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What Should the Army's Role, Capabilities & Structure Be?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Yard Ape
  • Start date Start date
George Wallace said:
AIC_2K5  

I don't know what your experience is, but it really doesn't show as being much in your post.  
Once again; I would like to know your credentials.  You don't seem to really have the knowledge to be playing the role you are here.  If you are a Gamer, you truly have no concept of what you are talking about.  You actually have no knowledge of what facilites the CF really has.  You have deconstructed and reconstructed Brigades and moved them about the Country on what appears to be a pure whim.  Real Life is not like that.

Your statement: "But then take into account the support units. I don't think anyone can argue that they can honestly see an entire Canadian Army brigade, as a formation, on a future battlefield. It's not realistic. But I think it can be with this structure. Replace old large brigade with smaller, faster, more technology-oriented and more powerful brigade." is udder crap.  The Canadian Army will have to be prepared to fight. and fight as a Bde Formation in the future.  You seem to look at us as "Peacekeepers" and off on NATO or UN Taskings on a small scale.  I am also amazed that you haven't heard of Murphy's Law in your concept of a more technology-oriented and powerful brigade. 

Again, fill out your profile, and give some credentials, before you become CDS.
 
Army

1 Canadian task force
1 cmbg
2cmbg
3cmbg

2 Canadian task force
4 cmbg
5cmbg
6cmbg

Units of cmbg
-2 mech battalion-could easily be used as light infantry
-1 light battalion
1 tank regiment
-3 squadrons of 20 tanks
- 1 recce squadron
1 arty regiment
-3 batteries of SP 155mm guns
1 engineer regiment
1 squadron of 10 attack Helios
logistic units

Navy

1 pacific task force
Not sure about what kinds of ships make up task force so wont try but at least 1 aircraft carrier.
1 atlantic task force
same as pacific

Airforce

3 air task forces
Units

4 squadrons of 18 Cf 18's each

Transportation- whatever needed


new at things like this so easy on me.  all we need is money and troops,sailors,pilots. also put back the royal in our name i.e rcaf,rcn, and Canadian army
 
scottishcanuck said:
also put back the royal in our name i.e rcaf,rcn, and Canadian army

I believe that the King/Queen awards certain organizations the Royal monicker, correct me if Im wrong. I.E.
 
I have locked this topic, because we now have people who have just joined this site without reading the rules, have no experience, and have not read any of the topics and information on this site. 
 
I find this to be a very interesting discussion and would love to contribute but seeing as I don't HAVE a lane to be in any comments I might have are automatically OUTSIDE my lane.  That being said I guess I have nothing to lose but my head by throwing my own comment/question out there.

Are we creating more problems than we are solving by trying hard to stick to the existing Branch, Division, Brigade, Battalion template that we already have instead of creating something new that better suits our need. 

Could we create a formation that looks "something" like this:

1 x CCV Infantry Company
2 x LAV Infantry Companies
2 x Light Infantry Companies (using light wheeled vehicles)
1 x Medium Lift Helicopter Sqn (Chinook)
1 x Utility Helicopter Sqn (Griffon)
1 x Tank Sqn (Leopard)
2 x Recce/Surveilance Sqn (?/Coyote)
1 x Artillery Unit
1 x Engineer Unit

A Battle Group deployed from this unit could be be configured in any possible combination of ways...the CCV Coy and both LAV Coy's with the Tank Sqn for heavy combat operations...2 Lav Coys
and a Light Coy....1 LAV Coy and 2 Light Coys....whatever.  Don't get picky about what the exact make-up of each sub-unit is or what they are equipped with...it's just the general concept for a more flexible parent unit with rough "examples" given.

Once the required "mix" is determined and deployed for the operation the remaining two Coys could begin work-up training to "convert" to match the deployed Coy types. 

How would this work in practice?  I'm not sure.  It would certainly mean fewer total Battalions (would they still be called that?).  Would these be new amalagamated units or would they be composites of existing Infantry/Armoured/Artillery/Engineer Regiments?  How would/could the component units be co-located...or how would logistical support be affected?

Maybe this isn't the right approach...but on the other hand maybe the old framework we're trying to cling to might possibly be part of the problem?


 
GR66 said:
I find this to be a very interesting discussion and would love to contribute but seeing as I don't HAVE a lane to be in any comments I might have are automatically OUTSIDE my lane.  That being said I guess I have nothing to lose but my head by throwing my own comment/question out there.

Are we creating more problems than we are solving by trying hard to stick to the existing Branch, Division, Brigade, Battalion template that we already have instead of creating something new that better suits our need. 

Could we create a formation that looks "something" like this:

1 x CCV Infantry Company
2 x LAV Infantry Companies
2 x Light Infantry Companies (using light wheeled vehicles)
1 x Medium Lift Helicopter Sqn (Chinook)
1 x Utility Helicopter Sqn (Griffon)
1 x Tank Sqn (Leopard)
2 x Recce/Surveilance Sqn (?/Coyote)
1 x Artillery Unit
1 x Engineer Unit

A Battle Group deployed from this unit could be be configured in any possible combination of ways...the CCV Coy and both LAV Coy's with the Tank Sqn for heavy combat operations...2 Lav Coys
and a Light Coy....1 LAV Coy and 2 Light Coys....whatever.  Don't get picky about what the exact make-up of each sub-unit is or what they are equipped with...it's just the general concept for a more flexible parent unit with rough "examples" given.

