Westboro Church Protest Mega-thread

[48Highlander]

Here's an interesting article about a new law about to be voted on in Indiana:

Protests at all funerals targeted
Bill to shield mourners passes state Senate 47-1

By Mary Beth Schneider
mary.beth.schneider@indystar.com
A bill to restrict protests at military funerals for fallen Hoosiers has been expanded to include all burials.

Setting aside concerns about free speech rights, the Indiana Senate on Thursday passed the measure 47-1. The legislation now moves to the House, where it is expected to pass.
Sen. Brent Steele, R-Bedford, sponsored the bill after hearing about a Kansas religious sect that picketed the August funeral of Army Staff Sgt. Jeremy Doyle in Martinsville. The sect hoisted signs with slogans such as "God blew up the troops." Doyle was killed by an improvised explosive device in Iraq.

The group, Westboro Baptist Church, has protested at five other military funerals in Indiana and a total of about 80 military funerals in 30 states, saying that soldiers are dying because of the United States' tolerance for gays.
At the Jan. 10 Evansville funeral of Army Pvt. Jonathan Pfender, killed in December by a roadside bomb in Iraq, members of the church stomped on the American flag and held signs thanking God for the explosives.

The group's invasion of a family's grief is "unconscionable," Steele said.
He amended his bill to cover all funerals after receiving an e-mail arguing that protecting the sanctity of funerals should not be limited to those of soldiers.
The bill makes it a Class D felony, punishable by up to three years in prison and a $10,000 fine, for anyone engaged in disorderly conduct within 500 feet of a grave site, funeral home or funeral procession.

Any thoughts?  As much as I detest the actions of these religious groups, does it justify placing restrictions on our freedom of speech?

 

[Jarnhamar]

I think it's a beautiful idea.

I think there is freedom of speach and there is yelling FIRE in a crowded building.  Not exactly the same scenario I know but still.

I would argue that these protesters showing up at funerals for soldiers are (or should be) breaking some type of harassment law.  A family dealing with the suffering and greif of lost loved ones don't need to deal with this bullshit.  Protesters are crossing the line from freedom of speach to, in my opinion, causing these family members undue pain and suffering.  I'd even consider it a hate crime.  These protesters are not just excersising their right to free speach they are going out of their way to HURT these family members. 

The bill makes it a Class D felony, punishable by up to three years in prison and a $10,000 fine, for anyone engaged in disorderly conduct within 500 feet of a grave site, funeral home or funeral procession.

Awesome.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Works for me.....untill some Hells Angels use it so Police can't keep watch on who's who.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Thats different though.  Police are law enforcement AND their not burning flags and giving god hates faggets signs to kids.  Law enforcement agencies shouldn't even be associated with this restriction, no?

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

If I was at that funeral I'd be playing some serious smash mouth with those clowns.  Anybody disrespects one of my friends that God forbid doesn't come home unscathed will wish they never woke up that morning.

 

[MikeM]

Amen CFL, Amen.

 

[muffin]

Here's an interesting article about a new law about to be voted on in Indiana:

Any thoughts?  As much as I detest the actions of these religious groups, does it justify placing restrictions on our freedom of speech?

I am doing a paper on censorship in times of crisis, civil liberty, freedom of speech and the patriot act right now - this will make an interesting point - thanks for posting. I was having a hard time finding anything "pro-censor" -

It definatly sheds a different light on things.

Maggie

 

[dutchie]

I can live with that law. Too bad those troops' section mates (squad mates?) weren't there to enlighten the protestors. To exploit a soldier's death (or anyone's for that matter) for political gain or to spread hate is exceptionally offensive to me. Those ungrateful scumbags should be sentenced to cleaning out the body bags and spend their lunch breaks reading letters to and from the deceased loved ones.

