.1089903978.QPadasOa9dUAAESlMZk&modele=jdc_34


Quantum Ships First Fuel Cell Vehicle to U.S. Army
 
 
(Source: Quantum Fuel Systems Technologies Worldwide; issued Oct. 25, 2004)
 
 
WASHINGTON, and IRVINE, Calif. --- Quantum Fuel Systems Technologies Worldwide, Inc., and the U.S. Army TARDEC's NAC (Tank-Automotive Research, Development and Engineering Center's National Automotive Center) unveiled a high performance, fuel cell off-road vehicle at the annual meeting of the Association of the U.S. Army in Washington, DC. 

The â Å“Quantum AMVâ ? (Alternative Mobility Vehicle), nicknamed the â Å“Aggressor,â ? is a fuel cell vehicle designed and manufactured by Quantum at its California operations for the U.S. Army under contract with the NAC. This vehicle provides significant advantages to U.S. troops for high mobility in stealth operations. 

Features of the Quantum Aggressor include: 

--Stealth mode: virtually silent operating mode with reduced thermal signature 
--High-performance: far superior acceleration compared to similar diesel or gasoline-powered all-terrain vehicles 
--Export power: on-board electric power generation to support communications, surveillance, targeting, and other electronic equipment 

The Quantum Aggressor runs on compressed hydrogen utilizing Quantum's proprietary Type IV impact resistant carbon fiber storage tanks. A 10 kW fuel cell is coupled with an energy storage module in a parallel hybrid configuration, which provides power on demand to a high-torque electric motor driving the rear-wheels. Preliminary tests have shown that the acceleration of the Quantum Aggressor is far superior to an unmodified gasoline internal combustion engine-powered all-terrain vehicle, reaching 40 miles per hour twice as fast. Ungoverned, the Quantum Aggressor is capable of reaching speeds of 80 miles per hour. Quantum's electronic control system imposes torque and speed limits on the drivetrain to enhance traction and safety. 

The Quantum Aggressor can be driven to the intended destination and then be used as a silent power generator to produce high quality electricity for telecommunications, surveillance, targeting, and other battlefield equipment. The vehicle does not produce any emissions throughout the different operating modes. 

In addition to being on display at the AUSA meeting, the Quantum Aggressor will be displayed at the annual SEMA (Specialty Equipment Market Association) show in Las Vegas, Nevada, from November 2 through 5, 2004, and the Special Operations Forces Week and Advance Planning Briefing To Industry Conference (SOCOM-APBI) in Tampa Bay, Florida, next June. Quantum and the NAC will also test and evaluate the vehicle on different military bases for a period of six months.
 
Guardian, I am going to open up an NGS forum in the Navy forum. Lets take this discussion there.
 
Further to the discussion about the structure of the CF and the reference to the RAF Regiment field squadron I thought I would post what I have been able to find out about the organization.   These comments are drawn from my interpretation of two articles that appeared in a British magazine Combat and Survival.   Their orbats and technical appreciations are usually accurate. The errors will be mine.

A RAF Field Squadron is an area defence entity, designed to hold an airfield against a lightly armed force and infiltration.

It comprises 164 all-ranks:   7 Officers, 1 Warrant, 13 NCO's, 24 Jr. NCO's and 119 other ranks (aircraftsmen).

These are organized into 6 platoons (or flights):   HQ flight, Logistics flight, Support Weapons flight, Machinegun and Sniper flight and 2 Rifle flights.

The Support Weapons flight, Machinegun and Sniper flight as well as the 2 Rifle flights are all apparently organize on the same basic structure as all of them can revert to Rifle flight roles and reports of the unit holding 4 51mm mortars, usually issued in British service at the rate of one per platoon HQ would seem to confirm this.

The basic structure is a platoon HQ of 1 Offr, 1 NCO and 2 Signallers with three 8 man sections under command.   The sections are broken down into two 4 man bricks.  

In a Rifle Platoon, the sections are identical, both in composition and structure.

