Two children killed after car nears Canadian convoy

[GAP]

Two children killed after car nears Canadian convoy
Updated Mon. Jul. 28 2008 7:37 AM ET CTV.ca News Staff
Article Link

Two children were killed when Canadian troops opened fire on a car they feared was about to attack their convoy, the Canadian Forces announced Monday.

The siblings, aged two and four, were killed in Kandahar province late Sunday.

The driver of the car ignored repeated signals to keep away from the convoy, said the statement.

The Canadian gunner, apparently fearing a suicide attack, fired after the car came within 10 metres of the convoy.

"It is with profound sadness that we announce that two Afghan children . . . were killed in this incident," said the statement.

"We deeply regret this incident, and our thoughts are with the families and friends of the deceased during this difficult time.

"Our soldiers are trained to take all appropriate steps to minimize civilian casualties. However, they must take action to protect themselves when they believe they are being threatened."

Sources at the local hospital confirm that a boy and girl were killed and their parents treated for injuries, reports The Canadian Press.

According to Human Rights Watch, at least 300 Afghan civilians have been mistakenly killed by coalition forces in 2007 -- with thousands killed since 2001.

Militants often use civilian cars loaded with explosives to target coalition convoys.

Afghan police and coalition forces will conduct a joint investigation into the incident.
More on link

 

[Snafu-Bar]

This is the second incidient involving people not heeding the move away orders, is it just me or is something not being properly communicated to the civilians in regards to stop or i'll have to shoot.?

  :-\

 

[The Bread Guy]

ISAF statement

ISAF escalation of force incident, two civilians dead and one other wounded
ISAF news release PR# 2008-350, 28 Jul 08

KABUL, Afghanistan - ISAF soldiers opened fire on a vehicle being driven in a threatening manner and ignoring warnings, killing two child occupants and wounding one adult on July 27 at approximately 7:30 p.m.

The incident occurred in Kandahar Province. ISAF was conducting a security patrol when they were approached by a vehicle. The vehicle was directed to keep its distance but it did not comply. ISAF soldiers gave hand, arm and audio signals as well as flashing light signals to stop. When the vehicle was 10 metres away and still approaching rapidly, the ISAF soldiers, fearing an attack, fired on it.

The injured civilians were treated by ISAF medical personnel at the scene. An adult male, who had suffered serious wounds, was taken by ANP to Mirwais Hospital for further checks.

Our soldiers are trained to take the appropriate steps to minimize civilian casualties. However, they must take action to protect themselves when threatened. Tragic incidents such as this are avoidable if the public comply with the instructions of those who are endeavouring to provide a safe environment.

ISAF runs frequent public service announcements and advertising campaigns aimed at keeping the local population informed about the need to maintain a safe distance from ISAF convoys as they travel throughout the region.

ISAF deeply regrets the outcome of this incident which will be fully investigated.

 

[gaspasser]

As much as my thoguhts are with the family after this incident, and I mourn the loss of two children:
The soldier part of me says good on the lads for doing everything possible to avoid a bad confrontation because the driver was given ample warning; and bad on the father/driver for putting his family in harms way. 
Do I feel overly sad at this point, "Jimmy crack corn......"

 

[xena]

Absolutely, BYT Driver, I mourn too the loss of such young lives.

But, those in theatre know all too often that vehicles with civilians including children are used for car bomb attacks.  Even if certain vehicles aren't loaded with explosives, they (Taleban and Al Qaeda) use these vehicles to probe our defenses and see where the weak spots are.  If the vehicle in question does not actually have a bomb, it is highly probable to be a prelude to a real attack.  By the way, all the locals are exceedingly well aware to stay away from the convoys.  "Gee, I didn't know" doesn't fly.

As loathe as I am to refer to an American TV show, I believe the one of the episodes of "Over There", although set in Iraq, had an episode dealing with the deceptive and probing tactics used by car bombers.  It is not an easy episode to watch, I'll warn you though.

What would have to go through your head to drive towards an armed military convoy, knowing full well that you should stay away from them, repeatedly being warned to stay away, with kids in your car?

May God give rest to those children where the light of His countenance shines...

