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What Should the Army's Role, Capabilities & Structure Be?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Yard Ape
  • Start date Start date
While I don't have the military experience of the various people here, I used to be a emergency planner for one of the largest health care regions in the confederation, oddly located in BC.  Hopefully, this can help move the discussion forward.

First, the thing that needs to be understood is that if it's going to be here in over 72 hours, don't bother sending it, because the people it wil likely help will be dead.  The people trapped in buildings, critically injured or otherwise in distress are dead at that point.  If you're talking about CF assistance in disaster operations as an aid to civil power, a 12 hour response time will do nicely, but every hour after that up to 48 means another few hundred "injured" converting to "dead".  After that, the difference between 72 hours and 72 days is non-existant:  All you're doing is moving rubble around with a shovel in both cases.

Second, send me nothing I ever need to feed or fuel because I won't.  Sending me a battalion of Picklies from Alberta is counter-productive if they don't run thier own fully independent logistics train with them.  I'm too busy feeding and fueling my own log train to deal with even 50 extra people.  I'll feed and fuel CF people/equipment if they have special skills to further my own agenda that I can't get elsewhere, ex. a med coy or a sqdrn of engineers, but that's it.  I'm also going to be interested in units that will increase my own logistic efforts, ie. a helo sqdrn that I can use to lift people to Royal Inland hospital or a Herc load of IMPs.

In terms of fending off an invasion of BC proper, that's really a non-concern.  The approaches that could be taken are pretty heavily protected by NORAD and the USCG by simple default:  The Alaskan and Washington coasts bracket the BC coast, making them monitor it by default more than anything else.  As well, fighting a war in BC would be a great way for an invader to die:  Every kind of terrain on the planet, including deserts, dense urban, sub-arctic, sub-tropical jungle, alpine and maritime environments in a land mass larger than most countries on the planet.  Look at the Normandy invasion of WW2:  The Allies had to land thousands of troops and countless supplies to fight across the relatively "easy" terrain of Western Europe.  Care to imagine how long a single kampfgruppe could have held the line on the average coastal mountain?  If the locals can bottle that beachhead for six months, the CF can bomb them insensate and then run them right back into the Pacific, no problem.

My suggestion for the organization of the CF would in line of "Two Armies" mentioned before, but perhaps not in the format that it was advanced.  Here's what my basic idea is:  Since the CF cannot afford the resources to have fast enough/large enough forces reach all points of the confederation for aid to civil power operations, it needs a strong reserve/auxilliary force to provide immediate response.  The broad idea is that the local reserve/auxillary force would provide immediate mitigation of the problem as well as laying the basis of a logistical train to run the regular force in if required.  However, in broad terms, I'd want a reserve/auxillary force that is fully independent, fully equipped and able to operate unsupported by the regular force for a minimum standard of 30 days.
 
Boydfish I generally like what you are saying but why do you specify 30 days of independent operations?  Is it not likely that a supply line could be opened in less time than that?  The options are road, rail, sea, fixed wing and helo.  Does your planning suggest that all links will be severed completely for that length of time?

 
Interesting responses to the home guard argument. Unlike Kirkhill, I would have put MORE emphasis on things like Medical/Engineering because any event severe enough to require military call-up is probably one which affects the infrastructure in one way or another. This doesn't have to be a terrorist event, just think back to the Ice Storm or Manitoba Floods.

While the requirement to be self contained isn't in dispute, I wonder how it could best be done. The current system requires the logistics train to move out to the AOR, which might be problematic in some cases, especially in light of the 12hr time-line (I would have thought 24 myself). If the 12hr figure is a "given", then part of the restructuring will have to be pre-packing and pre-positioning supplies in armouries and depots to keep a unit up and running for several days to a week. This shouldn't be taken as building a huge warehouse beside each armoury, but several pallet-loads or 20' "sea cans" of vital supplies (IMP,s, water, radio batteries, extra radios, fuel etc.) This would require the Area Support Groups to keep tabs on things and rotate the stock at least annually (exchanging old sea cans for new ones, then taking the consumables out of the old sea cans and using or destroying them as appropriate.)

For units, this would mean at least one extra HLVW type truck to move the sea cans, along with the full time drivers to run and maintain the truck.

Expenses for implementing this system should be picked up by either the emergency management system, or by the Provincial Solicitor-General's office, since they are the outfits which will call for military assistance.

Reserve support for the Expeditionary force should be augmentation by available people, either as individuals, or formed sub-units. If a unit isn't designated for some specialty Home Guard task like NBC Defense, then they should be trained with the same doctrine and equipment as the Expeditionary force (even if it is using simulation systems and the real thing once a year) in order to interoperate with Expeditionary force units. (This is the biggest weakness right now, since Reserve Infantry could only realistically augment the three LIBs, and Reserve Armour is now inhabiting a completely different world than the rest of the Corps. I am not entirely sure how Reserve Arty fits in any more...) The amount of re-training to bring augmentees up to speed really limits the usefulness of Reserve soldiers in many situations, and this is not a knock at the reserves, but the system we operate in.
 
For units, this would mean at least one extra HLVW type truck to move the sea cans, along with the full time drivers to run and maintain the truck.

Expenses for implementing this system should be picked up by either the emergency management system, or by the Provincial Solicitor-General's office, since they are the outfits which will call for military assistance.


Just nitpicking here but I think you would have to factor in the cost of full-time security on the provisions also.
 
By all means, just get the Solicitor General's fin code!

Actually, a set of sea-cans placed inside the armoury compound shouldn't cost all that much over and above the regular operating costs, and the cans themselves would have "customs seals" so the ASG personell would be able to see if a can had been pilfered during the rotation cycle.

Probably the biggest expense would be the trucks and possibly handling equipment (if the sea cans are stacked, for example), followed by the recurring stock rotation costs, then the manpower costs for the extra staff at the Reserve units. Security is probably not going to be as big of a factor in terms of operational costs.
 
Unlike Kirkhill, I would have put MORE emphasis on things like Medical/Engineering because any event severe enough to require military call-up is probably one which affects the infrastructure in one way or another

My point here, and I stand to be corrected or proven wrong, is that on the medical front, in the event of a major disaster in the lower mainland, given the number of medically qualified personnel and the dispersal of hospitals in the area I feel that it will be more effective to get undamaged and least damaged facilities back on line with emergency power and water, then transport patients and staff to the facilities that are "up".  If I am not mistaken it takes quite a bit of effort, logistically to get even one field hospital (do we have one yet?) and staff (are we at authorized manning levels, is that enough and will they be available if our two battlegroups are deployed overseas?).  And one field hospital seems to have a capacity of about 200 patients.  Basically a drop in the bucket.  On those grounds I think it would be better to figure out how to make better use of the facilities that are available locally. 

Perhaps the local medical community and reserves should become familiarized with each other. Not to mention police, fire and SAR.

The need to transport patients regardless of road availability suggests to me the need for tactical transport like helos, all wheel drive 2.5 tonnes and vehicles like the Bv206.    Also, in the event of disaster, anywhere in the world looting and lawlessness seem to present a risk.  Thus my suggestion for the need for security forces.  Comms I think are self explanatory.  And some specialist engineering capabilities, but traditional "mobility" engineering and "vertical" engineering could surely be handled by local civilian contractors, especially if they were organized in advance by boydfish and his ilk.

