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The Election

  • Thread starter Thread starter SFontaine
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We should select our riding representatives based on what each party's leader "looks like"?  If that isn't a suggestion that we need some sort of competency test to qualify to vote, I don't know what is.

I am certain the NDP's platform looks attractive to a great many people.  Who doesn't like the idea of helping themselves to the contents of someone else's pocket?  Does it ever occur to anyone to instead question whether the federal government has any business whatsoever delivering social programs?

Canada is a large and diverse country - geographically and culturally.  What are the odds that an inherently bureaucratic organization (government) will design optimal programs to efficiently deal with problems everywhere?  It is almost certain that it can not.  Government has a ponderous decision cycle and is self-encumbered by regulations designed to cushion every possible discomfort and uncertainty.

Five years ago I thought western separatism was a bad idea.  I now think it would be a very interesting and useful experiment to have BC and Alberta separate and establish a new, republican federation in which mass transfers of wealth between regions is nigh impossible.  Then wait and see how long it takes for Ontario to join.  Then watch while the rest of Canada deals with a dried up money tap.
 
There's just too much at stake right now to experiment with Consrvatives just because they promised an extra 1.6 Billion dollars to the DND. Besides that one attribute, a conservative government would be far inferior and less effcient.
:cdn:
 
First things first....

I'm not military.   I'm a 30-year who runs two small Canadian companies who is a Military, Economics and Politics buff....and as such lurk here as you guys do a great job of centralizing all Canadian Military Information in one place.

That being said, after reading some of the comments in this thread I literally HAD to register for this board just to be able to post a rebuttal.

First, Paul Martin's fine leadership did not save the countries finances.

What did you ask?
1)   The Conservatives GST (which Martin promised to cancel) to the tune of $20 billion per year in additional tax revenues
2)   Paul Martin's Hack & Slash of Provincial Transfer Payments ($6 billion) which have resulted in the inadequate Healthcare & Education Systems we now have in place.
3)   Falling interest rates.   (don't kid yourself, they've been responsible for upwards of $5 billion in reduced carrying costs from year-to-year)
4)   A crashed $CDN which although it allowed Canadian Exporters to be very profitable and thus pay a great deal in taxes, dramatically lowered our standard-of-living.

As a sidebar, the debt at it's highest level was approaching $550 billion.   It is now at $510 billion.   Our carrying costs (interest paid without paying down any principle) on that debt is still in excess of $35 billion or 21% of all tax revenues collected.   The debt is still a major issue and the one thing I was hoping to hear from Harper that I haven't yet is a Legislated Debt Repayment Policy.   Even if it's only 1% per year....that's still $5.1 billion which in turn provides Canadians with a Fiscal Responsibility Dividend of $500 million/year to spend in perpetuity.  

Short Version:   Don't believe the hype re: Martin.   The only good thing he did was not flush the budgetary surpluses   that others created (or he created on the backs of the provinces) down the toilet which it appears he wants to do now....


Cheers,


Matthew.   ;)

 
Thanks for your input Blackshirt, we hope that you will stick with us and contribute to our conversations more in the future.

Cheers
 
Cdn Blackshirt said:
4)   A crashed $CDN which although it allowed Canadian Exporters to be very profitable and thus pay a great deal in taxes, dramatically lowered our standard-of-living.

Well then, you shouldn't be complaining..
I've visited the Conservative Party Of Canada website and the only benefit I see of voting conservative is increased financial support for our armed forces:

"Supporting our Canadian Forces
They do us proud. Whether serving here at home or on peacekeeping missions abroad, Canada's military is a great source of pride. But unfortunately, pride is not enough. The Liberals are starving our armed forces. A Conservative government will invest in our military and provide them with the quality equipment they need to achieve the difficult tasks we ask of them."

The consevatives also declare a tax break:

"The Liberal government is collecting about $1,500 more in taxes per Canadian than it did ten years ago. That is an annual $6,000 increase for a family of four. Ask yourself, are you getting more value for that money? Should taxes stay this high when the government is wasting so much? We believe the answer to these questions is No. That's why The Conservative Party will reduce your taxes."

