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Troop Strength to Increase

I think the best thing the Govt could do for the forces would be to disband, well not disband but stand down, a good number of the reserve regiments, and almalgamete the members. Far too much money is wasted on the administration of small "regiments" of less then 80 soldiers. Amalgamate them into say, two or three regiments per province, that way we'd have 500 infantry in BC being admnisitered by a battalion staff, not three different staffs. Building larger regiments would also increase moral as it would provide better training(large op For, more diverse options) and a greater moral from a sense of being part of a "real" unit. Assigning 3 regiemtns per brigade would save a great deal of money all across the board, not only in administrations coast but in terms of actual pay checks, it's alot easier to pay one light colonel then three or four.
 
Our main problem right now is recruiting. Or rather the processing of people who would like to join.

6-12 months is a horrible time frame. Hell why not skip all this crazy CFRC stuff and get people to sign on for a two month training contract. You pass your training you get another two month contract then if the military thinks your worth keeping you get your three year contract. Tell them that if they fail to meet the standard they get 1 weeks severance and a bus ticket home. I guarantee this would keep the whining down in the ranks.This would also allow you to get your hands on them for 60 days of medical assessments, aptitude tests, drug tests etc. You would lose allot of people but I doubt it would be as many as the current system.

With the current system people can spend their entire CF career in a PAT platoon being recoursed.

Please note that this is just an idea and not a totally thought out plan. Just something to get people talking about our change.
 
Franko said:
Dreamer.....nothing but a dreamer.......   ;)
If the Liberals achieve my first 4 prioreties, maybe when the Conservatives get in they can start work on priorety five.


. . . dreams are great.
 
Far too much money is wasted on the administration of small "regiments" of less then 80 soldiers. Amalgamate them into say, two or three regiments per province, that way we'd have 500 infantry in BC being admnisitered by a battalion staff

Ya nothing like driving 500 KMs to get your CO to sign a memo.
Who cares about all the battle honours.
 
R031button said:
I think the best thing the Govt could do for the forces would be to disband, well not disband but stand down, a good number of the reserve regiments, and almalgamete the members. Far too much money is wasted on the administration of small "regiments" of less then 80 soldiers.

Check out this thread:  http://army.ca/forums/threads/16950.0.html
 
In order to facilitate an increase of 5000 PY (not necessarily Army), DND would have to re-open an additional Recruit School. For Example When Cornwallis was running at full Steam. It would bring a new platoon of any wheres  of 100 to 140 pers per week. The only tiime that the school stood down was during the 2 week christams break. Cornwallis had a 12 platoon staffs to conduct the trg and 3 cadres. Therefore approximately 5000 tps were trained in any one year. Additionaly St. Jean trained Francophone Tps. Currently the canadian forces couldn't train enough tps to allow this increase to happen even if we wanted to without some new iniatrives.
 
Here's your answer about the Liberals priorities and the validity of their elxn promises ...

Promise could gut military
Ships, jets may be scrapped to fulfill Liberal troop pledge

Chris Wattie; with files from Mike Blanchfield
National Post, with files from CanWest News Service