Cheers.

 
While I cannot speak for the lower mainland, living in Ontario, I do recall how completely things went for a loop during the Ice Storm, and the great power blackout two summers ago. Heck, even the SARS outbreak in Toronto almost paralyzed the medical community.

While you are most likely correct in thinking the field hospital would only be a drop in the bucket over-all, I can see a scenario where the hospital operates close to the disaster area as the triage centre, quickly stabilizing patients and then getting them whisked away to operational hospitals outside the zone.

Similarly, if *1 CER were to arrive at the disaster area right away, they could do some initial "digging", survey the area and do the organizing of civilian kit as it arrives on scene.

It would take an improbably large medical and engineering infrastructure for the Home Guard or Reserves to take on 100% of the task.

The getting acquainted part of the equation is happening here, partly because we do have serving reservists who are police, fire and ambulance workers, and because we are building on the groundwork from OP ABACUS (1999-2000), where we did some planning along those lines. You are right, we need to do more work along these lines.
 
Folks: very interesting discussion. A few comments:

Role of Reserve in Dom Ops: We in LFWA may be a bit ahead of the pack already. 39 CBG is in the process of being issued seacans with emergency supplies to be kept at selected armouries for use in response to a major earthquake disaster (CONPLAN PALADIN). LFWA's planning for initial response relies heavily upon 39 CBG as the ground "force in place", as it could be some time before the remainder of LFWA (1 CMBG, 1 ASG, 38 and 41 CBGs) could move forces in.  Comd LFWA two years ago issued an authorization to all Res COs to respond immediately in their communities to bona fide "immediate life and limb" requests from local officials, without recourse to higher auth(this is for emergency humanitarian assistance only). Here in 38 CBG, under CONPLAN BISON, we have plans for three regional response coys, each designed to be as self-sufficient and mobile as possible. We tested this CONPLAN out during OP PEREGRINE and found it to be fairly effective, although we have a few things to sort out and improve.  So, all to say that within reasonable limitatons, Res units can play a leading role in Dom Ops, and indeed IMHO they should.


Reserve as a Home Guard: I would be opposed to depriving the Regular Army of a valuable and necessary augmentation base by converting the entire Army Reserve to nothing but Home Guard(or Home Defense, or WTH you want to call it...) Our Regular Army is simply too small and too shallow, and likely will be for some time to come, to sever itself from an effective augmentation base. I agree that Res units can and should be assigned some local security roles, but these must be realistic and achievable and must not detract from combat training: there is simply not enough time to do everything.

Reserve assuming HAZMAT/CBRN Role: I doubt that we will ever be able to train Res soldiers to be first responders in this role. Consider that the "real" first line of defence for this in Canada, our professional full-time fire depts located in larger centres, find it very demanding to maintain only a few small teams trained and properly equipped to respond to the huge and ever-broadening field of threats in this area. Most smaller, volunteer fire depts (the majority of the total number of fire depts in Canada BTW) have only an extremely limited capability to respond to  serious or complex incident. They face the same (or worse) training time issues as our Res do. I suggest that, at best, our Res units could provide GS to civilian first responders, but that is about it;

Reserve Providing Medical/Engineer/Technical Forces: Based on what I have seen in the Dom Ops I have been involved in, I wouldn't bother too much. The civil sector has far, far more capacity, better training, and more current skill sets than we will ever have in these areas. For example, when we ran the Op for the Toronto SnowStorm, the City deployed about 800 pieces of snowfighting equipment. 2 CMBG brought about ten pieces, most of it not really ideal for snow clearing in cities. What we really bring to these emergencies are the traits we require (and acquire) for combat operations: strong C2, ISTAR, mobility, flexibility, self-sufficiency, and the ability to rapidly task organize under all sorts of conditions. Most civilian organizations have few or none of these capabilities.

Cheers.
 
Infanteer and I were discussing something along these lines the other day.

Is there any merit to rethinking the Militia as a body of independent teams along the lines of the RAF Regiment Field Squadrons?   The Field Squadron is a self contained deployable body of about 150 personnel that fields 4 rifle platoons. All platoons are trained in basic infantry tactics, focussed on area defence.   All platoons are trained to do vehicular patrols in Landrovers.   One platoon has additional skills and responsibilities in providing marksmen/snipers and machine gunners, while the fourth platoon is responsible for manning 4x 81mm mortars as the situation demands.   The Squadron has something like 30 to 40 Landrovers and trailers as well as IIRC 11 MLVW type vehicles and a POL vehicle to supply logistic support (including field kitchen) as well as having its own CP and Comms that also includes 4 despatch riders.

As of now I believe there are about 138 individual militia units across Canada.   Suppose the planning base started from a force of 138 Field Squadron type units spread across Canada. That equals roughly one per every 200-250,000 people or two electoral districts.    In urban areas the Squadrons could be brigaded and capabilities combined to a degree for the sake of efficiencies but always recognizing the advantages of having dispersed units capable of taking independent action.

I recognize that 138 x 40 Jeeps is an awful lot of money (about $200,000,000 if we could get them at $35,000 each) not to mention trucks and comms.

The Squadrons could have their current specialized war roles (infantry, lt armd, arty, engr, etc...) but they would also be required to become proficient in the skill sets described above.  

Question here:   Is it realistic to have the Res Svc Bns involved in maintenance or would they be better employed transport and movement roles?

Also, I believe that military first aid has advanced a lot since my day.   Aren't troops being trained to intervene more aggressively when their buddy is wounded alongside them?   It seems to me that I have heard of infanteers being taught to introduce intravenous solutions in the field.     If that is the case I can't help but think that boydfish would not look ungratefully on a formed uniformed body, in vehicles that can handle floods, slides, debris fields and broken roads, capable of extracting the uninjured, offering first aid where appropriate and communicating with the limited EMS personnel as to where they are needed.   All the time their presence in uniform, possibly with side arms would act as a stabilizing force and help to lend an air of security.

On the HAZMAT front pbi, there I was wondering if there was a role for the Federal Government to supply funding for Full time CBRN trained teams through the Militia, comprised of Regular personnel and Militia personnel on fulltime Callout (that's C Class isn't it?).   I agree with you that I don't think that Militiamen can be that all-singing all-dancing but suppose each of my Squadrons was equipped with a HAZMAT section on standby, as I said that would be the full-time job of those individuals, perhaps some or all of them could be equipped on a similar basis with an EOD or even CT capability.

Further to the HAZMAT issue, and this would be in keeping with NBC training I would think, how much emphasis should be given to training troops to maintain order in a HAZMAT environment when confronting an angry and frightened and unprotected populace.   For example what happens if another SARS epidemic breaks out and it is decided to quarantine Toronto.   How would we prevent people panicking and leaving?   How would people react to being confronted by troops, even unarmed troops, in Gas Masks and NBC suits telling them to go back?

I agree with you that the Militia shouldn't end up being divorced from the Regs.   There should be a free flow of personnel between the Militia and the Regs.   But perhaps, in assigning war roles we could start by looking at domestic needs, deciding what we need to do locally, then looking at some of those skills and asking if it is not appropriate for the Regs to ask the Militia to supply those skills when necessary to augment the expeditionary force.   Those skills that the Militia do not supply, either through lack of domestic need or it being unreasonable to expect any great degree of proficiency then those are the skills that will need to be held in the Regular forces.