- I don't see how tax cuts can improve the wealth of Canadians, tax breaks mean less government spending, that translates into less money entering the private sector - a proven fact (most people actually believe that with the money saved Canadians will invest and consume, boosting the economy). Besides, the Liberals have a great relationship and thus full cooperation with the Bank of Canada - a decisive issue when it comes to national fiscal policies.

Health care and education - the conservatives have previously demonstrated their innability to create and sustain an effective and efficient system of social health care and have done even worse with the public education system by trying to privatize it entirely. Both dismal failures.
Accountability - just looking at Harper you can tell he is a false and misleading figure, corruption will mostly likely be on the rise once elected.
 
Explain how less government spending means less money entering the private sector?  You've go the most effed up view of economics I've ever heard. 

Health Care is a lousy point.  You can't say the Conservatives previously demonstrated anything, because its been over a decade since they've been in.  Plus, the conservatives today are not the same conservatives of before.

And your point about Harper.  OH BOY, YOU CAN JUST TELL HE'S EVIL.... LOOK AT THOSE EYES!!!
 
Harper needs a haircut.

I see some great points and counterpoints posted here. Some good reading.

I agree with what GirlFiredUp said on page 8

IMHO, none of these leaders are worthy of representing this country.
 
>I don't see how tax cuts can improve the wealth of Canadians, tax breaks mean less government spending, that translates into less money entering the private sector - a proven fact (most people actually believe that with the money saved Canadians will invest and consume, boosting the economy).

I almost strangled while laughing after I read this.  What, pray tell, do you think Canadians can do with money other than spend or invest it?  Merely leaving it in the bank constitutes useful investment, and I don't believe for a second that anyone is stuffing mattresses and taking money out of circulation.  Further, what are your grounds for believing that a dollar in government hands achieves more good than a dollar in private hands?  It is almost axiomatic that government gets less good out of a unit of currency than free enterprise.  Hordes of people acting in their own interests inevitably will elicit a greater good than government.

And why do people persist in believing that education and health care are in crisis?

Regarding post-secondary education, I crunched some data: my daily rate as a reserve private in 1983 paid for less of my combined tuition and room/board than the daily rate for a reserve private does now (based on UBC's suggested figures for a first-year student).  Similarly, it would take fewer hours at current minimum wage (in BC) to pay today's expenses than to pay 1983's expenses using 1983's minimum wage.  My guess is that education is _relatively more affordable_ now.  The real constraint on post-secondary education is rising entrance requirements due to demand outstripping supply.  (And that has led to grade inflation in secondary schools, which results in some very crestfallen first-years who believed they really were "A" students.)

Regarding health care, we don't have as effective a system as we could _for the money we currently expend_.  But I disagree that more money is the solution; I believe that more privatization of delivery is the solution.  If you want more of a service, create opportunities for people to make a profit providing it.
 
Mr Sallows, you beat me too it.

I don't see how tax cuts can improve the wealth of Canadians, tax breaks mean less government spending, that translates into less money entering the private sector - a proven fact (most people actually believe that with the money saved Canadians will invest and consume, boosting the economy). Besides, the Liberals have a great relationship and thus full cooperation with the Bank of Canada - a decisive issue when it comes to national fiscal policies.

Your shitting me, right?

Since Brad pretty much nailed it down, all I have to say is you need a lesson in economics that does not involve the words "Das" and "Kapital".

Health care and education - the conservatives have previously demonstrated their innability to create and sustain an effective and efficient system of social health care and have done even worse with the public education system by trying to privatize it entirely. Both dismal failures.

Again Brad hit the nail on the head.   Considering the sum total of my undergraduate degree was less than $16,000 (tuition and books) I can't see why anyone complains about post-secondary costs; I guess it just goes to show how spoiled Canadians have become when they protest tuition hikes (see: helping themselves to someone elses pocket).   Regarding health care, considering almost 1 out of every 5 tax dollars goes to health care, there is no excuse for the inefficent system we have today (I agree with private delivery of services).   However, this is a systemic problem that is beyond party politics; again I blame it on the spoiled (and uneducated) Canadian who cries foul whenever someone advocates reform.   I guess I level blame at Martin for trying to use the big Health Care boogy man to pray on those (uneducated) fears and attack Martin.

