The Erosion of Etiquette?

[Deleted member 585]

While eating supper at the all-ranks mess, a man in civilian attire entered and walked to the centre of the dining hall. He swayed to and fro and paced hither and thither as he continued his cell phone call which was in progress as he arrived. I suspended my appetite while watching for a further five minutes until he was finished. I scanned the room during this time to see if anyone else was audience to this oddity -- apparently no one was watching, especially not the guy wearing the mid-leg nylon swim trunks and sandals, with his elbows mounted bipod-like on either side of his plate with fork and knife connecting in the middle as a sort of food-bridge to his ever-open maw.

I wanted to ask him to "take it outside", but I didn‘t. I simply sat and watched, feeling my sense of mess etiquette being offended with every passing second.

Some might think me conservative, but I‘ll argue that it‘s a matter of respect to stow the gadgets at meal-time. It starts with sandals and cell-phones in the mess... next it‘s addressing your CO with "Hey, man", and installing CD players in SMP vehicles.

I allude to the bigger picture which is the erosion of traditions perpetuated by the application of a perverted notion of "human rights". Take the more poignant bits of my claptrap with a grain of salt, but consider the question seriously if you will.

If you were in a position to effect change (or not), with respect to indulging the whims of service members, what would you do?

 

[Slim]

Wow...Things sure have changed. I don‘t think for the better. It sounds like people are treating the messhall as a sort of restaurant rather than the queen‘s eating establishment.

Is there no longer a duty Cpl/Sgt to sort these offenders out?

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Every year for a while I have done my ICIT training at Bordon or Meaford and I can‘t say that I noticed any change from when I was in.
And there were duty NCO‘s.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I‘ve noticed lately people tend to get out of hand in the eating mess. I hate to admit it but most of what i‘ve seen is from the reserves. you go in and wait in line for food and two old friends see each other that they havne‘t seen in a few months and it‘s like the end of the world.

How the **** are you i havent seen your stupid ****ing *** in ages what the **** have you been up to.

When you sit down it‘s the same thing. People telling stories, shouting to be heard, making what they think are clever comments towards whatever is on tv. Every second word is the F word. In a drinking mess its one thing, theres children, guys wifes and civilian contractors etc.. in the kitchen too. I don‘t have an opinion about the dress code, i find them a little annoying at times but i‘d say behavior etiquette needs some work.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Profanity is the inability of a feeble mind to fully express itself.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I‘ve seen Sergeants at the armoury talking on cell phones on the **** parade square. It‘s too sad for words, really.

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

The way I understand it, the prohibition of sandals in dining rooms has always been based on a "hygiene" issue. I don‘t think that‘s really reasonable. Unless I‘m putting my feet in other people‘s food, why does it matter if I‘m wearing sandals without socks?

While I agree that a certain amount of decorum is always desireable, I think it‘s a little bit incongrous to expect people to put on a dinner jacket and tie just for the privilege of bellying up to the steam line at the mess. We aren‘t talking fine dining here. Frankly, unless a guy is wearing dirty, tattered clothing, or clothing printed with obscene graphics or slogans, I don‘t see a huge problem.

I guess the question is just one of where you draw the line. I agree with the tone of the original post in that some of the things I‘ve seen lately are taking things too far, but on the other hand, some of the more outmoded rules need to be changed.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Originally posted by willy:
[qb] The way I understand it, the prohibition of sandals in dining rooms has always been based on a "hygiene" issue. I don‘t think that‘s really reasonable. Unless I‘m putting my feet in other people‘s food, why does it matter if I‘m wearing sandals without socks? [/qb]

Because no one want to smell your feet, perhaps, buttercup?

 

[Ex Ranger Instructor]

And you haven‘t ever smelled anyone‘s feet when they were wearing something other than sandals?

The issue is with people not taking proper hygiene measures for themselves, not their choice of footwear.

 

[Marauder]

Using common curtousy towards fellow diners in an eating establishment is one thing.

Wanting to live in the past using Victorian-era ideals is quite another.

While the mess may in some outdated way "belong to the Queen", that doesn‘t mean we should have to act like she‘s going to show up to dine there every night. Come on in to the 21st century, people.

 

[Slim]

Originally posted by Marauder:
[qb]
While the mess may in some outdated way "belong to the Queen", that doesn‘t mean we should have to act like she‘s going to show up to dine there every night. Come on in to the 21st century, people. [/qb]

One of the things that defines us as a race is history and tradition. We do an awful lot to maintain these "codes of conduct" in order to be able to co-exist with one another without having to use force or violence (which was why manners were invented in the first place).