 

[JABAC]

I heard this story on the radio on my way to work this morning.  Although I hate hearing of civilians killed in Afghanistan, I have to say it infuriated me how the story was reported.  It made the soldiers seem like they were careless and in the wrong for firing.  One report even suggested that unless the killing of civilians is stopped, people will begin to stand up against the foreigners and unleash a jihad.
http://www.660news.com/news/international/article.jsp?content=w072865A
How blatantly ignorant to suggest that we will bring a “holy war” upon ourselves for trying to help another nation establish independence and a credible government.  We still need to understand that we are in a war.  Can you imagine the backlash that would have occurred if there were a bomb in the vehicle and the soldier failed to fire?  It appalls me how the media tries to manipulate people into viewing a situation a certain way…so that they will speak out against the war, without even understanding what’s really going on.  My heart and support goes out to the soldier who fired on the car.  Try to imagine what he must be going through now, especially with all the negative media attention.  We must show our soldiers that we support them despite whatever happens.

 

[vonGarvin]

 One report even suggested that unless the killing of civilians is stopped, people will begin to stand up against the foreigners and unleash a jihad.

This is not as far off as you may think.  "They" know this (and by "they" I mean the insurgents) and they have shown in the past that they know this.  They use civilians as shields, hoping that some get killed, and then "they" can spin the results into a NATO massacre.  Just as we do when "they" kill civilians.

 

[xena]

Exactly my point.  This was undoubtedly a probe for a subsequent attack.  They look for spots where soldiers don't follow their ROE's strictly, or hesitate.  That soldier who opened fire probably saved a lot of coalition, and Canadian, lives.

I'd like to see a reporter look at it from that angle.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Exactly my point.  This was undoubtedly a probe for a subsequent attack.  They look for spots where soldiers don't follow their ROE's strictly, or hesitate.  That soldier who opened fire probably saved a lot of coalition, and Canadian, lives.

I'd like to see a reporter look at it from that angle.

Let's not be starting rumours on conjecture, before the investigation even gets past the email stage. You have no such information at this time, and it serves no purpose to second guess and armchair quarterback.

 

[Kilo_302]

This was undoubtedly a probe for a subsequent attack.

Isn't that a bit speculative?

 

[xena]

You're both right.  Complete speculation on my part.  My apologies to all. 

Would it be more accurate to say that it fits the profile of a probe against our defenses?  If so, I'd say the soldier who opened fire was probably justified (my personal opinion of course, which would obviously not influence any investigation).

I just find that I want to support the soldier involved, and mourn the loss of two innocent kids at the same time.  Emotionally, it's easier to allocate blame on our enemies, who have a history of using human shields and deceptive strategies; but all the facts are not in, so I have to just feel the way I do until more info is available.

Again, my apologies for speculation. 

- Edited to make the text colours more readable.

 

[medic65726]

I feel sorry for the poor soilder who pulled the trigger. Absolutely the right decision to make at the time, just a very unfortunate outcome. And the loss of the two children is indeed a tragedy. I just hope we do not end up with a politically motivated investigation into this. I recall a similar incident in Northern Ireland that ended up in murder charges for the poor Para who tried to defend himself. He ended up with a murder conviction although it was eventually overturned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Clegg
Never mind having to live with the outcome of the decision, but to be prosecuted as well.
An unfortunate situation but if the car had just pulled over when signalled to....................................

 

[meni0n]

There's a huge sign on the back of the truck that says to stay away. People over there just driver carelessly.

 

[gaspasser]

Sorry to link from another thread, but the CBC {yeah!what a wonderful unbiased news network} just captioned "Soldiers Kill Children" on the noonday news.  Why couldn't they say "Soldiers avert Death"  Or "Soldier fires on possible Threat" OR "Soldier Does His Job"
aaaarrrgh  Sorry. 

 

[darmil]

I agree there are signs on the back of our vehicles. lately we cut off the top part which has the warning in pashtu.So the sign just has the vehicle and the hand outreach due to the fact that well over 70% are illiterate.Vehicles over here are constantly getting close especially in KC.