Accountability - just looking at Harper you can tell he is a false and misleading figure, corruption will mostly likely be on the rise once elected.

Only an idiot would base accountability on a bad hair cut.
 
Economic wisdom says the gov't save during good times, and runs deficits during bad times. Over time they will balance each other out. As these are good times, the gov't should be saving the surplus for when the economy does (not if) have a downturn. Then the gov't can run a deficit by spending and spurring economic growth. Deficits have become a dirty word, and now gov't have forced themselves into a corner by promising balanced budgets (some by legislation) and tax cutting at the same time. So when the economy has a downturn, they will be forced to cut programs, or tax back what they gave a way.

As for tax breaks spurring the economy, what size should they be? Definably not 1-2%. Not large enough to have an effect. Lower interest rates accomplish more. And during good times, an influx of disposable income could spur inflation, therefore raising interest rates, defeating its purpose. During bad times, the average Canadian will save the money, therefore not contributing to economic growth. The issue of simply cutting taxes is not a simple as it seems. Capitalism and Socialisms can be good as long as not taken to extremes.

Your belief in the size and influence of gov't generally decides where you fall on the political spectrum. I personal believe in a totally non-profit health care system. I think it is a slippery slope we start down by introducing profit elements into the system. Worse case scenario at the end is some family not being able to afford to take their children to the doctor because they can't afford it. Because you have more money, does that some how make you better, and entitled to faster health care. I feel any profit element will slow but surely siphon off resources from the current system. Education could be next. Proof is in Alberta, kindergarten isn't free and therefore not universally attended. Is this giving those children that can attend an advantage over those that can't simply based on monetary means.

As for those that said that no leader is worthy, who do you consider worthy â “ Don Cherry! I think people (most anyway) get into politics because they think they can make a difference. And for the most part they are well intentioned. For all the media hype over Question Period, the real work is never seen, done by backbenchers quietly plodding away. Politicians tell us what we want to hear, so it partially our own faults because we rather have a 10 sec sound bite rather then learning about the issues. No issue is as obvious as it sounds. Tougher law and order, then that means more inmates staying longer, then more jails, guards and justice bureaucracy, and then you want a tax cut on top of that. The gov't is a zero sum game. Add somewhere, and then must take away somewhere else. And downsizing the Governor-General's (and lets not forget, she is our head of sate) budget isn't going to chance anything as it is peanuts. And the same goes for Foreign Aid, which I feel is a moral issue and we have an obligation to help those less fortunate then ourselves.

Sorry about length, but the last thing is, if you don't vote, you have absolutely no right to bitch about anything. Voting can included entering an empty ballot. So if you intend to vote, lets debate the issues. If you don't think it will make a difference, shut up, because you don't here either.
 
Good post sir.

personal believe in a totally non-profit health care system. I think it is a slippery slope we start down by introducing profit elements into the system. Worse case scenario at the end is some family not being able to afford to take their children to the doctor because they can't afford it. Because you have more money, does that some how make you better, and entitled to faster health care. I feel any profit element will slow but surely siphon off resources from the current system.

Do you think you are mixing two issues together; namely medicare and services.   Going with a public/private split doesn't change the fact that all Canadians are entitled to public health insurance, whether they can afford private insurance or not.   I believe Australia has a system like this in place, perhaps Wesley has a little more knowledge on the subject.

Sorry about length, but the last thing is, if you don't vote, you have absolutely no right to bitch about anything. Voting can included entering an empty ballot. So if you intend to vote, lets debate the issues. If you don't think it will make a difference, shut up, because you don't here either.

We definitely agree on something.
 
The problem with the mixing, is as I said the slippery slope. As a doctor's income increases, the more he will shy away from public service as it cuts into his income. The same with free standing clinics. The further you follow the analogy, you see the making of a two tied system. For profit hospitals will draw the best leaving the rest for those who can't afford the system.