Once the required "mix" is determined and deployed for the operation the remaining two Coys could begin work-up training to "convert" to match the deployed Coy types. 

How would this work in practice?  I'm not sure.  It would certainly mean fewer total Battalions (would they still be called that?).  Would these be new amalagamated units or would they be composites of existing Infantry/Armoured/Artillery/Engineer Regiments?  How would/could the component units be co-located...or how would logistical support be affected?

Maybe this isn't the right approach...but on the other hand maybe the old framework we're trying to cling to might possibly be part of the problem?

You have something like ten sub-units under one CO, along with two airforce units that are each unit sized. Its a span of control nightmare before even considering the mixture of branches. The Brigade Group structure works just fine.

Have you waded through the Optimal Battle Group thread http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/62540.0.html?

 
Tango2Bravo said:
You have something like ten sub-units under one CO, along with two airforce units that are each unit sized. Its a span of control nightmare before even considering the mixture of branches. The Brigade Group structure works just fine.

Have you waded through the Optimal Battle Group thread http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/62540.0.html?

I certainly have waded through that thread.  I'm simply throwing the question out there of whether the overarching structures we're dealing with are hindering our ability to be both flexible and "Joint"? 

Are the control issues you mention AUTOMATICALLY going to happen when you mix units with different functions into a larger grouping, or are those problems simply due to trying to mix them together without also changing the way those units are organized at a higher level?

The CF has been "unified" from a separate Army, Navy and Air Force...but has it really become a "Joint" force?  Will adjusting organizational charts at the Company, Battalion, Regimental or Brigade level get us where people feel we need to be to be truly effective or does there need to be a more fundamental change in the way we think at a much higher level for that to happen?

 
GR66 said:
I certainly have waded through that thread.  I'm simply throwing the question out there of whether the overarching structures we're dealing with are hindering our ability to be both flexible and "Joint"? 

Are the control issues you mention AUTOMATICALLY going to happen when you mix units with different functions into a larger grouping, or are those problems simply due to trying to mix them together without also changing the way those units are organized at a higher level?

The CF has been "unified" from a separate Army, Navy and Air Force...but has it really become a "Joint" force?  Will adjusting organizational charts at the Company, Battalion, Regimental or Brigade level get us where people feel we need to be to be truly effective or does there need to be a more fundamental change in the way we think at a much higher level for that to happen?

Are you saying that we are not effective right now? Being Joint doesn't mean that I have to be in a Joint unit.

Even if all the sub-units in your unit were of the same branch, having ten sub-units under one commander is very unwieldy. What are you trying to achieve that cannot be done with our CMBG structure?

 
Although span of control certainly is an important issue, I would be more worried about two other issues:

1. specialization and training; and

2. utility.

The Army "groups for battle" so that units often look rather like GR66's model. But there is a problem: it (the Army) only spends a small percentage of its time in battle. Most units spend most of their time doing individual and team training. Experience suggests that specialized (armoured or infantry or engineer) units are best suited for individual and team training. There is, to be sure, a major requirement for larger, combined arms or all arms, team training n but the same experience suggests this is easy enough to organize on an ad hoc basis.

Some units, the helicopters units, can fill many, many missions for many, many customers over a wide geographic area and in limited times. Aviation is a very flexible resource. Generally, for utility reasons, they are grouped with other similar aviation units to maximize their flexibility.

My  :2c:
 
In its entirety from the Lexington Institute via defense-aerospace.com:

The Last Army Standing


(Source: Lexington Institute; issued April 18, 2013)


(© Lexington Institute; reproduced by permission)



What is the value to the United States of the Army? This is a question which the Chief of Staff, General Odierno, and senior uniformed and civilian leaders of this venerable organization are having trouble answering.

They have experimented with a number of different arguments. For example, they assert that people and governments live and work on land and it is on land that you will have the greatest possibility to influence their behavior in peace or war. Forward deployed Army units demonstrate a national commitment, provide an opportunity for engagement with foreign militaries, elites and populations in ways that air and naval forces cannot and build a valuable knowledge base about foreign countries.

When it comes to the role of the Army in war, they argue that all violent conflicts are clashes of will and the best way of impacting the adversary’s will is to seize his territory. A related point is that only ground forces can ensure a decisive outcome to a conflict; nations and non-state actors alike have demonstrated an ability to withstand protracted air strikes and naval operations. The ultimate deterrent short of nuclear weapons is the threat of occupation and regime change.

So far, none of these arguments appear to be clinching the deal.

The most powerful strategic argument for the U.S. Army may simply be this: it is the last army standing in the Western World. Economics teaches us that scarcity tends to increase the value of a good. Large, capable, expeditionary land forces are becoming a scarce commodity.