Based on the scenarios described here Militia skills would be skill at arms with small arms and sidearms,   section and platoon tactics, communications procedures, vehicular movements and patrols, transport and logistics, first aid, operations in an NBC environment, C2 and ISTAR, possibly even (and contentiously) IS drills.   Any time left over could be devoted to marksmanship with heavy weapons, tactical movements, patrolling, ATGMs, Mors and Guns.  

Oh dear, I may have done it again.......oh well, have at it ;) :salute:
 
Is there any merit to rethinking the Militia as a body of independent teams along the lines of the RAF Regiment Field Squadrons?  The Field Squadron is a self contained deployable body of about 150 personnel that fields 4 rifle platoons. All platoons are trained in basic infantry tactics, focussed on area defence.  All platoons are trained to do vehicular patrols in Landrovers.  One platoon has additional skills and responsibilities in providing marksmen/snipers and machine gunners, while the fourth platoon is responsible for manning 4x 81mm mortars as the situation demands.  The Squadron has something like 30 to 40 Landrovers and trailers as well as IIRC 11 MLVW type vehicles and a POL vehicle to supply logistic support (including field kitchen) as well as having its own CP and Comms that also includes 4 despatch riders.

OK, but what happens to the role of "augment the Regular Force"? Unless the RegF is composed of similar units, how will we execute this function? For example, how would we augment/repl units of Engrs, Arty, Armour, etc? A few units like this might be of use,  but I would not be in favour of wholesale conversion to this role. unless the Regular Army was to go to a corresponding organization.

The Squadrons could have their current specialized war roles (infantry, lt armd, arty, engr, etc...) but they would also be required to become proficient in the skill sets described above

37.5 days/year: that's what you're up against. What will you cut so you can teach this other skill set?

Also, I believe that military first aid has advanced a lot since my day.  Aren't troops being trained to intervene more aggressively when their buddy is wounded alongside them?  It seems to me that I have heard of infanteers being taught to introduce intravenous solutions in the field. 

This is for Regular Force or for soldiers deploying on operations. It is not normally part of Res trg (although it certainly could be if we found time for it...)

If that is the case I can't help but think that boydfish would not look ungratefully on a formed uniformed body, in vehicles that can handle floods, slides, debris fields and broken roads, capable of extracting the uninjured, offering first aid where appropriate and communicating with the limited EMS personnel as to where they are needed.  All the time their presence in uniform, possibly with side arms would act as a stabilizing force and help to lend an air of security

OK-we can do that more or less now. See my earlier post on our CONPLAN BISON, also see LFCA's CONPLAN TRILLIUM which has a similar concept.

On the HAZMAT front pbi, there I was wondering if there was a role for the Federal Government to supply funding for Full time CBRN trained teams through the Militia, comprised of Regular personnel and Militia personnel on fulltime Callout (that's C Class isn't it?).  I agree with you that I don't think that Militiamen can be that all-singing all-dancing but suppose each of my Squadrons was equipped with a HAZMAT section on standby, as I said that would be the full-time job of those individuals, perhaps some or all of them could be equipped on a similar basis with an EOD or even CT capability

OK-but I have a hard time thinking about Class C as "Reservists"-they are gap-fillers in Regular establishments.(OK-OK-calm down everybody!!!) I agree with you that once you put a Res soldier  on full time service, you have solved the "time available" issue, but the question in my mind is the employment of the "traditional" Reservist: the Class A, 37.5  days/per year and two weeks in the summer  guy who makes up the overwhelming bulk of our Reserve. IMHO we have to think about roles and missions that make sense for that guy, not for the relatively few Res who can go on Class C.

Further to the HAZMAT issue, and this would be in keeping with NBC training I would think, how much emphasis should be given to training troops to maintain order in a HAZMAT environment when confronting an angry and frightened and unprotected populace.  For example what happens if another SARS epidemic breaks out and it is decided to quarantine Toronto.  How would we prevent people panicking and leaving?  How would people react to being confronted by troops, even unarmed troops, in Gas Masks and NBC suits telling them to go back

How would you prevent people from panicking and leaving a city with a metropolitan area of over 4million people? I don't know, short of deploying the entire CF and every spare cop you can lay your hands on. You are venturing into the ever controversial issue of using the Res for public order ops. Now, the USARNG does this, and the average level of training of the average USARNG soldier is, as far as I can make out, no better than the average Canadian Army Reserve soldier. For a start, our guys parade much more often. So, in theory this skillset could be taught to our guys. But, again, what unit training do you drop to develop and maintain this skillset? It has to be refreshed regularly or the troops will be a liability rather than an asset. Do you want money spent to buy riot gear or other, more combat-related stuff?

I agree with you that the Militia shouldn't end up being divorced from the Regs.  There should be a free flow of personnel between the Militia and the Regs.  But perhaps, in assigning war roles we could start by looking at domestic needs, deciding what we need to do locally, then looking at some of those skills and asking if it is not appropriate for the Regs to ask the Militia to supply those skills when necessary to augment the expeditionary force.  Those skills that the Militia do not supply, either through lack of domestic need or it being unreasonable to expect any great degree of proficiency then those are the skills that will need to be held in the Regular forces.

I suggest that is designing an Army backwards. Maybe what Canada needs is a volunteer Civil Defense Service, like we had in the 1950s, to concentrate on disaster skills to augnment the civil authorities. You would probably attract people who want to serve, but don't want to be in the military. Then we could focus our very limited training time and resources on training our soldiers for operations, while retaining an approriate "last resort" or "immediate life and limb" response capability much as we have now.

Based on the scenarios described here Militia skills would be skill at arms with small arms and sidearms,  section and platoon tactics, communications procedures, vehicular movements and patrols, transport and logistics, first aid, operations in an NBC environment, C2 and ISTAR, possibly even (and contentiously) IS drills.  Any time left over could be devoted to marksmanship with heavy weapons, tactical movements, patrolling, ATGMs, Mors and Guns. 

I agree: but that's pretty well what they do now. Cheers.
 
I always look for commonalities and points of agreement so on that note let me look at where we seem to be in accord first.

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Based on the scenarios described here Militia skills would be skill at arms with small arms and sidearms,   section and platoon tactics, communications procedures, vehicular movements and patrols, transport and logistics, first aid, operations in an NBC environment, C2 and ISTAR, possibly even (and contentiously) IS drills.   Any time left over could be devoted to marksmanship with heavy weapons, tactical movements, patrolling, ATGMs, Mors and Guns.  


I agree: but that's pretty well what they do now. Cheers.

37.5 days/year: that's what you're up against.

OK so the basic skills that I suggested are skills that Militiamen currently have.   So the basic training plan and career development plan works and works reasonably well within the context of 37.5 days per year.   Is that a fair statement?   Would it also be a fair statement that the skills described above are basic "soldier" skills and would be common to all trades, whether infanteer or EME? Especially in an environment where it has been suggested by others that the "tail" needs to be hardened.



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If that is the case I can't help but think that boydfish would not look ungratefully on a formed uniformed body, in vehicles that can handle floods, slides, debris fields and broken roads, capable of extracting the uninjured, offering first aid where appropriate and communicating with the limited EMS personnel as to where they are needed.   All the time their presence in uniform, possibly with side arms would act as a stabilizing force and help to lend an air of security

OK-we can do that more or less now. See my earlier post on our CONPLAN BISON, also see LFCA's CONPLAN TRILLIUM which has a similar concept.