 

[midget-boyd91]

Why in God's name do news pages have to let users post comments? I mean reading these makes blood boil. Are people really this stupid and heartless?
Take a look at this from the comments on the 'Canadian's Kill Two Kids' page.

JuneMurray wrote: “My neighbor and friend Glen Arnold was killed in 2006 by a suicide bomber on a bicycle while he was handing out gifts and candy to children in Kandahar.”

"Captain Canada" says:
Why are active duty officers with guns handing candy to children?

Seems rather irresponsible to me… Maybe if Glen had been doing his job instead of surrounding himself with innocent children he and they would still be here today! I would never put children in that kind of danger, Glen should be ashamed of himself for allowing those children to be put in that situation!

June, I would also like to say this, why wasn’t this all over the news? Why can’t I find this or any photo evidence of these actions, my god, everyone has a camera these days? Where are the pictures of the charred remains of children that would rally every decent Canadian against these heathens? Makes me wonder, you’re selling me something I can never see… This is kind of like believing in God… Except your truth, or faith is full of hate and fear… Something I don’t believe in… 

Insulting a Canadian soldier killed is just about as low as low can get.

Midget

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Why in God's name do news pages have to let users post comments? I mean reading these makes blood boil. Are people really this stupid and heartless?
Take a look at this from the comments on the 'Canadian's Kill Two Kids' page.

Insulting a Canadian soldier killed is just about as low as low can get.

Midget

Even 'ignorant civvies' are entitled to their opinion, no matter how disgusting and ill thought out.

Others serve with quiet professionalism, and some pay the ultimate sacrifice, to ensure that right.

 

[1feral1]

Good morning to all members and guests.

ROE's are there for a purpose, to save lives.

Firstly, I have been in many convoys in the 'badlands' of Baghdad city and surrounding province, in LAVs in the shooter/operator role, I have been in some tight spots, and I personally know the stress and constant state of alertness one must endure outside the wire. On too many occasions too numerous to mention I have had my rifle directly pointed at people of all ages (safety catch  OFF), from kids to the elderly. So, I reckon that gives me the right to express an opinion on such a sensitive issue.

Who's fault WRT this incident?

IMHO, at the end of the day, if the driver would have OBEYED the basics, everyone would be happy and those kids would be alive.

If the vehicle was allowed to overtake the convoy and cooked off, well, its our boys who would have been killed, and most likely more than two.

Today, my sympthies and thoughts do not go out to the driver or family, but to the soldiers (and their families) who must endure making a snap decision to protect themselves and others they were assigned to protect. As soldiers and men, we must live with our decisions, and this soldier can hold his head high, as he had done the correct thing. He stopped a potential direct threat to himself and others. Unfortunatly, two people were killed, but that is out of his control, the blame falls on the driver of the car.

This incident demonstrates the stress and instant decisions which our Forces are under all the time. Although the outcome was unfortunate, it is the reality of war.

I do hope the media does not overplay this incident.

If the local general public will not obey simple hand signals and disregard signage placed for their protection (and ours), they have only themselves to blame for their impatience or stupidity. Its not as if we got there last week. The locals know the drill.

Comments like the one quoted above WRT Glen Arnold, literally almost make me VOMIT, and 'Captain Canada' has done nothing but demonstrate his sheer ignorance, arrogance and stupidity to the reality of being deployed in a hostile envorinment. That bit about active duty 'officers' with guns/children nearly sat me on my arse!

Regards from the coldest winter day so far,

OWDU.

 

[medaid]

I mourn for the children, and I hope the soldier who had engaged the suspect vehicle is getting the help he/she needs at the moment, and receive continual support here on. It's never easy to kill, and it's not easy to have known that you had killed children.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Latest (highlights mine), shared with the usual disclaimer....

Canadian army 'regrets' killing 2 Afghan children when car approached convoy
Alexander Panetta, The Canadian Press, 28 Jul 08
Article link

Canadian troops have killed a two-year-old boy and his four-year-old sister by opening fire on a car that they feared was about to attack their convoy in Afghanistan.

Soldiers said that as the car sped toward them in Panjwaii district outside Kandahar city, they flashed the lights on their vehicles, made hand gestures and issued audio warnings for it to pull over.

The car came within 10 metres of the convoy.

