Traditions. Bottom up or top down

[FSTO]

Talk about traditions in other threads, and a chat I had yesterday with an old friend got me to thinking.
Any attempt towards establishing “traditions” from senior leadership is usually met with derision from the lower ranks (the new toasts of the day for example). While enduring traditions seem to be a living being that evolves over time as cultures mix. As in how certain aspects of the old toast of the day have been updated to include the new norms. I’ve yet to attend a mess dinner where the new toast has been wholly accepted, while the best aspects of the old toasts are always worked into preamble to the actual toast.

 

[dimsum]

Traditions that are randomly set by leadership aren't traditions - they're orders/policies. It's like someone trying to set up their own call-sign.

But, the military hates two things - change, and the status quo. The toasts (as an example) are traditions now, but they may have been laughed at back when they tried to set it up.

 

[FSTO]

^^
Toasts had to be started when the RN was ascendant and action with the enemy was a common occurrence. Likely the Wardroom overheard the lower decks drinking and cheering their latest prize and (soon to be drank, gambled, or whored away prize money) decided to make a series of toasts for the days of the week.
More on my Ted talk next week!

 

[Halifax Tar]

Traditions that are randomly set by leadership aren't traditions - they're orders/policies. It's like someone trying to set up their own call-sign.

Like mess dues

 

[Rifleman62]

A Tradition is anything done twice.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I always thought it was peer pressure from dead people.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Traditions that are randomly set by leadership aren't traditions - they're orders/policies. It's like someone trying to set up their own call-sign.

But, the military hates two things - change, and the status quo. The toasts (as an example) are traditions now, but they may have been laughed at back when they tried to set it up.

Great post!

Traditions in the Military are all generally developed during combat and are forged by shared hardship and bonds formed during those times.

The Ortona Toast is a great example of this. During the battle of Ortona, the RCR was running low on liquid courage so to make sure everyone still got a bit of alcohol in to them, they mixed the rum with hot water and sugar.

The Regiment had an Ortona Toast in Afghanistan as well.

The Ortona Toast, Panjwayi, Afghanistan, 21 Dec 2006

 

[Halifax Tar]

There is something to be said for going into battle with a buzz on.

 

[dimsum]

There is something to be said for going into battle with a buzz on.

Is it "yessshhhh shhhhirrrr"

faceplant

?

 

[Navy_Pete]

Maybe because a lot of the 'traditions' are being imposed as changes on things that already work or are unnecessary. The executive curl is probably a good example of a change no one was asking for, and came in at the same time the fleet was tied up because of a shortage of funds for fuel.

I guess you could argue the modern RCN (and other elements I guess) is establishing a tradition of being oblivious to reading the room when making changes to unsubstantial things, with the moustache pin and rank name changes coming to mind, but also the numerous re-orgs to all the shore organizations or trades, where we have to wait until people have retired to go back to something that actually worked.

Some of the roll backs are to things that are so old they are basically history to everyone still in uniform, effectively rejecting what traditions we've created on our own for something that previously existed. Just because it was from WW2 or earlier it seems somehow better. I'm sure back in WW2 they probably also got grief for doing things differently than veterans of WW1 did them, or what the RN folks from the age of sail did.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Traditions . . .

 

[daftandbarmy]

I've found that a tradition of high standards leading to victory are the ones to hang onto, and are shared from top to bottom.

For example, I'm pretty sure that if there was any chance of me breaking that tradition in my old regiment, my troops would have killed and eaten me with curry sauce, and then proceeded to crush the enemy without me

 

[FSTO]

Maybe because a lot of the 'traditions' are being imposed as changes on things that already work or are unnecessary. The executive curl is probably a good example of a change no one was asking for, and came in at the same time the fleet was tied up because of a shortage of funds for fuel.

I guess you could argue the modern RCN (and other elements I guess) is establishing a tradition of being oblivious to reading the room when making changes to unsubstantial things, with the moustache pin and rank name changes coming to mind, but also the numerous re-orgs to all the shore organizations or trades, where we have to wait until people have retired to go back to something that actually worked.

Some of the roll backs are to things that are so old they are basically history to everyone still in uniform, effectively rejecting what traditions we've created on our own for something that previously existed. Just because it was from WW2 or earlier it seems somehow better. I'm sure back in WW2 they probably also got grief for doing things differently than veterans of WW1 did them, or what the RN folks from the age of sail did.