So on this point we can agree that the skills the Militia currently have are generally up to the task are and will continue to be a useful adjunct to emergency preparedness planning.



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Also, I believe that military first aid has advanced a lot since my day.   Aren't troops being trained to intervene more aggressively when their buddy is wounded alongside them?   It seems to me that I have heard of infanteers being taught to introduce intravenous solutions in the field.    


This is for Regular Force or for soldiers deploying on operations. It is not normally part of Res trg (although it certainly could be if we found time for it...)

On this point humour me and let me assume that it is a priority that will serve troops well in the field and also make them more valuable for emergency response. How many of the 37.5 days are necessary to complete that training and how often does it have to be refreshed?   Is it an insurmountable load?


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Further to the HAZMAT issue, and this would be in keeping with NBC training I would think, how much emphasis should be given to training troops to maintain order in a HAZMAT environment when confronting an angry and frightened and unprotected populace.   For example what happens if another SARS epidemic breaks out and it is decided to quarantine Toronto.   How would we prevent people panicking and leaving?   How would people react to being confronted by troops, even unarmed troops, in Gas Masks and NBC suits telling them to go back

How would you prevent people from panicking and leaving a city with a metropolitan area of over 4million people? I don't know, short of deploying the entire CF and every spare cop you can lay your hands on. You are venturing into the ever controversial issue of using the Res for public order ops. Now, the USARNG does this, and the average level of training of the average USARNG soldier is, as far as I can make out, no better than the average Canadian Army Reserve soldier. For a start, our guys parade much more often. So, in theory this skillset could be taught to our guys. But, again, what unit training do you drop to develop and maintain this skillset? It has to be refreshed regularly or the troops will be a liability rather than an asset. Do you want money spent to buy riot gear or other, more combat-related stuff?

I agree that you won't stop people panicking.   And I agree that you can't seal off every exit out or Metro Toronto.   So where are the choke points that allow you to isolate pockets of contagion and thus prevent transfer to uninfected populations?   Does that mean barricades at the borders and airports (possible)? Securing the Lake Ontario shoreline (possible with troops at marinas, air cover and marine patrols I suppose) and barricades on Highway 11 and the 401?   Thus you isolate Southern Ontario from the rest of Canada.   Maybe you then have to think about putting up barriers around uninfected communities within the containment zone to keep strangers at bay.   There is historical precedent for all of this.   Look to how cholera, typhus, small pox and plague were handled in the past and in Canada.

Yes I am wandering into the controversial area about using the Militia in public order ops.   Is there not need for somebody to be prepared to do the job and if not the Militia then who?   Do the police want the job and are there enough of them?   Do you want the job?   Do we want a separate full time body like some of the Europeans have designed specifically for these type of operations.   My sense is that those forces are universally loathed, seen as instruments of state repression and are expensive to maintain.   Perhaps the Militia, being neighbours and co-workers, would be seen in a more understanding light with greater degree of empathy, and would at least be cheaper to maintain.   Having said that I recognize that historically it has been a problematic area, especially with the Militia having been called out to break strikes, a task that even I find anti-democratic.



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Is there any merit to rethinking the Militia as a body of independent teams along the lines of the RAF Regiment Field Squadrons?   The Field Squadron is a self contained deployable body of about 150 personnel that fields 4 rifle platoons. All platoons are trained in basic infantry tactics, focussed on area defence.   All platoons are trained to do vehicular patrols in Landrovers.   One platoon has additional skills and responsibilities in providing marksmen/snipers and machine gunners, while the fourth platoon is responsible for manning 4x 81mm mortars as the situation demands.   The Squadron has something like 30 to 40 Landrovers and trailers as well as IIRC 11 MLVW type vehicles and a POL vehicle to supply logistic support (including field kitchen) as well as having its own CP and Comms that also includes 4 despatch riders.

OK, but what happens to the role of "augment the Regular Force"? Unless the RegF is composed of similar units, how will we execute this function? For example, how would we augment/repl units of Engrs, Arty, Armour, etc? A few units like this might be of use,   but I would not be in favour of wholesale conversion to this role. unless the Regular Army was to go to a corresponding organization.


OK.   Perhaps we don't need 138 independently deployable infantry companies also capable of doing some light recce work.   I can see that.    Perhaps we maintain the current warfighting focus of each unit but we make each unit a self contained, self deployable entity, complete with its own transportation and A and B echelon support.

That would mean that If the Army needed their services as formed units it could call up the entire entity and plug the whole group into an existing unit without having to figure out where the extra service support was going to come from.

In the meantime the community they serve would have access to an independent unit with the basic soldier skills they are capable of currently acquiring in their 37.5 days.




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The Squadrons could have their current specialized war roles (infantry, lt armd, arty, engr, etc...) but they would also be required to become proficient in the skill sets described above

37.5 days/year: that's what you're up against. What will you cut so you can teach this other skill set?


But haven't we just agreed that the skill sets needed for emergency preparedness are basic soldier skills, which they have and they apparently still find time to become Gunners, crewmen, surveillanc ops and proficient light infantrymen already?





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On the HAZMAT front pbi, there I was wondering if there was a role for the Federal Government to supply funding for Full time CBRN trained teams through the Militia, comprised of Regular personnel and Militia personnel on fulltime Callout (that's C Class isn't it?).   I agree with you that I don't think that Militiamen can be that all-singing all-dancing but suppose each of my Squadrons was equipped with a HAZMAT section on standby, as I said that would be the full-time job of those individuals, perhaps some or all of them could be equipped on a similar basis with an EOD or even CT capability

OK-but I have a hard time thinking about Class C as "Reservists"-they are gap-fillers in Regular establishments.(OK-OK-calm down everybody!!!) I agree with you that once you put a Res soldier   on full time service, you have solved the "time available" issue, but the question in my mind is the employment of the "traditional" Reservist: the Class A, 37.5   days/per year and two weeks in the summer   guy who makes up the overwhelming bulk of our Reserve. IMHO we have to think about roles and missions that make sense for that guy, not for the relatively few Res who can go on Class C.




Here we may be coming to the crux of the matter.   You may have noticed that throughout I have been making reference to the older term Militia as opposed to Reserve.   In keeping with the notion of two forces, one domestic and one expeditionary, I think that it is appropriate to use the distinct term Militia as opposed to Reserve.   It emphasises separateness ( I can hear you now....).   But if there are to be two forces, a concept with which I am generally in agreement, contained within DND then lets make it so.      

Perhaps I should say at this time that I see two different types of forces commonly being called armies.   One is the American style army and the other is what I consider a traditional army, what the Americans would historically have considered a "standing army".   In my view a standing army is an agent of authority, designed to impose order and maintain control over borders and populations.   This army is heavy in infantry and uses light cavalry to conduct patrols to dominate the surrounds.   This type of army was anathema to the Americans as it was to the Brits who left Britain to escape the depradations of that type of force wielded with an over-heavy hand against them.   As I see the American army it is a counter-army, in the sense of counter-recce and counter-battery.   In fact in my view the entire US military structure is designed explicitly to defeat armies.   Its masters historically have had no desire to forge a tool capable of imposing order for fear that it could be used on them selves.   Consequently the American forces are designed to destroy forces in being and eliminate threats.   It is not trained in coercive activity.  

