The Erosion of Etiquette?

[Deleted member 585]

I couldn't agree more, RCA.

The Sr NCO dining hall here serves all ranks -- even the Base Commander eats lunch there occasionally on Fridays.  Since there is no duty NCO present, service members must police themselves.  (Draw your own conclusions).

 

[Sailing Instructor]

As a man who's greatly interested in (proper) clothes, I've noticed that there is a general 'decline' (of course I am being subjective here, but I think you all know what I mean) in, at least North American, dress standards.  Only eighty-odd years ago, there was not anything as vulgar as even black tie--only tailcoats were worn to dinner at home.  And now we wear a t-shirt and some trousers which were fit for labour eighty years ago.  The military seems to only be following the rest of the world in its style.

But you must realise that the now-almightly tailcoat which is the most formal garment a man can wear (after 1800h) was only fit for daytime riding fewer than 200 years ago and would never have been worn to dinner.  So one must accept that there seems to be a sort of 'evolution' of clothing throughout history and no matter how important tradition is, there will be changes.

Nonetheless, I must say I'd like to see mess dress and ceremonial dress make a comeback into the daily lives of us sailors, soldiers, and airmen.  If we can't rely on civvies to choose to dress themselves well, we can sure rely on the serjeants-major to make us dress well!

A caveat, however, what does one do about personnel in harried circumstances such as we who are basically-training and don't have the time to change into mess-dress (let alone own it!).  Should there be a separate dining room for those who are in combats and the like, or what? 

 

[pbi]

Having been both a Battalion Adjutant and the PMC of the Home Station Mess (when there still was such a thing...) I have had some dealings with the issue of proper dress in the Mess. Having lived the first six months of my present posting in the officer shack at Kapyong, and having taken my meals in the Combined Mess, I have some familiarity with dress in dining facilities.

First of all, I think we are being rather myopic to think that common daily practices in the military never change, or that if they change this will somehow bring about THE END OF THE ARMY AS WE KNOW IT. Rubbish. Let me illustrate.

When I joined 3 PPCLI as a new subbie in 1983, we were forbidden to bring women into the bar area of the Mess. Forbidden, plain and simple. I let my wife into the bar once during a mixed dining-in to use the phone to call home in an emergency and was taken aside afterwards by the Senior Sub and admonished never to do it again. This silly practice was solemnly described as "tradition". Needless to say, it has not survived. As well, we were required to "dress up" for every evening meal, usually in jacket and tie. We were not to wear uniform of the day unless we were the BOO or had night training. This "tradition" IMHO reflected a legacy of the lifestyle of the upper-class Victorian gentlemen who made up the Officer Corps from which we inherited many of our attitudes and traditions. Tangentially, this included a mindset that was, IMHO, anti-professional in the extreme and regarded social prowess as being at least as important as any demonstration of military knowledge or skill. This practice has also faded away, and I do not miss it.

My point then, is that common daily practices in the military are constantly evolving and changing, as are tactics, policies, equipmen and everything else about our profession. In the midst of all this change, we do well to hold onto certain important anchors such as respect for military history especially examples of bravery and sacrifice, respect for and practice of military virtues such as loyalty, honour and personal courage, and adherence to a commonly understood code of ethical professional behaviour. At the same time, we waste our time and energy worrying about why nobody wears flannels to supper anymore. Well, we don't wear a Sam Browne to the office either, we don't force soldiers to be Mess servants, and we officers don't have batmen anymore. Change happens, all the time.

Are we worse off   because we let a soldier wear a clean T-shirt and jeans to eat his supper? IMHO, probably not. I submit that the old Canadian Army that fixated so much on these issues was a far less operationally focused, far less ethical, and generally less professional Army than we are today. Now, before I am assaulted by the flannel-wavers, look up professionalism as we currently define it in our Army. (Chapter 1, page 6, Duty With Honour). Having served 30 years in this Army of ours, I submit that we are far closer today to meeting that definition than we ever were back in the days of RSMs measuring trouser cuff lengths at the barrack gate. Fire away. Cheers.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Are we worse off   because we let a soldier wear a clean T-shirt and jeans to eat his supper? IMHO, probably not. I submit that the old Canadian Army that fixated so much on these issues was a far less operationally focused, far less ethical, and generally less professional Army than we are today.

Bravo! Extremely well said.