In the Machinegun and Sniper platoon, one section divides into four 2 man teams each armed with the 7.62mm L96A1 (soon to be replaced by the Lapua LRR?) while the other two sections each man 2 7.62mm GPMGs (our C6) in the SF role.

The Support Weapons platoon mans 4 81mm mortars.   At a guess, based on maintaining the basic platoon structure this may be organized with 2 tube sections, each manning 2 mortars, and an observation section.

The Logistics platoon includes medics, chefs, mechanics, EME techs and armourers.

The HQ platoon apparently contains the usual assortment of dogsbodies.

The tactical organization of the Squadron is interesting here but as pbi has pointed out we don't organize out companies this way from a tactical view and also we probably don't need 138 identically organized light infantry/light cavalry companies.  

Having said that I think the RAF Squadron model does seem to offer some interesting capabilities for consideration.   These capabilities are based around its equipment and its structure.

First of all, looking at its equipment.

Operationally the Squadron has at its disposal the following assets:

Anti-Armour Weapons

LAW 94mm (2 per section)

Indirect fire

81mm mortars   4x
51mm mortars   4x (1 per platoon)
AGGS rifle grenades issued as ammunition

Direct fire

L96A1 7.62mm sniper rifles   4x
GPMG 7.62mm Sustained Fire and Bipod Mounts 14x   (4 SF and 10 bipods??)
SA80A2 5.56mm Light Support Weapons (2 per section)
SA80A2 5.56mm Individual Weapons (personal weapon for all personnel)

To facilitate operations the Squadron is also equipped with the following assets:

Situational Awareness

MSTAR (Manportable Surveillance Target Acquisition Radar)   2x
CLASSIC ground sensors   10x
Spyglass thermal imagers   10x
LP7 hand held laser range finders 4x
Passive night sights (2 per section)
CWS weapons sights (1 per LSW and IW)

Communications

VRC353 Vehicle mounted radios 14x
AM352 Amplified radios   31x
Clansman 74x

Mobility

Command Post Vehicle 1x
Motor Cycles 4x

Heavy Goods Vehicles (equivalent to our MLVW's - about 4 tonne capacity) 10x
Recovery Vehicle 1x
POL Vehicle 1x

Land Rovers with trailers   36x
Mortar Vehicles 4x

All of these non-tactical, facilitating capabilities I would imagine are the same capabilities that boydfish's EPC folks would find most valuable in time of local crisis.   He apparently isn't looking for warm bodies unless they are contributing something.

Curiously it seems to me that those capabilities are the same thing that we are missing at the unit level in the Militia/Reserves.   Without them and the opportunity to train with them training opportunities are curtailed, utility to the community is reduced and I would argue utility to the Army is curtailed.  

This local problem is the same problem that the CF at large has with respect to adequate LUVWs, LSVWs, MLVWs, HLVWs, Utility and Medium lift helicopters, Hercules replacements and Strategic Air and Sealift.   All of these transport capabilities along with Service Support like kitchens, water, sanitation and shelter are the very areas that boydfish and the emergency planners need.

So the question to me becomes not one of whose budget is going to be robbed to pay for these capabilities, thus depriving that department of other capabilities, but how can both departments present a common usage plan for the same set of kit.

I think I can hear the squawks now but hear me out......

I know that delivering services during a SARS epidemic entails a different risk than flying out troops when bullets are flying.

But.....

At bottom the difference is not the equipment, it is who is operating it and what they are being asked to do with it.

Sticking to the Militia/Reserves level and the local Squadron sized unit for a moment.

Could the argument be made, and could both Civil Defence and the Militia/Reserves and the CF at large live with this type of compromise?

The Government be requested to purchase for each Militia unit in the country kit to outfit one HQ platoon and one Logistics platoon after the fashion of the RAF Regiment Squadron.   These would be dispersed around the country, thus protected from disaster at any one location and would be available to be activated at short notice.   Manning would be a mixture of Permanent staff and Militia/Reserves with a high proportion of Class Cs and B's from the local community responsible for maintaining the kit.   Operators, like signalers and chefs and drivers would be Class A's.  