In the two decades since the end of the Cold War, the land forces of the Western powers have withered to the point of near irrelevance. The German Army has shrunk from around 500,000 when the Berlin Wall fell to some 180,000 today. Even at this number, Germany has had difficulty deploying as few as 10,000 soldiers to Afghanistan.

Britain’s legendary thin red line has become almost gossamer. From a Cold War strength of 225,000 with an entire armored corps deployed in Germany, the British Army is scheduled by 2020 to shrink to 127,000 of which only 89,000 will be Regulars. The French Army has declined by nearly the same amount, from 236,000 in 1992 to only 107,000 today. The Dutch Army recently sold all of its tanks. The only NATO land force of substantial size is the Turkish Army of 400,000. It is ironic that the next time the gates of Vienna need to be defended, it could require Turkish troops.

Elsewhere in the world the situation is much the same. There are few serious armies and none with the capacity to deploy much beyond their own borders.

The Japanese Ground Self Defense Forces have never numbered more than 150,000. The big kid on the block, so to speak, is the army of the Republic of Korea, at 500,000. But it is focused solely on the threat from the North. Australian land forces, albeit small, have traditionally punched above their weight, operating side by side with the United States Army from Vietnam to Afghanistan. One reason the United States is interested in closer military ties with India and Vietnam is because these countries are land powers.

U.S allies are investing in air and naval forces. This is a good thing. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program already has eight international partners with additional countries such as Israel, Japan and South Korea lining up to buy the new fighter. The Libyan operation demonstrated how far our NATO allies had come in their ability to conduct a protracted air campaign. Great Britain is building two new aircraft carriers and a fleet of advanced attack submarines. Japan already has several Aegis missile defense capable destroyers. What they are not doing is matching these steps with investments in ground forces.

A robust, flexible and expeditionary Army provides the United States with a unique strategic instrument. The reason for this is because there are serious and growing dangers in the world not only from rogue states and violent non-state actors but as a consequence of natural and man-made phenomena.

For allies and friends confronted by threats to their territory, populations and governments, the U.S. commitment to their security is enhanced by an ability to quite literally stand shoulder-to-shoulder with their armies. For adversaries there is the political as well as military value in a force that literally can come to their neighborhoods and dig them out of their spider holes. For populations, including our own, suffering from earthquakes, tsunamis, storms and major infrastructure failures, the Army’s ability to provide water, power, communications, transportation and engineering support cannot be minimized.

Before we allow it to become like those of our European allies, we should consider the value of having the last Army standing.


(EDITOR’S NOTE: This reasoning sounds good, until one realizes that the last campaigns involving Allied land armies (including the Marines) were Iraq and Afghanistan, where their effectiveness in reaching their official objective – neutralizing Al Queda and assorted terrorists – has been doubtful at best, even after an entire decade.
This lackadaisical campaign contrasts starkly with the effectiveness of the air campaigns against Serbia and Libya, and now the drone warfare waged on terrorist leaders. These proved a comparative bargain in terms of treasure, human lives and time, and clearly demonstrated that ground armies have become relatively useless for the pursuit of political goals.
Given today’s geopolitical environment, the only ground troops needed are special forces, except for homeland defense, a manpower-heavy mission where reservists, home guard and military police units come into their own.
So, large armies are the dinosaurs of the modern world, and given the unaffordable cost of the pay and benefits required by modern volunteer soldiers, they will inevitably be phased out.)

Two Three comments:

The editor of defense-aerospace (IMO) has form in supporting euro-think solutions - so I tend to take his comments on the Americans with a grain of salt;

I'm not convinced that this applies directly to Canada because I believe that all Canadian Forces can be seen as "Special" in the sense that the forces raised for the Boer War and Korea were Special Service - the Canadian track record on the use of force is one of force sparingly applied both in terms of frequency and scale.  Even World War 1 and 2, although large in scale, were deliberate choices on the part of the politicians.

Currently, although there are enough HQs for a Corps there are only enough troops for a good sized Brigade Group.  That alone makes the force special.

Edited for a Grand Inquisitor moment - Has anyone got a comfy chair?
 
The traditional purpose of a large, standing army was to intimidate your rivals, and when the dust settled, supply the occupying force to ensure the locals paid taxes to your Procouncel. Armies, beyond garrison forces, are traditionally instruments of Imperial power.

In the modern world, we "may" be able to move beyond these models simply because there are far more efficient means to get what you want beyond the raw, Imperial model of occupying territory and seizing wealth and resources. It is perhaps ironic that the Americans are the masters of these techniques, they buy what they want or need and seduce everyone else with totally irresistable industrial, consumer and cultural products for sale. In such an environment, having a Navy to secure the sea lanes for trade and an expeditionary force to kick down doors and punch the right people in the face when they screw up peaceful trade for everyone else may be the "right" formula.

If that is the case, a small expeditionary army or Marine force may be quite appropriate. Given the global reach and responsibilities of the United States, their expeditionary force will be larger and have a much more robust logistical tail than most other force (and indeed, it may well evolve that the primary function of the US forces is to provide global logistic support for their allies)
 
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