Now, before I am assaulted by the flannel-wavers, look up professionalism as we currently define it in our Army. (Chapter 1, page 6, Duty With Honour). Having served 30 years in this Army of ours, I submit that we are far closer today to meeting that definition than we ever were back in the days of RSMs measuring trouser cuff lengths at the barrack gate.

Again - spectacular.  I have long held that the "good old days" weren't, at least as far as training and an operational; focus goes (mind you we did have more fun...)

 

[the 48th regulator]

Well here i go,

Those of you that know me I dig sandals, in the eating mess? Not Kosher.

As for Dress pants and collared shirts, mmm naw I can't wear that.  In fact if I had it my way I would wear a suit and a hat at all times.....god I was born too many years too late.  But the way things go now, different styles, but at least make your appearence clean and respectable.

Art you are bang on as always, and though I am loud in the mess you must admit I am always well dressed.  By the way Anthony Percival is getting married this weekend, I am in the wedding party!

whew, time for a beer, "Bar keep another round while I loosen my tie!"

tess

 

[jfladeroute]

Is it possible to come down firmly in the middle on this?

While I would agree that "clean and neat" are probably the only required standards for an eating mess, there is more to etiquette than merely questions of dress. For example, I have found that many young officers haven't the slightest idea of decorum or the basic rules of civil interaction (particularly with guests). 

There's nothing wrong with standards, whether for dress, haircuts or behaviour. Maintaining arbitrary standards that are no longer reflective of society in general, simply for the sake of "tradition" may be wrong (in some instances), but requiring a standard of deportment (be it in garrison, field or mess) is not. And doing so need not detract from professionalism; I don't think anyone would advocate a return to a time when one's skill with a shrimp fork was considered a measure of one's effectiveness as an officer.

Nonetheless, there are some social skills that are worth cultivating. I spend a fair portion of my job interacting with other agencies and civilians - and my behaviour does count in those circumstances. Not only does it count, but in many of these circumstances my behaviour is seen as reflecting on the entire CF (whether I like that position or not). Nice manners may not make up for lack of substance, but lack of manners can render substance moot.

Etiquette is, above all else, a social lubricant - basic rules of polite interaction (often untaught in today's increasingly "casual" society) can ease many a tense interaction.

 

[dutchie]

I think what has happened over the last few decades or so (not that I was around for a lot of that), is that we dropped a lot of the silly stupid rules (mess jacket & tie, for instance) but retained the important rules that still reflect current military culture. It might be OK to forgo the mess jacket or even the collared shirt, but a lot of people would balk at ripped jeans or a dirty uniform.

But I also see things in two distinct categories: basic manners, and military etiquette. I have less of a problem with a troop in a t-shirt,dirty combats, or PT kit than I do for the pig that belches, scratched, or farts while eating. One is more tradition, one is basic manners.

If you cannot keep your body gasses inside, your mouth closed when chewing, your hands out of your crotch, and your fingers out of your nose, please find somewhere else to eat. But if you want to eat in a t-shirt (reasonably clean), shorts, or even pt kit, you can sit next to me anytime.

 

[AmmoTech90]

I agree with the previous two posters.  Let actions speak louder than appearance.
If you don't stink, aren't covered in motor oil, and are dressed well enough to eat in a decent restaurent (that could be subjective) then by all means you should be able to eat in the mess.  If however you are dressed in a morning suit but can't be polite, well-spoken, and pleasent to be around then don't bother showing up.  There are of course times when a party is called for but common-sense applies, smokers/course parties should be private affaires.
I wen't through reg basic not that long ago (89) and I remember a briefing on ettiquette and when to salute people.  One of the times a salute was warrented was when meeting a lady of your acquaitance on the street.  This has since been removed from Drill and Cerimonial but some basic rules of manners should still apply.  During my reserve basic (87) we had a mess dinner and at least half a day on deportment and behaviour.  Is anything like this still done?  When in public behave yourself, and watch other military members so they don't make fools of themselves.  This isn't limited to young soldiers, I've seen plenty people with substantial time-in able to make you cring at their behaviour, some of whom would want you thrown out of mess for a tee-shirt as look at you.

 

[Sailing Instructor]

The way clothes evolve I often imagine a future CF where CADPAT, flight-suits, and boarding-party coveralls are the mess dress...!