If we look at the legal aid system that pays lawyers to represent the intergent, you see that the lawyers constantly complain that it is not worth their while to defend legal aid clients and threaten withdrawal of services if fees aren't increased. Now transfer that scenario to the health system with for- profit doctors. Not much of a stretch.

as for insurance after watching auto and other rates sky rocket, do you really want them to get a foothold in the health care system.

For those who want faster service.  get private insurance and then go to the States for treatment.
 
Infanteer has already outlined the common Canadian confusion over   the difference between health care insurance and health care delivery.

Consider this analogy: automobile insurance and collision repair.   Whether your insurer is public or private, you will probably find that your insurer is not also in the collision repair business.   You pay premiums.   You might have to pay a deductible when you make a claim.   You probably have the freedom to choose a repair shop.   Your insurer pays the repair shop.

Consider a closer analogy: dental insurance and care.   Your dental insurer probably does not run a stable of dentists and hygienists.   Now just change from user-   and employer- paid premiums, to a government-funded insurance plan.   Public insurance, private delivery.

Most Canadian pay health care premiums.   The bulk of it is in the form of taxes; there may also be a token component in the form of provincial health care premiums and there may be token user fees.   Mostly, taxpayers pay premiums which are heavily scaled to means.   When you need medical care, you doubtless have the freedom to choose the hospital, clinic, doctor, etc.   The insurer (provincial government, or DND) pays the provider.

The government can be wholly, partially, or not at all involved in the health care delivery business.

As long as there is universal public insurance, no family will be unable to afford health care.   The issue is completely disconnected from whether the delivery system is profitless or not.   If government is the sole insurer, it can be a non-profit insurer since it effectively just takes what is needed in the form of taxes.   In theory it has some pricing advantage over a for-profit insurer.   Maybe government is less efficient bureaucratically (no profit motive), and some or all of the advantage disappears.   I don't know, but I accept public health insurance as a good worthy of whatever it costs.

However, more private delivery introduces competitive motivations. Fair competition and relatively free markets act to minimize prices and encourage suppliers to meet demand.   (Otherwise, government should control everything.   Does anyone still believe that's the correct solution?)   Despite Romanow's desire for someone to prove private delivery would be more cost-effective, I believe the burden of proof is on the proponents of public delivery to demonstrate why the health care industry acts differently than any other in a free market.

The other advantage is that private delivery removes governments from negotiations with health care unions.   This means anti-union governments will not be in a position to impose conditions, and pro-union governments will not be in a position to buy votes.   That alone is probably worth the cost of privatization of delivery.

[Add: the fear that the "best" doctors will all migrate to a private system inaccessible to the rest of us is an empty hypothesis.  It has not come to pass in socialized countries which have wholly or fully private delivery.  The really profit-obsessed people have already left Canada or set up to deliver non-essential, profitable services in those niches they currently occupy.  At least if you allow people the opportunity to maximize their potential, they will stay here.  At least if you allow the rich to buy health care in Canada, the money stays here.  I frankly have no interest in pissing talent and money away just to spite the rich.]
 
I shook hands with Stephen Harper today.  I know you're all jealous. ;)
 
There is no perfect health system and generally a lack of concesus as what constitues one. For a healthy person, it comes down how much you are willing to pay (taxes, premiums, direct cash outlay etc) to subside to those that use it. To those not as healthy, you would want the chaepest syatem to you personally. We stad, I think is by matter of degree.  I think it was amistake when medicare came in that Dentists and Optomtrists were not included. for those who don't have company insuance, do forgo going to the dentist because of the cost?

Okay, another topic that sepaetaes the left and right:

Social Welfare-  How many out there are only 1-2 pay cheques away from the poor house. We are a lot closer to it then we would like to think if we are honest with ourselves. Of course if we lost our livelihood, we would like to think we would do everything possible to get back into the job market. But suppose you can't because you don't have the necessary tools, or due to age (over 45 and you are probably over the hill in getting another job). Is this your fault?