Saturday, August 21, 2004

The Canadian military may be forced to mothball all of its remaining destroyers and ground up to a quarter of its front-line fighter jets in order to fulfill a Liberal election promise to create a new, 5,000-strong "peacekeeping brigade."
Bill Graham, the Defence Minister, is to present options on the proposed new brigade to Cabinet by the end of the month, but Defence sources have told the National Post the military has been told to prepare drastic measures to pay for the idea.
In an article posted yesterday on the Web site of Jane's Defence Weekly, the London-based defence publishing and analysis group said senior Canadian officers have been working in secret on finding a way to pay for the promised influx of new troops.
Under the proposal, the navy is to take all of its Iroquois-class destroyers, the flagship vessels from which commodores or admirals can command a task force of warships, out of service, while the air force is to ground as many as 20 of its CF-18s, a quarter of its entire fighter force. The CF-18 Hornet is in the midst of a $2.3-billion, six-year modernization program.
During the federal election campaign, the Liberals promised to add a new brigade of 5,000 troops to the overstretched and chronically underfunded Canadian military specifically for peacekeeping and "peace support" missions.
The military was caught completely off guard by the pledge, which senior officers believe Paul Martin, the Prime Minister, made hastily in the heat of fighting an early Conservative surge in the campaign.
One senior military official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the Armed Forces are worried they "are going to be perceived as being in bed with this cockamamie idea."
They also fear the plan could lead to the effective demise of the navy and air force.
Gordon O'Connor, the Conservative defence critic, said the Liberal government wants to make the Forces foot the bill for an election promise he said was made in haste without considering the cost.
"It's outrageous," he said. "They're talking about scavenging the navy and the air force to keep their promises. It's just smoke and mirrors ... they make the promises, but don't want to pay for them."
Analysts have estimated the cost of adding a new brigade at more than $2-billion and have cautioned it would take the military more than a decade to build up its strength from the current 53,000 troops.
Jane's Defence Weekly, the London-based defence publishing and analysis group, estimated the cost at $1.5-billion for equipment, $750-million for infrastructure and approximately $400-million a year to maintain the additional soldiers. Defence officials say the Forces are already running a $1-billion annual deficit to pay for current operations.
Mr. O'Connor, a former brigadier-general in the army, said the army needs the extra troops but the air force and navy also need more resources. By stripping the budget of the other two services, he said the Liberals are "dumbing down the armed forces: They're reducing their ability to defend Canada and Canadian interests."
Much of the cost of the new brigade will have to come out of the existing National Defence budget. Military planners were told even before the election not to expect any increase in the $1.3-billion defence budget for at least two years, and officers say they are being asked to rush the plan through on the assumption there would be little or no new money to pay for it.
The government wants to have the peacekeeping plan ready for Mr. Martin to unveil when he visits the United Nations later this year, said one officer who spoke on condition of anonymity.
Options being considered include slotting the additional troops into the many regiments and brigades that are understrength, or creating a new brigade or some kind of specialized formation devoted to peacekeeping, Jane's reported.
While the air force and navy may be allocated some of the new troops, Lieutenant-General Steve Lucas, a special advisor to the Chief of the Defence Staff, told Jane's that "virtually all of the options have a heavy army flavour to them."
Mr. Martin has also backed down from conducting a broad review of defence policy, as he promised last December.
Mr. Graham announced last month that there would be no formal defence policy review, just an "in-house" examination with no public consultation.

But Martin Shadwick, a defence analyst at York University, said the government should conduct full public consultations. "To do it quietly in the night while you're just trying to scrounge money for the 5,000 peacekeepers, I'm not totally sure that's a candid approach to take with the public," said Mr. Shadwick.
"You could make a case intellectually for this 40 years ago, but not today," he said. "Even the word 'peacekeeping' is suspect. It's much more dangerous, much more demanding, much more likely to need the sort of skills that soldiers have."
 
They decided not to do the defence review?  >:( So many explitives... so little time  :crybaby:
 
no defence review no extra money for new troops. find money that we don't have nice :threat:  Well i guess we should start getting in line to  become American citizens.  No defence = no country.  Canada is on a long and slow road to a failed state.  Just keep voting in the liberals and we soon will be citizens of the country to the south. that is if they want us i have a feeling they would not.
 
That was seems to be the majority of canadians choose to do.  So bloody sad.
 
The latest on the 5,000


Promise could gut military
Ships, jets may be scrapped to fulfill Liberal troop pledge
 
Chris Wattie; with files from Mike Blanchfield
National Post, with files from CanWest News Service


August 21, 2004


The Canadian military may be forced to mothball all of its remaining destroyers and ground up to a quarter of its front-line fighter jets in order to fulfill a Liberal election promise to create a new, 5,000-strong "peacekeeping brigade."

Bill Graham, the Defence Minister, is to present options on the proposed new brigade to Cabinet by the end of the month, but Defence sources have told the National Post the military has been told to prepare drastic measures to pay for the idea.