The value of such a force was demonstrated in WW2 and that reinforced the correctness and value of such a position in the American mind.   Other forces also so value in like capability and attempted to emulate it at various levels, all with lesser degrees of success.

Following on from this is the discussion over   Constabulary/Peacekeeping duties.   The notion exists that real armies don't do peacekeeping.   I argue American style counter-armies don't do peacekeeping.   Armies do do peacekeeping.   That is what armies have always done.   Far from an Infanteer being a policeman with a rifle, a policeman is in fact an Infanteer without a gun.   A policeman is an authority figure, a governmental presence that is permitted by society and the operational environment to wander the streets on his own.   He is merely one end of a spectrum that starts with getting out of the LAV, taking off the tin-lid and pointing the weapon at the ground.

With those thoughts in mind I see the need for the government of Canada to have at its beck and call the tools of a traditional army to control the population within its borders and to control its borders.   Because the risks coming from within are relatively low I don't see a need for a large full-time force.   Nor do I see a need at most border crossings for much more than a couple of Mounties with ready access to a Rapid Response Hazmat/EOD team (of whatever size).   I do see a need for beefed up surveillance and control of our approaches and the North and that should be a permanent force.

But some such permanent full-time capabilities, the local ones anyway, not the Northern ones, could be supplied by C Class Militiamen who are employed full time in their community.   Working their shifts but going home to their own beds.   They could be backed up by B Class personnel, also living in their communities but making themselves available for short periods full time thus allowing them to blend Militia service into their home and community lives.   Finally there would be the basic A Class personnel, with their 37.5 days per year (authorized - how many would be willing to make a greater commitment if it were Armoury time as opposed to "Camp" time?) that would available to fan-out like the Volunteer Fire Department (at various levels of Notice to Move).   The local units would also require a permanent "careerist" cadre to direct and administer operations.

The Northern and approach ones will continue to be a Coast Guard and Permanent Force operation augmented to the extent possible by the existing Ranger force.

In this scenario I see the Regular, Expeditionary Force, the Army as opposed to the Militia as being a mixed, deployable force.   It is a combination of both Army and Counter-Army. In its Army role it can be despatched to other countries to offer support to the central authority, thereby offering a valuable service and also learning lessons that could be applicable within Canada at some point in the future. To this end I agree that the free flow of Militia and Army personnel and sub-units is both necessary and mutually beneficial.   The Army should also be a Counter-Army and this is where it should concentrate its   focus.   Others would call it warfighting. It should prepare itself as a deployable force that can destroy other organized forces that are a threat to the Militia-type Armies responsible for maintaining order.   This mutual interaction between the Army and the Militia, practiced at home and abroad could also be used to broaden Canada's influence and for that matter support a higher rank structure.   Suppose Canada were to supply a "Counter-Army" Battle Group and an "Army" battle group in support of a peacekeeping mission.   Could we add a couple of locally raised and Canadian financed and trained battalions under Canadian operational control and thus justify a Canadian Brigade and Brigadier.   If we got a couple of allies to supply "Army" battle groups   that would support their own local battalions could we justify a Canadian led division and a Major-General?   The primary focus of the Expeditionary Army in this case would be the "Counter-Army" Battle Group, Command and Control, ISTAR and Logistic support.   The "Army" Battle Group would also be an Expeditionary Force element but it could be heavily augmented by Militiamen on voluntary Class B and C callouts from their units and their training working with their local civil authorities and populations would be directly applicable to their temporary voluntary expeditionary duties.

In essence I see the part-time soldier as a Militiaman first, a part-time volunteer offering service to his home community first, and a Reservist, "gap-filler" for the Regs, second.   If there are "gaps" in the Reg structure then they need to be filled first, perhaps even at the expense of capabilities.

However, in my world of the tooth-fairy and Santa Claus, I would like to think that we could add some more money to support a fairly broad range of capabilities without gaps.



Quote
I agree with you that the Militia shouldn't end up being divorced from the Regs.   There should be a free flow of personnel between the Militia and the Regs.   But perhaps, in assigning war roles we could start by looking at domestic needs, deciding what we need to do locally, then looking at some of those skills and asking if it is not appropriate for the Regs to ask the Militia to supply those skills when necessary to augment the expeditionary force.   Those skills that the Militia do not supply, either through lack of domestic need or it being unreasonable to expect any great degree of proficiency then those are the skills that will need to be held in the Regular forces.


I suggest that is designing an Army backwards. Maybe what Canada needs is a volunteer Civil Defense Service, like we had in the 1950s, to concentrate on disaster skills to augnment the civil authorities. You would probably attract people who want to serve, but don't want to be in the military. Then we could focus our very limited training time and resources on training our soldiers for operations, while retaining an approriate "last resort" or "immediate life and limb" response capability much as we have now.

And here we disagree.   I would argue that the primary role of the government is to defend its citizenry.   That means that first off they need to evaluate the threat and respond to the threat then organize their forces around the threat.   Skills and capacities necessary to counter the threat, that are surplus to immediate requirements can be put at the beck and call of Department of Foreign Affairs to secure advantage in the national interest.


 
By the way, with respect to equipping our Militia force I am fascinated by the prospects of fielding hybrid diesel-electric versions of LSVW/MLVW type vehicles, maybe based on the Pinzgauer and Stewart&Stevenson type trucks.

These trucks, which have already been field tested by S&S amongst others combine diesel engines,   generators, large battery packs and electrically driven wheels.   Batteries or the generators power the wheels while the battery pack is charged by the gen and the gen is driven by the diesel.   These vehicles apparently have demonstrated some gas savings but strangely some of their biggest savings come in maintenance.   There are no gears to crunch.    Some armies are looking at them because they supply a lot of electricity on a battlefield that is becoming more dependent on electricity. They also present tactical advantages in the form of silent watch and silent movement, running off the batteries.

However, in addition to military utility I could perhaps see some civil defence uses:

Plugging into a gas station to run the pumps to get the fuel out of the underground tanks.
Plugging into a police station/fire station/city hall to establish command and control
Plugging into a cell phone tower to reestablish communications.
Plugging into a hospital to get its triage/operating rooms and ICUs back on line
Plugging into municipal water treatment and sewage plants to meet those most critical needs
Supplying power to commercially available water pumps to fight forest fires and urban fires.

And all the time the Militia has a tactical vehicle capable of being used for patrols, logistic support, heavy weapons support and capable of being employed overseas with tactical utility in support of the Expeditionary Force and the National Interest.

Cheers.

http://www.ssss.com/Home/Products/HybridSolutions/
http://www.ssss.com/Home/Products/TacticalVehicles/FMTV/SpecsBrochures.htm?pm=160
http://www.army-technology.com/contractors/vehicles/stewart_stevenson/
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=DATADETR.story&STORY=/www/story/02-23-2004/0002114401&EDATE=MON+Feb+23+2004%2C+08%3A30+AM
http://www.pinzgauer.uk.com/   (NOTE THE PATROL VARIANT DEAD CENTRE - Kirkhill)
http://www.pinzgauer.uk.com/Specifications.htm
http://www.pinzgauer.uk.com/Gallery.htm
http://www.operations.mod.uk/veritas/img/veritas/45cdogp/buzzard_vehpatrol.jpg

For that matter maybe municipalities should be buying buses with these systems....less gas and pollution? less maintenance? emergency movement of population? and mobile generators.