But I digress, here's a question:  why can only Capt(N)s and above wear a tailcoat instead of a mess jacket?  (Or a boatcloak for that matter.)  Obviously they are senior, but I believe all naval officers used to wear white tie as their formal evening rig and I must say it surely looks better than the naval mess jacket.  The army mess jackets (with the high collar) look so idiosyncratic that they cannot be compared to any civvy dinner dress (and are beautiful in their own right) but the naval mess jacket looks like a tailcoat that has been angrily taken to with a sword after many trippings-upon.

And what is with the 'CF Standard' mess dress?  Is that just a hangover from pre-1984 rifle green? 

One last question: how many army or air people have their 'shipboard mess dress' shoulderboards? And do these people like the shoulderboard better than the slip-on? (As I do, for aesthetic reasons, obviously.)

 

[Art Johnson]

John give Anthony my best wishes, I hope you are not going to wear sandals to the Wedding, maybe Blues would be appropriate

Aye
Dileas

 

[the 48th regulator]

John give Anthony my best wishes, I hope you are not going to wear sandals to the Wedding, maybe Blues would be appropriate

Aye
Dileas

hehe will do Art, and I promise not to wear the sandals, but you must admit the blues witht the horse hair sporn and sandals could make for a new look at the regiment....

tess

 

[pbi]

One last question: how many army or air people have their 'shipboard mess dress' shoulderboards? And do these people like the shoulderboard better than the slip-on? (As I do, for aesthetic reasons, obviously.)

Its a bit hard for us Army types to answer this, because we generally wear mess kit unique to our Regiment or Branch. On top of that, there are often variations due to the age of the uniform, the rank of the wearer, personal taste, etc. In my Regiment (PPCLI) for example, we would find it a rather pedestrian lack of imagination for two Patricia officers to be dressed the same in mess kit. PPCLI Guy/Mark C. may wish to comment on this. Cheers.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

In my Regiment (PPCLI) for example, we would find it a rather pedestrian lack of imagination for two Patricia officers to be dressed the same in mess kit. PPCLI Guy/Mark C. may wish to comment on this. Cheers.

One could argue that this penchant extends beyond mess kit - especially in the field!  Of course, I see this as a good thing, and part of the unique character of our Regiment.

I actually have to get a new Mess Kit jacket.  I bought mine in Cyprus in 89, back when I weighed 175lbs.  I am quite a bit bigger in the shoulders and chest now (as well as other parts of me sadly...) and I now find it quite difficult to get my food up to my mouth - which could be a good thing I guess!

 

[big_castor]

And what is with the 'CF Standard' mess dress?   Is that just a hangover from pre-1984 rifle green?  

Yep.   Everybody was wearing the same midnight blue mess kit.   It's still the Air Force mess kit but without the collar badges.

 

[pbi]

PPCLI Guy said:

get my food up to my mouth

"food" or "foot"?  VP. Cheers.

 

[PPCLI Guy]

"food" or "foot"?   VP. Cheers.

A the eternal battle to see which I can put in my mouth first...

 

[Sailing Instructor]

Its a bit hard for us Army types to answer [whether we wear our green shoulderboards], because we generally wear mess kit unique to our Regiment or Branch. On top of that, there are often variations due to the age of the uniform, the rank of the wearer, personal taste, etc. In my Regiment (PPCLI) for example, we would find it a rather pedestrian lack of imagination for two Patricia officers to be dressed the same in mess kit.

Glad to hear about the abundance of variation, I'm all for that, especially since the mess is hardly like a 'normal' parade--no one observes a standard pause when eating their soup, so a perfectly uniform set of uniforms would loose any effect it might have (and to whom would the effect be directed?   Not too many spectators at a mess dinner!).

But are you saying that aboard ship, one doesn't usually wear 'shipboard mess dress'?   I have no experience with shipboard mess dinners and only brought it up after reading that bit about green and blue shoulderboards in the CF dress instructions.   Frankly, I'd rather not wear that abberation of dinner dress.   To me, anything with short sleeves is not 'dress.'

EDIT:  Ah, of course, forgot Shipboard mess dress is a silly bureaucratic name for 'Red sea rig:' what (officers) wore while stationed in hot climates during the days when people still had sense enough to change for dinner as long as they were not working.  Properly speaking it is not actually 'dress,' rather it is a form of mess undress in that there are no nametags, medals/ribbons, or gold lace (which are dressings).  It'd be neat to update our mess undress & wear a cummerbund with naval combat shirt & trousers.  I don't know...just throwing an idea out there.