These manned and equipped HQ/Logistic entities would be beneficial to Emergency Preparedness.

However, it can't be forgotten that Civil Defence and the CF have one crucial difference between them.   Civil Defence exists to SAVE people.   The CF does not.

HQ and Logistics in the CF exist to support people, and can be employed to support civilians in crisis, and very effectively, but they exist primarily to Command and Support SOLDIERS â “ people prepared to close with and destroy the enemies of the nation.

If the government buys this equipment for the nation, to aid it in its periods of crises, then could the government not put the same equipment at the service of the CF in support of its soldiers so that they are rendered more operationally effective and can train more effectively.

What I am effectively suggesting, perhaps dangerously to some, is that the Militia units be built around a common backbone at the unit level.   That backbone would have to come to an accommodation serving two masters - both Emergency Preparedness, communicating with EPC, Coast Guards, RCMP, local police, fire and emergency services â “ as well as an operational element tasked in support of CF operations.

I could see such an organization having internal cohesion stresses but I also see a way for the CF to get kit, the Militia to get a role and capability, for training opportunities to improve and for the CF to get a true Plug'n'Play capability out of the Militia.   It could deploy complete subunits with their own A and B echelon support.   The senior organization wouldn't have to figure out how to feed and shelter these bodies.   Also it would present the CF the opportunity of fielding deployable independent subunits.

As well, as a_majoor suggested the concept is flexible.

The basic RAF structure, with its emphasis on light vehicles and small unit patrols is similar in role to a light recce armoured unit (much better equipped than currently envisioned in the CF but similar).

I agree with pbi.   There is no need for 138 light recce units with all other capabilities ignored.

I see no reason why, especially amongst F echelon, why the existing trades responsibilities couldn't be maintained.

For example, all of the infantry, artillery, armour and possibly the engineers could be organized on the basis of a doctrinal light infantry company at the tactical level.   Say for example three rifle platoons with weapons dets and possibly a marksman det, or whatever.   To this organization attach a supernumary fourth platoon similarly organized and manned but assigned to a particular skill set (mortars, guns, foot recce, engineers etc).   This fourth platoon/troop could be employed either to add depth to an independent deployment or it could be detached and chopped to a Regular force entity.

Such a subunit (Squadron) could continue to be a source of trained individuals for the CF on peace-time deployments.

Variations on a theme could be worked, for instance in a recce squadron maybe all four troops have LUVWs, maybe only the fourth troop has them.   Maybe the fourth troop has Bisons or LAVs instead.  

Service Support elements could be similarly organized but would probably be different in execution.

One point that I would make is particular to the Infantry.   I would start with all Infantry being organized on a light infantry basis but all infantry units should have adequate tactical vehicles to be able to lift all troops across rough terrain.   To do this I would think that you would want a vehicle small enough to be used on patrols, capable of lifting a large enough body of troops (minimum section) so that the number of drivers required can be minimized and not distract the unit from its primary role and capable of mounting (and supplied with the means to mount) medium and heavy weapons. Such vehicles should also be of benefit to the civil authorities.

Armoured vehicles may be supplied to the fourth platoon of some units but light infantry and light vehicles should be the order of the day, providing both a non-threatening vehicle for domestic operations (including tasks like delivering bodies to a fire line) as well as supplying a useful training platform and an operationally capable and internationally deployable platform.

Such an organization could be maintained by local personnel, working out of their home communities, if volunteers can be trusted to maintain fire trucks surely they can be trusted with these types of vehicles.   Perhaps they are employed on Class B callouts for 16 hours a week at the armouries specifically to maintain the kit.

Anyway, creating a Militia substructure like this would serve both the needs of the CF and EPC as well as the Militia itself.

And on a related thought, perhaps the other support equipment and services we need should be sold on the same basis.   One set of equipment, purchased to serve two departments but manned and operated according to the situation.   Volunteers for specific tasks if necessary....

Well that's my thought for the day.   Thoughts end.   Waiting for snickers to erupt and return fire.