If they work as advertised.  However I have no reason to doubt they would.  The technology has been used on trains for more than 40 years, ships of all types have used it for at least the last 20 years and the American Navy is planning to use it in the "Electric" ships.  Basically what is different know is that controls and components are smaller and less costly.
 
With regards to the Militia Brigade Groups:  I'm not sure what the Militia restructuring has in order, but how about organizing the Militia into battle groups, as opposed to the present under-strength brigade groups.  I propose 11 battle groups, 4 in Ontario, 2 in Quebec and 1 each to BC, AB, SK, MB and the Maritimes.  Each battle group would be maintained at full strength and could train as a light infantry battle group.  In the very unlikely event of National Mobilization these battle groups could expand to brigade groups just as easily as the present brigade groups can be brought up to strength.  With each battle group having 800-900 troops at full strength, this means less than 10,000 troops in total.  You could group these battle groups into a brigade (area) HQ if you wanted, which would be mobilized into a division HQ. 

I will use the Manitoba Battle Group as an example:
Battle Group Headquarters
Royal Winnipeg Rifles - Infantry Company 
Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada - Infantry Company
Royal Winnipeg Grenadiers - Infantry Company
Fort Garry Horse - DFSV/Recce Squadron
26th Field Battery, RCA (mortar troop, towed 105mm troop, air defence section)
22nd Field Engineer Troop
17 Service Company
17 Medical Platoon (attach it to service company)

Each sub-unit would be fully manned.  In the event of national mobilization the battle group headquarters would be the cadre for expansion to a brigade headquarters.  Each light infantry company would expand to a battalion.  This provides the cadre for the battalion.  The company commander & headquarters would become the battalion commander and headquarters.  Each platoon commander and platoon warrant would become the company commander and CSM.  Section commanders would become platoon warrants.  Section 2i/c would become section commanders, this would provide one experience section commander in each of the new platoons.  The same would be true for the armour, artillery and engineer sub-units.  The service company would act as the administration company of the light infantry battalion providing Role 1 CSS, however it would expand to become the brigade service battalion upon mobilization.  The supply & transport platoon would become a supply & tranport company, maintenance platoon would become the maintanence company, etc.  The same is true for the medical platoon, it will provide the UMS for the battalion but it would expand into a full field ambulance unit or medical company upon mobilization.  The battle groups Regimental Police section would expand into the brigade Military Police platoon, etc. 

If you read my earlier post on this topic I proposed four Reg Force Canadian Medium Brigade Groups divided into four Joint Task Forces each also having an Air Expeditionary Wing, a Command Support Regiment, an attached Maritime Task Group and a General Support Group.  Many of the General Support Group units would come from the Reserves.  Therefore, I would propose four General Support Battalions, one per Miliita brigade/area.  Each capable of supporting a Reg Force Joint Task Force.  The battalions would be deployed on operational tours more often than other Militia units, but it would be augmented with soldiers from all battle group service companies for deployments.  I would also have eight Civil-Military Affairs Platoons, four CBRN Platoons, four Light Air Defence Batteries (MANPADS & 35mm guns), eight Advanced Surgical Centres (small 60-bed surgical hospital organized identical to USMC surgical company with 182 personnel), four Military Police Companies, four Engineer Support Regiments (each tasked with one of the four independent Reg Force engineer support squadrons I proposed as part of the General Support Groups).  These combat support, combat service support and health service support units would be highly effective in peace support operations as well as at home in Canada in the event of a nature disaster or terrorist attack. 

This would obviously require an enthusiastic recruitment drive, especially in the area of medical professionals.   
 
A few rather random thoughts:

"¢ As whiskey 601 (I, personally, prefer whisky but there's no accounting for tastes) said elsewhere: "What the Navy probably hasn't planned on is being shoved off by those who erroneously view the Navy's sole purpose as being reduced to hauling a few army trucks and Griffons around and labelling that role as "jointness.""   Too true - the Navy, uniquely, has the task of independent power projection - independent because it can do the job without local supporting bases.   A joint Navy/Air task force - land based long range patrol aircraft, land based fighter/bombers flying CAP and a strong surface force represents a major 'statement' by the country which deploys it.   Canada needs this capability and appropriate naval and air forces have to be earmarked for it.   It may be that a joint naval/air task force will have an army (amphibious) component added but readers are reminded that amphibious operations are naval operations and naval commanders do not 'chop' their land forces to a local, ashore commander until the naval commander is fully satisfied that the land/air forces put ashore can survive in their own;

"¢ The Air Force, also uniquely, has some single service roles: airborne and space based surveillance, warning and control, for example, and theatre air defence; some nations put most threatre level air defence assets - even missiles - in the air force and most make air-space management, including air defence management, a task of the theatre air commander.   Appropriate air forces must be assigned to continental air defence; and

"¢ Our reserves have a number of tasks - resting, refitting and retraining between missions, aid to [of] the civil power, civil assistance (floods, fires, etc) which is quite a different thing, providing formed units for home defence (as the Navy Reserve does), training, providing individual augmentees, providing the national mobilization base, etc, etc, etc.   It is wrong, I think, to try to pigeon hole them into a few roles.

All that being said, we are not a major league country - not like the USA or China or even France, but we are a Triple A country and we need Triple A armed forces (with apologies to Kent Foster from whom I pilfered this idea about 25 or 30 years ago):

Appropriate for one of the world's top ten nations (by any sensible measure).   That includes being Available, too.   Having forces is wasteful unless some - enough - are trained, equipped and ready to deploy whenever and wherever needed;

Adaptable - all this planning, in Ottawa and here in cyberspace, by experts and amateurs alike - in both places, is guaranteed, 100%, to be wrong.   The forces we build and maintain must be flexible in structure, equipment, doctrine/training, etc so that they can adapt, quickly and effectively (and efficiently, too) to the situations which will, really, obstain; and

Affordable.   I guesstimate that we need to double, plus, the defence budget (to $20+ Billion/2% of GDP - which is about $1 Trillion, now) to get anything like appropriate, available and adaptable forces - and I guesstimate that we need to do that fairly soon and fairly quickly, say four or five big, big increments.   But, big BUT: I think another $8-12 Billion is easily found.

 
Beside also preferring whisky sans "e" (preferably malt, and preferably Islay) I have to agree that the Army tends to consider joint to mean support the Army. however, the Navy has some institutional bias that needs to be overcome as well (i.e. how does one provide NGFS with a 57mm direct-fire cannon).

Nit: space-based surveillance isn't an Air Force role/task. it is national, and very purple.

I somewhat agree with Kirkhill's description of the difference between a Militia and a Reserve force. The latter, by definition, carries a role of augmenting the Regular (expeditionary) force, while the former implies home defence. The fact that we have essentially been expeditionary for a century aside, I think we need to re-examine the Army reserve more critically than we have been. Can we afford the expense of "community relations" benefits at the expense of truly effective and deployable augmentation of today's Regular Army? (This is the "do we need so many Regiments, with the regimental infrastructure, to provide ptes and 2lts to the regular force?" argument).