A military mess in times past was not just a place for you to come in and carry on like its you favourite (or closest) restaurant. There is alot of ceremony and history accociated with a military mess (not only the drinking one either).

If mess etiquette is not being followed its because it‘s probably not being taught and/or enforced. The dresscode in my time was not a dinner jacket but good pants (not jeans) and a collered shirt (golf shirts were o.k.). I don‘t see that as unreasonalble at all?

Slim

 

[ZipperHead]

In most messhalls, if the Base Chief Warrant Officer comes in and sees someone out of dress (ie muscle shirt and sandals) two people get a reaming: the perpetrator and the duty NCO. The dirt bag for being a dirt bag, and the duty NCO for allowing the dirt bag in. If people are unwilling to do their DUTY, it is time to replace them with someone who will.

As Slim said, it really isn‘t too much to ask to have people show up in respectable clothes to dine. If you allow that to slide, people take advantage of it and show up wearing shower sandals and dirty PT gear. For those of you that don‘t like the standards, Release Section would be happy to process your paperwork (but please be properly turned out....)

Speaking of that... It used to be, you would clear in and out of Base in DEU (full dress uniform), and then it went to dress of the day (usually combats), and then civilians. Some people took advantage of this, and decided to show up in what they would wear to the beach.

Al

 

[MJP]

I agree with Marauder on this one.

People pay a ridiculous amount of money a month to eat at the mess(depending on the program they choose). When I was a troop I use to hate putting on socks just to go eat at the mess hall when I was wearing sandals. It was a silly policy then, and I think that it‘s still a silly policy now. As Willy said I don‘t stick my feet into the food.

As for clothes, as long as it‘s not ripped, and isn‘t obscene or dirty...go ahead and eat. I never went in sweaty PT gear or knew anyone that did. For heavens sake most people‘s combats are dirtier than their civvies clothes and I don‘t see the DUTY NCO sending anyone packing at lunch time when people show up with slightly dirty combats(heaven forbid you deprive some fat body from his donair .

That being said certain things are common courtesy(or not so common courtesy) ANYWHERE you eat.
-No rude smells of any kind
-No cell phones(I want to rip them out of peoples hands and throw them).
-No loud conversations for the entire time you are seated!

Maybe those that can‘t adapt to change should slide on by the release section and check it out

 

[Armymedic]

Oh how I wanna wade in on this but I‘ll leave it to one simple thought:

There is no good reason (medical, hygiene, etc) for pers to not be allowed to wear sport or dress sandals (not shower flip flop like the Canex sells for $0.99) in our eating establishments.

 

[48Highlander]

Yes, let‘s release people because they talk too loud in the mess. Great idea.

 

[muskrat89]

I think people should dress/wear/act however they want in the Mess. As long as it doesn‘t affect me... To think otherwise would be intolerant and narrow-minded. Many of these rules are archaic and outdated. In lots of other cultures in the world, they eat in bare feet, use their fingers, etc. We need to adapt our policies, so they grow with the new world out there.. I have known many people with absolutely wretched table manners - but to them, it was just a different way of doing things. They were fine people, otherwise - and eating to them was feeding their bodies - nothing more ritualistic than that...

Sorry - couldn‘t resist

 

[Infanteer]

Since were on the topic of the mess, I will add something about the food. When I was in Wainwright or Edmonton, the food was generally very good and the cooks pretty on the ball.

My only complaint was about the amount of deserts and bad foods (ie French Fries, hotdogs, and other things of no nutritional value). I‘m no health nazi but shouldn‘t we keep a tight ship in the crap food department considering the problems our military has with overweight soldiers.

 

[dannybou]

I must admit in reading these replies that things have changed greatly since my time in the military (1980 to 1984). I won‘t reply to this thread as I am only starting to get involved in the discussions but I must just say that I am disappointed with some of the comments. Regards to all.

 

[Infanteer]

Well, care to back that statement with a reason, or are you just going to call us all poopie-heads and then walk away?

 

[Gryphon]

alright... i find that as soldier‘s we have a responsability to
a) hold up tradition [never mess with tradition.. it‘s sacred]
b) have a higher level of standards then the general population. I‘m sorry, but while eating, i dont‘ want to smell your feet, or see them. it‘s not the place. You‘re going there to eat, not to relax. I have no problem with sandels in the wet mess.. that‘s the place to relax and screw around. That‘s your place (be it JR‘s, SNCOs or officer‘s) to drink, to relax, and to have fun.. wear what you want there (to a certain level).

as with the noise level, no one wants to hear what you and jane doe did last night... keep it for the shacks or something. and keep it to a normal tone.. yeah, bursting out laughing is normal.. you can‘t control that, but you don‘t have to yell at the top of your lungs.