The crew in a light armoured vehicle faced a life-or-death choice and had very little time to make it: fire at the car or risk being blown up by a suicide bomber.

The gunner pulled the trigger.

The 25-millimetre cannon round tore through the little girl's skull and left a gaping wound in her younger brother's torso, said a doctor and two others who saw their bodies at the local hospital.

The children's mother frantically paced the hallways at the hospital, shrieking and cursing foreign soldiers between sobs.

One police officer at the hospital said he saw and heard the mother scream: "My innocent children have been killed by foreigners - for no reason!"

The father was also a passenger in the vehicle. He was being treated for lacerations but left the Kandahar city hospital without permission to attend his children's funeral.

Another hospital visitor said that if he were the children's father, he would personally strap on a suicide vest and exact vengeance on Canadian troops.

Shopkeeper Din Mohammad said foreign soldiers had better stop accidentally killing civilians or they will suffer the same fate as the defeated Soviets.

"They must stop this," said Mohammed, who was visiting his son at Mirwais hospital when he saw the children's lifeless bodies carried in.

"Otherwise the day will come when everybody will stand up against the foreigners in a holy war - a jihad."

"It's happened once before (with the Soviets). If things continue like this, history will repeat itself."

An investigation into Sunday's incident will be conducted by Afghan police and the major crimes unit within Canadian Forces Military Police.

The Canadian military expressed remorse over the tragedy.

"We deeply regret this incident, and our thoughts are with the families and friends of the deceased during this difficult time," it said in a statement.

"This is a tough incident for the crews involved to deal with, as this is the last thing soldiers want to happen," the army said.

"The soldiers believed they had to take action to protect their convoy because the car was coming toward them at high speed."

Hospital staff said the children's father, Rozi Khan, sustained minor injuries. The children's mother and the driver of the car were not injured.

Afghan and United Nations officials have pleaded with international troops to avoid causing civilian casualties, which undermine support for the government and foreign forces.

Human Rights Watch says at least 300 Afghan civilians were mistakenly killed by the coalition last year, and thousands are believed to have died since 2001.

Insurgents killed even more civilians - at least 374 - in attacks last year.

The police officer who saw the children's mother crying in the hospital said foreigners aren't the only ones to blame for civilian deaths.

"They're not killing civilians in Kabul. Why is that?" Abdul Karim asked rhetorically. "They don't kill them in Kabul because there is peace there. Here, (soldiers) are scared."

The policeman was being treated for injuries from a land-mine explosion.

Militants regularly use civilian cars loaded with explosives in suicide missions.

With a finger constantly on the trigger, LAV gunners scan the road ahead for possible threats.

In cases where coalition forces have fired a split-second too late, soldiers have been killed in suicide explosions. In cases where they've fired too early, innocent people have died - as was the case Sunday.

Coalition forces run frequent advertising campaigns that warn Afghan locals to keep a safe distance from convoys. In fact, most locals are terrified of getting close to military vehicles.

The approach of such convoys frequently triggers a frantic scene in Kandahar city. Brakes screech, steering wheels swerve and drivers seek to avoid crashing into each other as they pull off the road and out of the convoy's way.

Taxi drivers in Kandahar city wave down their colleagues and shout at them to stay off certain streets where foreign troops are spotted.

Earlier this month, U.S. forces wiped out an entire wedding party in eastern Afghanistan, killing 47 civilians in an aerial bombing, the Afghan government has said.

Canada has no aircraft in Afghanistan capable of such attacks from the sky. But Canada has been involved in other civilian killings before.

In one incident, a 90-year-old man who was a respected political scientist and mentor to President Hamid Karzai was shot when he approached troops on a motorbike.

In another, a young man riding on a motorbike was shot through the chest and the bullet struck the head of his little brother riding behind him, killing the boy.

The Canadian military frequently offers financial compensation for civilian deaths. It said it would speak to the family and follow the local custom in this case.

"We will remain in contact with the family and will provide them with explanations about why our soldiers took the actions they did," the military said.

"It is not our policy to discuss in detail compensation to families . . . (but) we will strive to follow cultural customs and traditions in the manner in which we express our condolences."