In an article posted yesterday on the Web site of Jane's Defence Weekly, the London-based defence publishing and analysis group said senior Canadian officers have been working in secret on finding a way to pay for the promised influx of new troops.

Under the proposal, the navy is to take all of its Iroquois-class destroyers, the flagship vessels from which commodores or admirals can command a task force of warships, out of service, while the air force is to ground as many as 20 of its CF-18s, a quarter of its entire fighter force. The CF-18 Hornet is in the midst of a $2.3-billion, six-year modernization program.

During the federal election campaign, the Liberals promised to add a new brigade of 5,000 troops to the overstretched and chronically underfunded Canadian military specifically for peacekeeping and "peace support" missions.

The military was caught completely off guard by the pledge, which senior officers believe Paul Martin, the Prime Minister, made hastily in the heat of fighting an early Conservative surge in the campaign.

One senior military official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the Armed Forces are worried they "are going to be perceived as being in bed with this cockamamie idea."

They also fear the plan could lead to the effective demise of the navy and air force.

Gordon O'Connor, the Conservative defence critic, said the Liberal government wants to make the Forces foot the bill for an election promise he said was made in haste without considering the cost.

"It's outrageous," he said. "They're talking about scavenging the navy and the air force to keep their promises. It's just smoke and mirrors ... they make the promises, but don't want to pay for them."

Analysts have estimated the cost of adding a new brigade at more than $2-billion and have cautioned it would take the military more than a decade to build up its strength from the current 53,000 troops.

Jane's Defence Weekly, the London-based defence publishing and analysis group, estimated the cost at $1.5-billion for equipment, $750-million for infrastructure and approximately $400-million a year to maintain the additional soldiers. Defence officials say the Forces are already running a $1-billion annual deficit to pay for current operations.

Mr. O'Connor, a former brigadier-general in the army, said the army needs the extra troops but the air force and navy also need more resources. By stripping the budget of the other two services, he said the Liberals are "dumbing down the armed forces: They're reducing their ability to defend Canada and Canadian interests."


Promise could gut military

Much of the cost of the new brigade will have to come out of the existing National Defence budget. Military planners were told even before the election not to expect any increase in the $1.3-billion defence budget for at least two years, and officers say they are being asked to rush the plan through on the assumption there would be little or no new money to pay for it.

The government wants to have the peacekeeping plan ready for Mr. Martin to unveil when he visits the United Nations later this year, said one officer who spoke on condition of anonymity.

Options being considered include slotting the additional troops into the many regiments and brigades that are understrength, or creating a new brigade or some kind of specialized formation devoted to peacekeeping, Jane's reported.

While the air force and navy may be allocated some of the new troops, Lieutenant-General Steve Lucas, a special advisor to the Chief of the Defence Staff, told Jane's that "virtually all of the options have a heavy army flavour to them."

Mr. Martin has also backed down from conducting a broad review of defence policy, as he promised last December.

Mr. Graham announced last month that there would be no formal defence policy review, just an "in-house" examination with no public consultation.

But Martin Shadwick, a defence analyst at York University, said the government should conduct full public consultations. "To do it quietly in the night while you're just trying to scrounge money for the 5,000 peacekeepers, I'm not totally sure that's a candid approach to take with the public," said Mr. Shadwick.

"You could make a case intellectually for this 40 years ago, but not today," he said. "Even the word 'peacekeeping' is suspect. It's much more dangerous, much more demanding, much more likely to need the sort of skills that soldiers have."

(Ottawa Citizen)

© National Post 2004


http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=b393159c-5380-4b7d-91f3-8266b57ac1bf

 
I expect the proposals going to cabinet will reflect (at least):

1.  Creating a new brigade & increasing the PYs by 5000;
2.  Creating a new brigade and using existing PYs from within the CF; and
3.  Adding 5000 PYs to the CF (mostly or all field force) without creating a new brigade.

Going back to what I see as prioreties, an option based on #3 would be best for us.  (Let the government create a new brigade with the next 5000 they want to give us)
 
3.  Adding 5000 PYs to the CF (mostly or all field force) without creating a new brigade.

Would 5000 be enough to "top up" the three current brigades? Or would there still be major shortfalls after 5000 troops were added?
 