Cheers.

By the way this would also necessitate a change to training and also to readiness checks.  Perhaps trainers will have to come to the units and a regular series of checks of readiness of personnel and equipment by dedicated Inspectors would do the job.
 
The one thought which went through my mind while reading Kirkhill's post was "ASG". The Area Support Group concept is similar in principle to what Kirkhill is suggesting; a "support backbone" that all units/formations in an Area can hook into for support. Unfortunately, my experiences with ASG have been frustrating, as it is a large and powerful bureaucratic monster, which responds to things on its own time and for its own reasons.

While I an fairly sure the reason for the ASG concept was to provide a strong and flexible logistics backbone as opposed to a cumbersome logistics tail, the reality of a centralization and the power of literally having everyone in the Area by the short and curlies has created something else.

If the support structure Kirkhill has in mind is pumping more resources into the ASG system, it probably would work, although I would certainly like to take a took kit and hammer out some of bureaucratic stuffing. If he is thinking of a separate EMS support chain, with its own budget and bureaucratic survival imperatives, then I can see both stand-up and operational nightmares happening as everyone wrestles for control.

I think the fundamental idea of a support backbone is good in theory, but more work has to be done in order to make it light and flexible.

Side note on Naval Gunfire; the US Navy's DD-X program may start with a 155, but the ultimate goal is to have an electromagnetic rail gun which can fire kinetic energy "darts" several hundred kilometers (with most of the trajectory being out of the atmosphere), and which can destroy hardened targets through kinetic energy alone. That would raise an interesting battlespace coordination issue as you now have to account for rounds screaming in from space....
 
a_majoor

I hadn't seen what I was discussing in the ASG light but your correct in essence.  However rather than have things centralized in half a dozen warehouse complexes across the country I am suggesting getting the kit distributed down to the unit level and make the units responsible for it.  As I kind of waltzed around, on the same model as the local Volunteer Fire Hall. 

I admit this would make it harder to administer and maintain, more things might get broken and go missing,  but that is where the kit needs to be.  And as in every other case make the unit responsible. 

I am suggesting that maintenance and care of the kit could be done with more local unit members on local Class B callouts, or even more authorized Class A hours.  The learning value and pride alone would be worth some effort.  As noted if the local Volunteer Firemen can take care of their kit can't the Militia do the same.

As to the manning of the Logistics and HQ platoons, I see that as a mix of Regs and Local Reservists, all at various levels of callout (determined by how many hours are realistically required to perform their tasks), all locally based and all undertaking the job on the understanding that they are double hatted.  They have an operational role that they must train for and support but they also have an Emergency Services Support role that they can be called out for at any time.

They are CF personnel first, training to support their tactical element at war, but they are also on call to support the local Fire Department.
 
Kirkhill: you are a prolific fellow, aren't you! ;D

Anything that makes the Army Reserve more capable with a clear focus on readiness for combat operations, has my vote. By implication, improving combat capabilities such as C2, CSS, mobility and survivability will also improve the utility of the Res unit to its community in the case of a civil emergency that exceeds the capacity of local agencies.

However, much of what you are encouraging (as good and useful as it is...) exists to some degree or another already. In particular as I have observed earlier, the capability of the Army Res to respond to civil emergencies (as well as the wllingness of the DCDS to use them) has increased exponentially in the last decade, as it should have.

A few specific comments:
Curiously it seems to me that those capabilities are the same thing that we are missing at the unit level in the Militia/Reserves.  Without them and the opportunity to train with them training opportunities are curtailed, utility to the community is reduced and I would argue utility to the Army is curtailed.  

While the heavier support wpns and nivis eqpt do not normally exist at unit level, pretty well all of the other capabilities exist to a greater or lesser degree either at unit level, or if not certainly regionally within each CBG. It is actually at CBG level that most detailed planning and coordination for civil response occurs, because that is the first level of C2 at which there is adequate planning horsepower and access to resources. For example, within 38 CBG while our individual units may respond immediately to a local "Imminent Life and Limb" if requested by local authorities, the next stage of response is one or more of our BISON coys that are constituted on a regional basis with adequate C2, mobility and CSS capabilities based on all Bde resources. What is lacking, in my opinion, is integral CSS at unit level. The version of ARE that took the CSS away was, IMHO, an error  in judgement.