As before, where you think is where you fall on the spectrum. There are this that feel we have an obligation to look after the less fortunate, and those that feel that with motivation and hard work you will get ahead and if you don't its your own fault. Although there are glaring cases of those that milk the system, I think these are the minority, even though they get the lion's share of the media and politicians attention. What about those that are on social welfare, get a part time job to get ahead, and have the wages are deducted from the assistance cheque. My feeling is that a majority needs theses services. So it comes down to, do we punish all because of a few well-published abuses. I know the counter argument is that let private investment (though tax cuts and less gov't interference) create economic growth which increases jobs that these people can get. But the private sector motive is profit not social policy; the jobs are just a by-product and can come as go as the bottom line dictates.

Here is food for thought. Economics implies that we should not have a fully employed labour market. There must be some slack. There is no way that all able-bodied persons between 18 and 65 can be employed. We would have a flooded market, which would drive wages downward. As well, companies that slash their labour costs (through not hiring or laying off) are rewarded by higher shared prices. Therefore we will always have members of this society that are not employed, not will be. This, as well as the move to lower wages (another labour cost saving), means the private sector pushes the problem of subsistence on to the gov't to solve or ignore.

I feel that we have a moral obligation to look after those less fortunate. This is where I fall on the political spectrum. I think when some say that the welfare bums should get out and be productive, it may not be as easy as it sounds. As for workfare, is that really productive and what are the differences between that and a chain gang?

Here's another proposition.  You take a cut in pay and/or hours, so that your company can hire someone else and make them productive members of society. Honestly, I am not willing to do that. And I am not confusing EI with Social Assistance. My feeling on that is instead of cutting benefits, they should be increased to recipients, so as they are able to put more back into the economy while they look for work. 

This is another long-winded post, but this being an election, issues should be discussed and debate. This is my view, and I admit is flawed in places but it is food for thought.
 
Social Welfare-  How many out there are only 1-2 pay cheques away from the poor house. We are a lot closer to it then we would like to think if we are honest with ourselves. Of course if we lost our livelihood, we would like to think we would do everything possible to get back into the job market. But suppose you can't because you don't have the necessary tools, or due to age (over 45 and you are probably over the hill in getting another job). Is this your fault?

The military is looking for a few good men (and women).  It infuriates me to see these kids with funny coloured hair sitting infront of cups on Robson street, squeegeeing peoples windows, and complaining about the lack of free housing when this country has so many things a fit, young person could be doing.

As before, where you think is where you fall on the spectrum. There are this that feel we have an obligation to look after the less fortunate, and those that feel that with motivation and hard work you will get ahead and if you don't its your own fault. Although there are glaring cases of those that milk the system, I think these are the minority, even though they get the lion's share of the media and politicians attention. What about those that are on social welfare, get a part time job to get ahead, and have the wages are deducted from the assistance cheque. My feeling is that a majority needs theses services. So it comes down to, do we punish all because of a few well-published abuses. I know the counter argument is that let private investment (though tax cuts and less gov't interference) create economic growth which increases jobs that these people can get. But the private sector motive is profit not social policy; the jobs are just a by-product and can come as go as the bottom line dictates.

Yes, there are the glaring errors.  However, it is the systemic drains in the social welfare system that worry me.

For example, Canada's Native population is actually better off living on the dole.  By staying on their reserve, which often offers no oppurtunity for employment, they can retain many of their benefits (which other Canadians do not enjoy) and as such make more by living on welfare than actually going out into the workforce, where a low skillset would force them to accept minimum wages.

Its broken situations like this that lead me to criticize social spending, and I could find many more examples.  Obviously, we cannot just say "Stop Social Spending", because it would leave many people hanging.  But constructive ideas must be built into the system to move them from a drain on society to a productive member.

Here is food for thought. Economics implies that we should not have a fully employed labour market. There must be some slack. There is no way that all able-bodied persons between 18 and 65 can be employed. We would have a flooded market, which would drive wages downward. As well, companies that slash their labour costs (through not hiring or laying off) are rewarded by higher shared prices. Therefore we will always have members of this society that are not employed, not will be. This, as well as the move to lower wages (another labour cost saving), means the private sector pushes the problem of subsistence on to the gov't to solve or ignore.