That would be subjective (based on what one feels the brigades need added).  However, without recruiting & training, the new PYs will just become more vacant jobs.
 
Gun Shy said:
in order to facilitate an increase of 5000 PY (not necessarily Army), DND would have to re-open an additional Recruit School.
. . . or the CF could increase the capacity of St Jean and the Army's four area training centres.   Imagine if each ACT were given 3 BMQ/SQ course staff.   Putting all army recruits through BMQ at an ACT would allow them to lauch directly onto an SQ.   Then they would only have to sit in a PAT Pl once (while waiting for MOC trg) and not twice (between BMQ & SQ, then between SQ & MOC).
 
Bulk up the army and put the cock to the Air Force and Navy....

Oh yeah thats good for the CF.

We could use 5000 more pers just to fill in all those position currently unfilled. Find me a trade thats not currently understregth....
 
More Liberal bullshit! I knew they wouldn't do a damn thing!

Slim
 
Armymedic said:
We could use 5000 more pers just to fill in all those position currently unfilled. Find me a trade thats not currently understregth....
My understanding of the promise was that we would get 5000 more PYs (because we are already entitled to pers for the existing vacancies).

I will restate that priority for new PYs must go to the training system.
 
All good points so far, but don't look for the Libs to reverse course on this one. The spin masters are in place, and they are raring to go!! Eliminating the destroyers saves money now, and in the future by not having to replace them, same thing with the CF-18's, not they were ever going to be replaced anyway; mothballing 2 of the CPF, well that's 2 less to upgrade under the FELEX program, if that program even gets off the ground. My bet, the brigade gets announced, the equipment gets deleted, and the current regs force regiments are drawn down to create this "thing."

Assuming all of this is done, here is a brief synopsis of what will have happened to the CF equipment in the past 10 years:

1. Elimination of tanks;
2. Elimination of SP artillery;
3. Reduce army combat effective strength between 1/4 and 1/3; in addition to eliminating Airborne Regiment
4. Lower-eliminate training cycles and standards;
5. Eliminate MR AAD for the navy;
6. Eliminate Command and COntrol Capability for Navy;  
7. Mothball 30 percent of an already understrength Naval fleet;
8. Cut MP patrol aircraft and flying hours;
9. Cut fighter aircraft strength by over 2/3rds;
10 Reduce AOR naval fleet by 1/3;
11. Reduce army formations by 1/4;

and the list goes on. But, on the bright side:

New Equipment:

1. LAV III, Coyote; G-wagens- all too few in number, not enough armour kits and not enough trained personnel to maintain;
2. Added a couple of remote control drones of questionable reliability;
3. Plan to equip with MGS death trap, probably cancel now that US is going to pull the plug;
4. Announce JSS program for vessel that does so many missions it can't really accomplish any of them effectively;
5. "Modernize" Cf-18 to early '90's standard
6. Acquire 1980's era submarines that leak; squeak and reek;
7. Announce MMEV as a concept theory, where it will forever remain;
8. Replace SP artillery with oversized pickup truck, mounting 105 mm, a fancy CB radio, Canadian tire GPS and a laptop.
9. Out of work sailors, aircrew and armour troops remuster to new trades in the peacekeeping brigade.

And, the list goes on ...

All because we are a "peacekeeping nation", "the troops come first", "it would be illberal not to do so"; and that list goes on.    

 
lfejoel25 said:
i think a lot of canadians don't know what the role of the cf is, and confuse it with military aggression.

The trouble is, our own government hasn't a clue what the role of the CF is. This was never more evident than the propaganda campaign against the CF during the last election by the Liberals, equating military expansion with Americanism and a desire to invade Iraq. Our society really doesn't have a desire to do the necessary dirty work for its protection and/or believe there will never be an immediate threat.

I had a teacher in high school many years ago who advocated that Canada should have absolutely no military at all. It was impossible to convince him that peace through resistance is currently the only sustainable method of delivering peace because some fellow member of the human species across the Atlantic or Pacific may not share the same visions of Utopia.
 
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