The Government be requested to purchase for each Militia unit in the country kit to outfit one HQ platoon and one Logistics platoon after the fashion of the RAF Regiment Squadron.  These would be dispersed around the country, thus protected from disaster at any one location and would be available to be activated at short notice.  Manning would be a mixture of Permanent staff and Militia/Reserves with a high proportion of Class Cs and B's from the local community responsible for maintaining the kit.  Operators, like signalers and chefs and drivers would be Class A's. ...These manned and equipped HQ/Logistic entities would be beneficial to Emergency Preparedness.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, this is already beginning in 39 CBG, and has been proposed for the other Res CBGs in LFWA.As OCIPEP is actually under DND (or was...) it is the same budget (but anyway its a bit academic as all Govt expenditure comes of of the General Revenue-it's just a question of priorities as you pointed out). I agree that Res units need a higher proportion of full time people, although they do not necessarily need to be Regular (full time in the USARNG, for example, is done almost totally by ARNG soldiers not by Active Army)

What I am effectively suggesting, perhaps dangerously to some, is that the Militia units be built around a common backbone at the unit level.  That backbone would have to come to an accommodation serving two masters - both Emergency Preparedness, communicating with EPC, Coast Guards, RCMP, local police, fire and emergency services â “ as well as an operational element tasked in support of CF operations.

This is more less what exists now. However, we only have so many people/resources: if we deploy them to one kind of op, we can't use them for another (or even engage in training..)

One point that I would make is particular to the Infantry.  I would start with all Infantry being organized on a light infantry basis but all infantry units should have adequate tactical vehicles to be able to lift all troops across rough terrain.  To do this I would think that you would want a vehicle small enough to be used on patrols, capable of lifting a large enough body of troops (minimum section) so that the number of drivers required can be minimized and not distract the unit from its primary role and capable of mounting (and supplied with the means to mount) medium and heavy weapons. Such vehicles should also be of benefit to the civil authorities


I see what you mean, but at present we are heading toward a very specific usage of "light infantry" in our Army: it will likely come to rfer to high-readiness "Ranger" type units. But I know what you'r getting at.

Such an organization could be maintained by local personnel, working out of their home communities, if volunteers can be trusted to maintain fire trucks surely they can be trusted with these types of vehicles.  Perhaps they are employed on Class B callouts for 16 hours a week at the armouries specifically to maintain the kit.

Pretty well what happens now, although again I think we could do a much better job of giving Res units an integral CSS capability. Just because it was mismanaged in the past (and, IMHO, "cut the grass" of some people in the CSS world..) is no reason not to try again, smarter.

By the way this would also necessitate a change to training and also to readiness checks.  Perhaps trainers will have to come to the units and a regular series of checks of readiness of personnel and equipment by dedicated Inspectors would do the job.

In LFWA at the moment this exists in two ways: there is an annual ATI of equipment, and each unit must field its Mission Tasked Element to take part in at least one evaluated exercise/yr. I am not sure COs would be too keen to see hordes of "Inspecctors" descending unless they were followed by "Fixers and Helpers"

Cheers.





 
OK pbi,  time for me to put a cork in it anyway and let you professionals have at it.  ;D :salute:

Seriously, the reason I post is twofold (ok maybe three - I do enjoy seeing my thoughts out there) one is just to present alternatives, not necessarily correct and often wrong just to see for myself if I understand how things are being done and how they are progressing. The second is I continue to see this board as an opportunity to educate some of us civvy lurkers and potential supporters of the cause.  I figure that if my thoughts get knocked out of the ballpark with a rational response then I have learned something and maybe its given some others something to chew on.

Cheers, and thanks for the rational responses.

 
OK pbi,  time for me to put a cork in it anyway and let you professionals have at it.   