 

[S McKee]

Westbro Baptist Church is a group of religious nuts (all one family..you can hear the banjos in the background) who believe in an international "gay conspiracy" and America is "being punished" by God because the government isn't stringing up every homosexual in the US. They're much like Pat Robertson who recently stated that God struck down Areil Sharon because of the Middle-East peace process. The mental agony that they inflict on the families of soldiers by showing up at their funerals and actually rejoicing that these men and women were killed by God, as some sort of divine retribution is truly disgusting. I'm sure there is special place in hell for these inbreds who should be shot on sight.

 

[3rd Herd]

Several points
1) in both the US constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights, FREE SPEACH is not for those of you hard of hearing CARTE BLANCH TO ESPOUSE ANYTHING YOU WISH. IF you choose to do so you are violating my rights and freedoms. To deal with this area there a several provincial and federal statues. Conjunctively there are several recent supreme court rulings affirming this. Ersent Zundal comes to mind.

2) Check out conduct guidelines for students in any university calender. Most guidelines are structured to promote free speech and the exchange of ideas.

3)CFL your wrong but in several cases I know about/involved with judges/crown counsel have used their powers of discretion and punishment has fitted the crime (pre emptive justice). I believe the term used was "mitigating circumstances". I know your to you to remember this, but in the United States a popular sport developed in throwing blood on returning soldiers from Viet Nam in Oakland and Seattle airports. It was interesting here the opinion of those professionals.

4) Muffin if your are looking for some more cases at a provincial level- Surrey School Board(I forget the district #) and school library content, again in BC Supreme court, restriction of speech, action and demonstration in the proximity to abortion clinics.

5) Bruce, the Angels already tried this and they lost. Just as an aside have you seen the dial 1-800-***-**** report biker gang activity posters springing up.

6) To me all it seems the the State of Indiana is doing is reaffirming the right o peaceful assembly ( the military funerals) and recognizing there is a problem and therefore enacting legislation as their citizen's desire.

7) Grade 11 Canadian Law to start in 1 hour room 109.

my two cents

 

[Sig_Des]

I'll agree completely with Jumper's last.

To subject these soldier's families to the stress and pile on to their grief is unjustifiable in all senses. There is NO excuse.

The exploitation of a funeral, no matter what kind or whose it is, for any sort of political or personal gain, is just plain bloody disgusting.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

3rd not sure what I'm wrong about.  My actions.  Well maybe but if it were to happen I'll be on the news right or wrong.

 

[Douke]

Every right that is given to you by the American or Canadian constitutions are conditional to the fact that the exercise of your right is not preventing anyone else from exercising his. In this case, these fanatic religious nuts are without a single doubt preventing KIA military families from exercising their right to respect and peaceful gathering. It hence become civil disorder and should be treated as is.

Douke

 

[muffin]

4) Muffin if your are looking for some more cases at a provincial level- Surrey School Board(I forget the district #) and school library content, again in BC Supreme court, restriction of speech, action and demonstration in the proximity to abortion clinics.

Thank you Herd -
I am trying to keep the focus on restrictions of artistic freedom and civil liberties during times of crisis as I have to keep it to 4 pages and therefor had to refine the scope a little.

I am heading more in the "Banning the Dixie Chicks and John Lennon music" direction - though one was government ordered and the other public demanded...

There was a Doonesbury cartoon banned just after 9/11 because it was a bush satire, and there was that Arnold Swartzennager movie (the name escapes me) that was delayed because it showed an attack on the trade towers.

But... now that I have managed to take this thread right off topic ... I digress lol

 

[48Highlander]

Several points
1) in both the US constitution and the Canadian Charter of Rights, FREE SPEACH is not for those of you hard of hearing CARTE BLANCH TO ESPOUSE ANYTHING YOU WISH. IF you choose to do so you are violating my rights and freedoms. To deal with this area there a several provincial and federal statues. Conjunctively there are several recent supreme court rulings affirming this. Ersent Zundal comes to mind.

6) To me all it seems the the State of Indiana is doing is reaffirming the right o peaceful assembly ( the military funerals) and recognizing there is a problem and therefore enacting legislation as their citizen's desire.