Finally, I do agree that we are underfunded for what we truly need these days, though I would feel more comfortable if the politicians would step up and, as they are mandated to do, define our arcs. However, it's evident that the people are more accepting of the words as they do not understand the actions. To whit: a politician can say "multi-purpose, combat capable" and the roles will nod sagely. If the same pol says "peacekeeping constabulary" the people will be agitated, as it implies a lack of concern for their own defence. This is where political leadership is supposed to come into play - interpret and apply what the people desire, without dinking around with semantics.

Acorn
 
Regarding the "Field Squadron" idea, it is very good, very adaptable and very doable. Each reserve unit has a particular "wartime" mission and is tasked to provide some small sub sub-unit of trained soldiers to do the job, leaving a large fraction of the unit less than gainfully employed. I will use the Armoured reserve as an example, to make this clear.

Windsor Regiment, and 1H are to provide a formed 8 car recce troop, and are provided enough equipment (Illtis, for now), to do this. Each unit has far more soldiers than are needed to supply the troop, and in the near future, retention may become an issue, especially for new soldiers fresh from DP01 training who are now "on the bench" while the senior soldiers do troop training.

If these DP01 soldiers were formed into the "Field Squadron" (or even a reinforced Field Troop), they would have a role and mission while waiting for trades training to become available. Senior soldiers could also be rotated from the Armoured Recce Troop into the Field Squadron organization to allow others to gain or refresh their Armoured skills, and learn some new skills of their own. The Combat Arms units can be quicklly adapted to this new structure, while support and service support arms might not benifit as much (although a Field Squadron might make a good light convoy escort force for CSS units).
 
Acorn said:
Beside also preferring whisky sans "e" (preferably malt, and preferably Islay) I have to agree that the Army tends to consider joint to mean support the Army. however, the Navy has some institutional bias that needs to be overcome as well (i.e. how does one provide NGFS with a 57mm direct-fire cannon).

Acorn

In all fairness, it's not the Navy's fault they don't have NGFS. Most countries don't these days if you're talking about guns specifically. The days of the Battleship and her 12" guns are long gone. If you're talking Tomahawks and other SSM's, then you need a bigger ship than a frigate. The Navy only has funding for 3 destroyers, the 4th is indefinitely tied up in Victoria. Not to mention that they're 30 years old. You can blame the lack of NGFS on the government for not giving that capability to the Navy.

Cheers
 
Kirkhill: Whew! Where to start? Ok-let me try:

OK so the basic skills that I suggested are skills that Militiamen currently have.  So the basic training plan and career development plan works and works reasonably well within the context of 37.5 days per year.  Is that a fair statement?  Would it also be a fair statement that the skills described above are basic "soldier" skills and would be common to all trades, whether infanteer or EME? Especially in an environment where it has been suggested by others that the "tail" needs to be hardened.

Yes-the Res system works fairly well as long as it has a narrow focus. It's critical limitation is time(not really money, as some would have us think), which confronts the Res with what amounts to almost a zero-sum game: if you add this, you must drop or cut that.Yes-I agree that these skills form a useful backbone for employability. Strangely, Res CSS are more "hardened" in the sense that they are always Army: they are not "purple" as many RegF CSS are. A Res sup tech will be an Army sup tech her whole career. A RegF sup tech may serve all over the place, most of it perhaps not in the Army field operations environment.

So on this point we can agree that the skills the Militia currently have are generally up to the task are and will continue to be a useful adjunct to emergency preparedness planning.

Yes-we are there now and the situation is improving.

On this point humour me and let me assume that it is a priority that will serve troops well in the field and also make them more valuable for emergency response. How many of the 37.5 days are necessary to complete that training and how often does it have to be refreshed?  Is it an insurmountable load?

I don't know how many days are required, but it is normally taught initially during entry-level DP1 trg, then refreshed occasionally during the training year. My suggestion would be to teach combat first aid and lifesaving from the get-go, and build lifesaving into all field training events.

Yes I am wandering into the controversial area about using the Militia in public order ops.  Is there not need for somebody to be prepared to do the job and if not the Militia then who?  Do the police want the job and are there enough of them?  ....  Having said that I recognize that historically it has been a problematic area, especially with the Militia having been called out to break strikes, a task that even I find anti-democratic.

Yes-there is a need for public order to be maintained. Normally, we assume that it will be maintained by the civil police at the municipal level. If this is inadequate, the municipal police can be reinforced by other municipal police, by the Provincial Police (OPP, SQ, contract RCMP) and finally by the national RCMP resources. Calling out the Army for public order must be regarded as an absolute last resort. If the military is to be called out to assist in maintaining public order, a very high level of weapons handling, C2, discipline and situational awareness are necessary to avoid needless slaughter  or further loss of control of the situation. This is why this task in Canada, since WWI, has largely been the responsibility of the Regular Army combat arms units.(I think you will find that the military response to the Nanaimo Coal Strike, the Cape Breton Coal Strike, the London Factory Strike, the Winnipeg General Strike, etc consisted largely of Permanent Force units and RCMP, with some NPAM in support) Regular non-combat arms units have not traditionaly been considered capable, although I would argue that the Navy's boarding parties today probably have the requisite levels of training. Reserve units have traditionally been considered as too poorly trained, and to have the additional vulnerability of possibly being subject to revenge by disaffected locals once the uniforms come off.  However, as a Res soldier in the mid-1970s we took it on ourselves in our unit (RRegtC) to do some riot training (we built the batons and shields) and we produced a squad that, according to one Toronto Police officer in the unit, was as good as the Toronto unit at that time. How did we do it? We had time. Why did we have time? Because in those days, as far as training went, units did pretty much what they wanted to do. There was no serious thought of using large numbers of Reserve soldiers on any operation, deployed or domestic, so the Res fiddled about doing largely whatever it wanted to. Those days are gone (under a number of pressures) and will not return. Time remains the critical factor.

OK.  Perhaps we don't need 138 ....would have access to an independent unit with the basic soldier skills they are capable of currently acquiring in their 37.5 days.

Roger that.

But haven't we just agreed that the skill sets needed for emergency preparedness are basic soldier skills, which they have and they apparently still find time to become Gunners, crewmen, surveillanc ops and proficient light infantrymen already?

You have confused me a bit (perhaps by juxtaposing the Qs and As differently...), but yes, you are right ..............(senses ambush.............)

Here we may be coming to the crux of the matter.....However, in my world of the tooth-fairy and Santa Claus, I would like to think that we could add some more money to support a fairly broad range of capabilities without gaps.

You have advanced quite a lengthy and  complex set of arguments. In reduction, my responses are:

One Army, with one Army Reserve focused on combat operations but with inherent capability for domestic ops on a "last resort" basis-this is what we can afford. It has taken us years to break down the fences of mutual hostility that have traditionally existed between the two parts of the Army (to the extent we have been able.....) IMHO this idea risks creating yet another "class";

Enforcement of public order to remain in the hands of the police, with the RCMP having a "heavy" element such as the Carabinieri, Gendarmerie or GSG to handle more dangerous situations, thus absolutely reducing those occasions in which we will be required to use force against our own citizens. The Army to come out as a last resort, but to come out properly trained and equipped so as to avoid unnecessary killing; and

the US does peacekeeping and nation building-they are doing it right here and now in Afghanistan, using  Regular Army, Army Reserve and National Guard forces including both conventional and SF forces. They are transitioning back and forth to combat ops as required.It's quite interesting and blows our Canadian stereotypes out the window.