This would be the worst possible result: we all benefit from each other's perspective and experience: that is the great strength of Army.ca.

Cheers, and thanks for the rational responses.

You are welcome. Cheers.
 
the US does peacekeeping and nation building-they are doing it right here and now in Afghanistan, using   Regular Army, Army Reserve and National Guard forces including both conventional and SF forces. They are transitioning back and forth to combat ops as required.It's quite interesting and blows our Canadian stereotypes out the window.

pbi: just going back over my diatribes and your responses, I just wanted to clarify something on this point -   I wasn't suggesting that the Americans don't make good peacekeepers, nor I guess should I suggested that they didn't know how.   The Marines and the Special Forces have both demonstrated that they can in the past.   In fact IIRC the SF "Green Berets" were effectively raised with hearts and minds operations as a, if not the, primary focus.

No, the point I was trying to make is that the US Army in particular appeared to me to have been an Armour heavy (if not dominated) organization that believed in combining Cavalry Raids (some raids may be a couple of years long but the intention was to get in and get out - not hang around for the long haul) with a massive Artillery force capable of delivering overwhelming fire support.   And from where I stand that spectrum of fire support starts with the Mortar and the Tank Gun - although perhaps it should start with the rifle - and proceeds through 155s and MLRS's, past F16s and B2s all the way to ICBMs.

The point I was trying to make is that the Americans themselves, in talking about this Transformation are could in fact be construed as converting from a Cavalry Ethos to an Infantry Ethos.   Converting from the notion of the raid, to the notion of holding ground.

Don't take me wrong. I am a believer in and supporter of both the Americans and their forces, especially at the individual level.

Cheers.

(Cork in).

By the way, after reviewing your responses here and under the Domestic Response Coys thread I see that I am late on parade again.   ;) :salute:

(Cork back in)

 
ARMYboi69 said:
Many parents are buying Kevlar Vests here in sending them to their sons that are in the military, deployed in Afghnistan or somewhere else because the ones the military provide are old and irrelivant.

Could you provide a source for this information? I haven't heard of this happening here - or are you talking about events in the US?
 
American Army Doctrine has been dominated by "AirLand Battle" since the early 1980's. This in turn was a response to the US changing its strategic focus from the periphery to the centre (ie wars in the third world to the Central Front in Europe), and lessons learned form the 1973 Yom Kippur war. Given the potential threats, strategic focus and available technology of the day, it is hardly surprising that we now see the "Heavy Metal Army" dominated by massive armoured vehicles and supported by air and artillery power on a scale no other army or armed force in the world can match. The cavalry analogy isn't quite correct; the American way of war calls for slashing attacks to unbalance the enemy, supported by massive amounts of firepower to destroy opposition.

To their credit, the US Army has supported niche activities like Low Intensity Combat (Special Forces, Green Berets, Rangers), and have been attempting to undergo a transformation form the Heavy Metal Army to a lighter and more flexable instrument. Given AirLand Battle took about ten years to develop and another ten years for validation (the First Persian Gulf War), I am not at all surprised they are having a rocky time right now, using the Heavy Metal Army to conduct a counter-insurgency war in phase 2 of the Second Persian Gulf War (Phase 3 could either be a Kerry pull out, or recognizing that Iran and Syria are part of the problem, and dealing with them).

The transformational effort does not contradict the American way of war at all, the Future Combat System suite of vehicles are meant to be lighter, faster and more lethal, while backed by precision firepower to destroy the opposition (in the form of PGM's delivered by all kinds of platforms).

WRT ASG's and other supporting structures, I totally agree things should be dispersed, with sea cans of supplies sitting inside unit compounds and a few extra trucks and drivers on the unit roles to support the DOMOPS scenarios. There will still be a need for a centralized structure to do the mundane things like purchase items, stock sea cans, ensure the stock is rotated etc. My big concern is pretty soon, you could see the support structure driving the operation, rather than the other way around. ("Hey, we bought those trucks, so we'll tell you what trucks are suitable and when to use them").