Your right, unemployment is unavoidable.  There will always be structural unemployment (persons must upgrade their skills to be employed at an available job) and frictional unemployment (unemployment due to people switching jobs for personal reasons, moving, interests, etc.).  For cyclical unemployment, we do need a safety net so that people who are in dire straits are not forced onto the streets; the Great Depression has shown us that we also need a safety net for when the rug is pulled from under the government as well.

I have seen good ideas of limiting welfare payments to a culmulative of 2 or 3 years in total.  That way, the net is there for those who need it, and those who wish to not work out of laziness can squander it if they so chose, but the tap will eventually run dry on them.

I feel that we have a moral obligation to look after those less fortunate. This is where I fall on the political spectrum. I think when some say that the welfare bums should get out and be productive, it may not be as easy as it sounds. As for workfare, is that really productive and what are the differences between that and a chain gang?

I feel we have the moral obligation to look after those who have been put out of work for reasons beyond their control.  However, I am against the idea that I should give over a quater of my wealth to others just because they are "less fortunate".  Human beings are remarkably different in abilities and ambitions. Should someone who manages to make $100,000 be penalized for his success by making him support someone who doesn't seem interested in doing anything else then working in a 7/11 and making babies.  A free and open society such as Canada allows for people to maximize their potential; it is not my fault if they chose not to.

Here's another proposition.  You take a cut in pay and/or hours, so that your company can hire someone else and make them productive members of society. Honestly, I am not willing to do that. And I am not confusing EI with Social Assistance. My feeling on that is instead of cutting benefits, they should be increased to recipients, so as they are able to put more back into the economy while they look for work.

Punish people for success?  EI is something I see routinely abused; two examples are military reservists returning from a class C contract overseas and going onto EI instead of returning to civilian employment; the other is employees of my family business, who take advantage of a situation in order to go on EI instead of staying at work.

A system that allows for laziness will breed laziness.

This is another long-winded post, but this being an election, issues should be discussed and debate. This is my view, and I admit is flawed in places but it is food for thought.

Long-winded or not, its best we get these issues these issues to the fore and better educate ourselves on what we a really voting for; otherwise we are just falling pray to demagouges.
 
It is normal for people to be one or two paydays away from crisis, although not necessarily the poor house.  Yet we seem to be able to muddle along pretty well.  At least we are no longer one late spring, dry summer, or early winter away from famine.

I agree that the fraud artists and the perennially lazy are a small minority, and they will always be there.  We should accept that there will always be water in the bilges and just make sure we make a reasonable effort to pump it out.  I also agree that the system is not optimally designed to encourage people to move up the income spectrum.  There are a couple of points I would cherry-pick out of the NDP's shopping list, one of them being (if I understand it) to increase the basic personal exemption to $15K (and the other is the desire to push more money down to municipalities).

The bigger you make the social cushion, the more people sit on it and the longer they stay on it.  The normal level of unemployment should probably be around 2%.  It is mostly socialist policy, not capitalist policy, that tends to inflate unemployment numbers.  I would choose to wholly eliminate minimum wages.  Welfare rates are a de facto minimum wage.  Maybe reduction of benefits should be scaled non-linearly to gains in employed income (ie. not 1:1, but initially 1:n - I have no idea what would be optimal for "n" - and increasing to unity in stages).  This would make welfare nearly indistinct from a guaranteed minimum income, but it should be a very low income and there may be other conditions to be met.

Reducing the work week isn't very effective unless we simultaneously eliminate all, or nearly all, of the financial impediments to job creation.  I would prefer to eliminate all of the employer-paid payroll taxes and move them over (along with, initially, an equivalent increase in gross pay) to where we can see them as deductions.  If the cost and continued burden of creating new full-time jobs is near zero, employers will be less likely to seek dodges such as part-time and overtime hours.
 
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