Sorry, but you're wrong.  Someone protesting a funeral does not violate the right of those attending the funeral to "peaceful assembly".  Whereas making it illegal for them to protest at the funerals DOES remove their right to peaceful assembly.

You're right in that the right to free speech does not give you carte blanche to say anything you wish, however, up untill this point the only limitations that the US has placed on it is in cases such as making death threats, inciting riots, or creating panic.  Those are all quite different from voicing your political beleifs at a funeral.

Moreover, this ruling doesn't really limit freedom of speech so much as the right to peacably assemble.  I suppose I phrased my original question badly.  These people are still free to voice their vile beleifs, but they're not allowed to do so while at a funeral.

Keep in mind I'm not AGAINST this law....I'm just a little iffy about it.

Every right that is given to you by the American or Canadian constitutions are conditional to the fact that the exercise of your right is not preventing anyone else from exercising his.

Right, but protesting has never been considered to be preventing others from exercising their rights.  If you say that this is somehow infringing on the rights of the mourners at the funeral, then by the same logic you could stifle ANY speech you don't like.  You could make it illegal for people to speak out against the war on Iraq based on the idea that it's hurtful to the families of the soldiers.  Or you could make it illegal for people to speak out FOR the war on Iraq, based on the idea that they're promoting the killing of innocent Iraqis.  Once you start regulating where and how people can assemble, and what they can say there....you're starting down a slippery slope.

 

[Brad Sallows]

It would be very difficult to demonstrate that an exercise of free speech was a direct assault on one's inherent freedoms.  Ill manners are certainly not an infringement of rights.  The mere existence of freedoms of conscience implies the obligation to be tolerant of beliefs and expression you dislike, since it is impractical to expect to never become aware of any.

An exhortation to someone to undertake to actually infringe a right is not in itself an infringement, since between every exhortation and act stands a rational person of free will capable of making a moral decision.  Accountability for that decision and any resulting act rests with the person making it.

People have difficulty understanding this basic concept, although they learn it as children: "Do you do everything someone tells you?".  It shows, unfortunately, in some of our laws.

In most cases we already have the means to restrain poor manners.  For example, most if not all funerals are conducted in privately-owned buildings on privately-owned lands.  However, nowadays everyone seems to want the quick fix to their offended sensibilities, so censorship is the preferred solution.

 

[3rd Herd]

Slope= Injunction a method used to employ lawyers who would otherwise be collecting E.I. and is becoming more and more synonymous to "slap suit".

 

[S McKee]

IMO the particular case that this forum relates to, that being the loonies of Westbro Baptist Church, is not really about free speech. In Canada their actions at these funerals would be prosecuted under our hate laws. The funeral is an opportunity to spread their hatred against homosexuals, who according to these hillbillies, are the cause of all the evil in world. They could care less about the war. They publically advocate that "God hates Fags" which could be considered as an invitation to incite violence against gays. Check out their website complete with screaming homosexuals roasting in hell. True paragons of Christian love.

 

[mo-litia]

It seems to me that the most likely result of this law-if passed-will be that the protesters will appeal-successfully  :-\-that THEIR rights are being violated by having their right of protest taken away.

A compromise will likely occur in the courts, allowing people to protest a certain distance from the funeral, with some restrictions given on the amount of noise they are allowed to generate, etc, so that they can not interfere with the funeral or intrude upon the grief of the mourners.  A caveat that I HOPE would be added to such a compromise law would be a restriction upon any direct contact between media members and the mourners; privacy should be protected at occasions such as a funeral.

I don't agree with inbred, anti-military hillbillies protesting at a soldier's funeral but we have to keep in mind that troops should not be dying for freedom when freedoms are being taken away in their own country.

 

[SHELLDRAKE!!]

What bothers me is that they would attend a soldiers funeral to "make their point". Soldiers are fighting for their country, they dont make the political decisions. Sure demonstrate all you want but do it on the lawn of the people pulling the strings.