You are correct in stating the extra logisticians, signallers and bodies will also enhance the combat capabilities of the unit, but if an "outside agency" is supplying the funds, won't they also try to dictate the terms of service ("Who said you could take OUR trucks and drivers to the Res BTE?"), negating any potential increase in combat capability.

Once again, I think we are putting the cart before the horse. The very first thing we need to know is what is our job, as laid out in an unambiguous White Paper. Once we know that, then it is easier to figure out how many submarines, LUVW's or lunch rooms the CF needs to procure, and what support structure is best suited for the tasks at hand.
 
ARMYboi69 said:
I have heard about this going on in Canada, and it's been on News TV Stations, so I can't give you a link. I also have heard about this going on in the U.S. too, and the U.S. have had this happen more.

Unless you're willing to validate your claim with proof, why don't you stick to chasing skirts at your highschool instead of throwing the conversation off topic with your speculation and hearsay.
 
Once again, I think we are putting the cart before the horse. The very first thing we need to know is what is our job, as laid out in an unambiguous White Paper. Once we know that, then it is easier to figure out how many submarines, LUVW's or lunch rooms the CF needs to procure, and what support structure is best suited for the tasks at hand.

Fair comment.

But I think that part of the value of this exercise is determining what things might be doable, how close is our existing structure to the demands that we might place on it in the future and thus, from that how much money is involved.

I don't think you can look at it as a linear process (this is what we want/need to do, this is what we want/need to buy, this is the cost, write the cheque).  It has to be an iterative process, you have to go round and round in ever decreasing circles for a while before working your way to the target (hopefully not doing the inevitable and disappearing up your own a***hole).

The Aussies, as in so many things, got it about as right as possible.  They sat Defence, Treasury and Foreign Affairs (I would add Anne McLellan's bunch as well) down at the one table and had them sort out the problem jointly.

So in the meantime...does it hurt to consider what you might be able to do if..?

Cheers.

BTW points on the AirLand Battle taken,  as is the comment to the effect that a focus on LIC activities does not mean that High Intensity Warfare needs can be ignored or are wrong.  The point is that both capabilities need to be addressed and the US force was/is heavy on HIC capabilities and light on LIC capabilities.  And that has been a conscious US Army policy since at least Vietnam - some soldiers, up to an including General Powell, apparently didn't want to focus on tools that would allow an administration to get them back into another Vietnam situation. AirLand Battle grew out of that mindset.

As to the ownership and use of equipment, certainly that would be a sticking point.  Is it insurmountable?

 
pbi said:
Anything that makes the Army Reserve more capable with a clear focus on readiness for combat operations, has my vote. By implication, improving combat capabilities such as C2, CSS, mobility and survivability will also improve the utility of the Res unit to its community in the case of a civil emergency that exceeds the capacity of local agencies.

This goes back to Defence Policy and Defence Tasks - and we would have to be very careful in how we "sold" this.  Proposing an enhanced EPC role for the Militia will become a self-fulfilling prophecy.  We are supposed to be a force of last recourse, but if we receive funding and equipment specifically for EPC type tasks, that could quickly end up as our raison d'etre.  The Civil Preparedness days of the 60s and 70s just about killed the Militia, and we wouldn't want to go down that route agin...would we?


As OCIPEP is actually under DND (or was...) it is the same budget (but anyway its a bit academic as all Govt expenditure comes of of the General Revenue-it's just a question of priorities as you pointed out).

Actually, they have been hived of to the Minister of Public Safety who is also the Dep PM), and are called PSEPC now.

I agree that Res units need a higher proportion of full time people, although they do not necessarily need to be Regular (full time in the USARNG, for example, is done almost totally by ARNG soldiers not by Active Army)

Heretic time...

How about if the RSS currently posted in to units focus on their primary functions, and devote less time to full time school, career courses, tours overseas etc etc.  I know, that is a broad brush and hence intrinsically unfair comment to make, but I seem to remember that RSS was supposed to be hard work - and ultimately very rewarding.

Dave
 
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