I told a group of recruits that there are no new ideas in the military. All concepts are on a wheel that has a 30 year rotation. So things that will be sold to you as a new concept now; if you make a career of the mob, you’ll be the one selling the same damn thing as new prior to your retirement.

 

[dimsum]

Some of the roll backs are to things that are so old they are basically history to everyone still in uniform, effectively rejecting what traditions we've created on our own for something that previously existed. Just because it was from WW2 or earlier it seems somehow better.

WWII was the last time a significant portion of the world's citizens were in uniform. Just think about all of the movies, shows, games, books, etc about that time. WWII (and Korea, but it was "forgotten") was also the last war where there were unequivocably "good" and "bad" parties.

So there is a collective nostalgia about it, and because of all of that publicity, it's not hard to see why people (well, on the Allied side) would think that WWII = good.

German and Japanese folks may feel differently though.

I'm sure back in WW2 they probably also got grief for doing things differently than veterans of WW1 did them, or what the RN folks from the age of sail did.

Most definitely. Can't remember where I read it but the folks in warships with enclosed bridges were considered "soft" from those with open bridges. "I suffered so people who didn't suffer as much are crap" is as old as the human race.

 

[OldSolduer]

We have - as a family - tradition now of reciting Binyon’s verse at Mike’s grave on 3 Sep and 11 November. I recite it but maybe the male heir apparent- Carson - could recite it.

Thoughts?

 

[FSTO]

Can't remember where I read it but the folks in warships with enclosed bridges were considered "soft" from those with open bridges. "I suffered so people who didn't suffer as much are crap" is as old as the human race.

You likely heard it from me. Honed my skills on the open pilotages. Fantastic on a warm sunny day. The depths of hell during cold and rainy watches.

 

[dimsum]

You likely heard it from me. Honed my skills on the open pilotages. Fantastic on a warm sunny day. The depths of hell during cold and rainy watches.

Expectation:

vs Reality (or so I hear):

 

[lenaitch]

Most definitely. Can't remember where I read it but the folks in warships with enclosed bridges were considered "soft" from those with open bridges. "I suffered so people who didn't suffer as much are crap" is as old as the human race.

The other side could be 'I suffered so they must too'. Make-a-real-sailor-out-of-them type of thing. I've always figured there's an element of that in medical internship and legal articling; 'I was treated like an indentured servant, and so will you'.

 

[FJAG]

My guess is that good traditions, like bad traditions, can come from either top or bottom. It just becomes a question of whether it strikes the fancy of all folks who live under it.

If you consider the British guards regiments abandoning the shako in favour of a (French) bearskin as their headgear, it undoubtedly came from some senior officer but despite how uncomfortable and impractical it is all guards would rebel if you took it away.

One thing we all tend to forget is that every tradition has a "Day 1". We often revere old ones just because they are there without considering if they still have values and we tend to rebel against new ones simply because they aren't tradition ... yet.

 

[btrudy]

There's two real categories of traditions.

Official and unofficial. Some of the unofficial stuff may have been started from the top, but I'd say most is bottom up. The official stuff, by nature of the fact that it's got regulations or orders backing them up is usually top down, but may be categorizing stuff that initiated as bottom up.

Of those, the unofficial are far more legit. They're the things we as a group keep doing because we keep wanting to do it. Things like crossing of the line, moose milk at Christmas, commanders giving out coins. No one's mandating that we do those things; they just kinda happen because we keep wanting to do them. Heck, even the ones that I think are kinda stupid, like the trend stolen from the Americans of calling each other shipmate in the RCN, even if you've never served nor never will serve on the same ship as the person.

For the top down stuff, the question needs to be asked, would we still keep doing this if we weren't required to do so? If so, it's a bonafide tradition. If not, it's just something that we do because we're told to. If we stopped mandating remembrance day ceremonies from the top on down, do you think that we'd still end up commemorating the event? Absolutely.

If we stopped mandating the wear of headdress outdoors, do you think that a hell of a lot of people would go around hatless? Yeah, probably (temperature dependant). If we stopped mandating saluting of senior officers, how common would that practice become? Probably fairly rare (personally I'd still make a point to throw a high five up to those I personally respect, but would not for those I either don't know or don't respect).

If the only reason that a tradition still exists is because there's a rule for it, then how healthy is that tradition really? To what degree is that practice being done solely for the sake of momentum? This is when we need to ask ourselves what other benefit we get out of mandating said tradition. Is the juice worth the squeeze here? Do we cause more harm by having that tradition be a requirement than any benefit we get out of it?