And here we disagree.  I would argue that the primary role of the government is to defend its citizenry.  That means that first off they need to evaluate the threat and respond to the threat then organize their forces around the threat.  Skills and capacities necessary to counter the threat, that are surplus to immediate requirements can be put at the beck and call of Department of Foreign Affairs to secure advantage in the national interest.

Yes-I agree-but "defend its citizenry" does not IMHO mean "have the Army do everybody else's jobs for them". The Fire Dept defends the citizenry, as do the Police, the Customs Service, the Weather Service, the Coast Guard and environmental protection agencies. The right tool for the right job. Two examples of how we have progressed in this area in Canada are prison response and EOD. At one time (not that long ago, actually...) both of these situations would have probably involved the military if they went beyond a relatively insignificant state. Today, most police forces of any size have their own EOD (or access to Regional EOD) and the idea of military prison intervention has dwindled drastically as CSC and various LEAs have greatly improved their response capabilities. This improvement has not happened across the board in every capability area, and we may still be called upon in extremis, but IMHO that is how it should be kept: in extremis not as a a default.

Cheers.
 
Inch said:
In all fairness, it's not the Navy's fault they don't have NGFS. Most countries don't these days if you're talking about guns specifically. The days of the Battleship and her 12" guns are long gone. If you're talking Tomahawks and other SSM's, then you need a bigger ship than a frigate. The Navy only has funding for 3 destroyers, the 4th is indefinitely tied up in Victoria. Not to mention that they're 30 years old. You can blame the lack of NGFS on the government for not giving that capability to the Navy.

Yes, the gov't bears some blame, but the Navy decided to eliminate the 5" gun for a 76mm AA weapon. The Navy bears some of the blame, just as the Army beasrs some of the blame for the way tanks seem to be going the way of the dino.

Acorn
 
Boydfish I generally like what you are saying but why do you specify 30 days of independent operations?  Is it not likely that a supply line could be opened in less time than that?  The options are road, rail, sea, fixed wing and helo.  Does your planning suggest that all links will be severed completely for that length of time?

A couple of different reasons and factors come into play.

First, no, there is no certainty that the supply lines will be open in 30 days, especially if we're talking about the dreaded biological incident. 

Second, I also like the idea of being effectively able to "wait out the storm".  As one example, there are different scopes and scales of disasters.  An earthquake is a pretty local event, but if you look at the biggest disaster response in North America in the last twenty years, September 11th wins it, hands down.  The entire North American continent went to an essential war footing overnight.  If the CF needs to mobilize every reserve unit for local operations, how fast can the CF re-supply those units if they need to re-supply everybody.

Third, remember that log train that I'm going to latch onto as much as possible?  For every Herc load of supply for the reserve units that they don't need, I can bring in "stuff".  As well, for medevac purposes, freeing up flights so I can fling 100 "walking wounded" to Foothills rather than having them patched up locally is a "good thing".

current system requires the logistics train to move out to the AOR, which might be problematic in some cases, especially in light of the 12hr time-line (I would have thought 24 myself). If the 12hr figure is a "given", then part of the restructuring will have to be pre-packing and pre-positioning supplies in armouries and depots to keep a unit up and running for several days to a week.

The 12 hour time line is so that the logistics are in place by the 24 hour mark.  Once you have the team on the field and aimed in the right direction in 12 hours, the front line medical staff that ate the initial wave are either a)Dead(I'm not kidding, if we're talking a bioevent, they're either dead or infected and thus likely to die and cannot be used for further treatement options.) or b) In dire need of a break.  As well, the call for assistance is likely to take upwards of 4 hours to make, so even if we hit the 12 hour mark, the "event" likely happened over 16 hours ago.

Expenses for implementing this system should be picked up by either the emergency management system, or by the Provincial Solicitor-General's office, since they are the outfits which will call for military assistance.

I'd go one step further.  Offer to have the CF reserves take over the entire PEP mandate(And budget), providing SAR and other emergency responsibilities.

My point here, and I stand to be corrected or proven wrong, is that on the medical front, in the event of a major disaster in the lower mainland, given the number of medically qualified personnel and the dispersal of hospitals in the area I feel that it will be more effective to get undamaged and least damaged facilities back on line with emergency power and water, then transport patients and staff to the facilities that are "up".

Hospitals in the Lower Mainland are, in varying degrees, essentially self-sufficient.  VGH has two giant D/E generator sets, plus a backup D/E set with bunkers to run 30 days enough to light up the whole facility.  Others...are not so well prepared.

I'd strongly suggest that moving patients is done at the very end, right when you are pulling the plug on the hospital and abandoning it forever.  Generally speaking, you will lose 25%-50% of your patients in an evac move.

Perhaps the local medical community and reserves should become familiarized with each other. Not to mention police, fire and SAR.

You really don't want to know what the medical community expects out of the reserves/CF.  To explain that, BC uses a common disaster management system at all levels and locations.  This system was designed and developed in the wake of the Oakland earthquake in the late '80's.  The planning framework expects the CF and the reserves to provide a response equal to the California National Guard capabilities.  No matter how you try to explain to executives that the CF in total isn't the size of the CNG, let alone what they're going to be able to get to BC.

Now you understand why I got the hell out of that job before the "main event"?

While you are most likely correct in thinking the field hospital would only be a drop in the bucket over-all, I can see a scenario where the hospital operates close to the disaster area as the triage centre, quickly stabilizing patients and then getting them whisked away to operational hospitals outside the zone.

Yep.

I would be opposed to depriving the Regular Army of a valuable and necessary augmentation base by converting the entire Army Reserve to nothing but Home Guard(or Home Defense, or WTH you want to call it...) Our Regular Army is simply too small and too shallow, and likely will be for some time to come, to sever itself from an effective augmentation base. I agree that Res units can and should be assigned some local security roles, but these must be realistic and achievable and must not detract from combat training: there is simply not enough time to do everything.

I might be repeating what have already been suggested to a degree, but if we can have two armies, why can't we have three armies?  A regular force, a reserve/augmentation army and a "territorial army"?  You could even have the reserve and territorials work closely together, even sharing armory space(ex. the Reserves parade on Tuesdays and the Territorials parade on Thursdays).

If that is the case I can't help but think that boydfish would not look ungratefully on a formed uniformed body, in vehicles that can handle floods, slides, debris fields and broken roads, capable of extracting the uninjured, offering first aid where appropriate and communicating with the limited EMS personnel as to where they are needed.  All the time their presence in uniform, possibly with side arms would act as a stabilizing force and help to lend an air of security.

As I said before, if I have to feed it, forget it.  In general at disasters, the community reaction is generally positive and helpful.  People self-dig and pitch in quickly.

Maybe what Canada needs is a volunteer Civil Defense Service, like we had in the 1950s, to concentrate on disaster skills to augnment the civil authorities. You would probably attract people who want to serve, but don't want to be in the military. Then we could focus our very limited training time and resources on training our soldiers for operations, while retaining an approriate "last resort" or "immediate life and limb" response capability much as we have now.

Got my vote for that.  Big time.
 
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