TCAT-PCAT info and questions ( merged )

[RHFC_piper]

I've searched around the boards for this and managed to find some answers to my questions... but not to all of them... and I didn't want to open up a thread from 2005 to answer questions which are only slightly related to the topic.  So, I figured I'd fire up this thread and see where it goes.  As with all other posts; Mods, feel free to move/merge/delete.

So here's my issue;  with out going into crazy background details... since everyone already knows... here is my current situation.  I have been on TCAT since September 06.  I returned to work June 07 and am restricted to "clerical work only"... which basically means I'm chairborne... which isn't necessarily a bad thing... but it's not like I'm able to do much else anyway. 

So... moving right along;  I am up for a medical in April which will determine, or will be used to determine my PCAT... or so I'm told.

Now, My first question was going to be; what does this all mean?  Which was already answered in THIS thread... which is the thread I was going to post in, but decided not to open up an old topic.

Your file has gone to DMed Pol because your new PCAt is below your trade specs, which is the normal thing that happens. Two options which may occur:

1. your deemed unfit for your trade and therefor unemployable...you either be offerd a medical OT or given a medical release.
2. your accommodated as still being employable in your trade and you'll carry on doing your job with medical limitations. (more likely if you are MCpl or above)

It depends what the MO has written on your medical/2088 as your employment limitations.

So... there it is... first question answered.
Which leaves me with a couple other questions;

1) Has this system changed at all to reflect the changes to policy regarding members retaining employment with the CF (eg CANFORGEN 116/04 EXTENSION OF CLASS C RESERVE SERVICE FOR INJURY OR ILLNESS WHILE IN SDA/SDO)?

2) How does this system work for PRes?

3) In regards to the '2 choices' in the quoted text;
      a) WRT option 1: my understanding of CF policy (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that all members must past fitness testing annually no matter the trade, so how does this effect an OT?  Would not the default setting for this be medical release, since, at present, I couldn't pass a fit test? 
      b) WRT option 2: what is the likelihood of an non-leadership rank (eg CPL) being offered employment retention with PCAT?

4) Can PCAT and/or Limitations be contested?  If I am given limitations in April, and I improve by September (or whenever) can I challenge the PCAT or is it, as the name states, "permanent"?

A few of my other questions were answered in some other threads, but just to clarify;
- Can members on PCAT / TCAT be promoted?  My understanding is "No"... especially to leadership ranks
- Can members on PCAT / TCAT be put on course? (eg. PLQ).  I figure the answer to this is "no" due to the physical limitations. 
Like I said, these questions have been answered, but I just wanted to clarify. 

Anyway, I'm starting to worry a bit about my options for staying in the forces.
I've been given some very generous options, including going back to college and retaining a class C or B contract for a while, and I plan on making the most of it... but, what happens after that?  I would like to remain in the CF even just as a class A reservist... Ideally, I would love to do another tour or CT to the RegF in a trade relating to my College ed (EME)... but it just doesn't seem to be in the cards.
I'm just looking at the long term and, in the way of my CF 'career', it looks pretty bleak.

Any thoughts on this?



BTW; I do intend on passing my issues up my CoC, I just want to go into this with some insight and information.

 

[Gunner98]

Ref: DAOD 5023-1 Minimum Operational Standards Related to Universality of Service  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5023/1_e.asp

Period of Retention Subject to Employment Limitations: PRes
the earlier of:
- the period of the shortage or requirement described in the Retention Subject to Employment Limitations block; or
- a period of three years.

The period of retention during which a CF member is subject to employment limitations only applies while the CF member is serving in his or her current component or sub-component and may not be transferred to another component or sub-component.

Career Implications:

Any period of retention subject to employment limitations is a transitional period of service leading to release from the Reg F or P Res. During this period the CF member is expected to perform all military duties except those related to the CF member’s employment limitations. During the period of retention, a CF member:

- remains liable for posting for service requirements only;
- is not eligible for career courses (see DAOD 5031-8, Canadian Forces Professional Development); and
- is only eligible for promotion if he or she meets the applicable promotion criteria.

Upon completion of a period of retention subject to employment limitations, a CF member is only eligible to be considered for a component or sub-component transfer to the Supp Res, Canadian Rangers or CIC.

This is the policy - extracted for PRes only, more info in Ref.

Some people will talk about 'accommodation' - this is the maximum 3-year period indicated above. 

You can have up to maximum of 4 TCat (1 x TCat and 3 6-month extensions) for a total of 2 years prior to being placed on PCat.

 

[RHFC_piper]

Ref: DAOD 5023-1 Minimum Operational Standards Related to Universality of Service  http://www.admfincs.forces.gc.ca/admfincs/subjects/daod/5023/1_e.asp

Thank you very much for the Reference... I'm really bad at finding these things on the DIN.  To me, the DIN is just a big mess of files in no discernible order... and since I don't/didn't know what I'm looking for, it only makes it worse.  Thank you again.

Some people will talk about 'accommodation' - this is the maximum 3-year period indicated above. 

You can have up to maximum of 4 TCat (1 x TCat and 3 6-month extensions) for a total of 2 years prior to being placed on PCat.

hmmm.... after reading the REF; my options are looking bleaker and bleaker... 
So, with no leadership trg, and no chance of getting on a crse, I am basically a CFL... if I am retained, that is... or at least while I have PCAT restrictions.

This still leaves me the question of: Can a PCAT be contested and/or overturned if the member shows physical improvement?

 

[RHFC_piper]

Thank you for all the info    I guess I have some reading to do.

This will help a lot. 

Cheers. :cheers:

 

[BernDawg]

Hey Piper.  I am on PCAT and have been since I broke my legs in 93.  I was retained without restrictions in a different trade (was a grunt now a Const Tech).  So I guess you could say I know a little about the system.  You can be reassessed at any time just maintain good contact with the MO and if you can handle more physical stuff in the future let him know and they will schedule a medical and update your CAT. However this is a two way street.  If your conditions worsens then they will increase your CAT accordingly.
Shoot me a PM if you need more info.
Bern

 

[PPCLI Guy]

Piper,

If you need somone to go to bat for you, PM me - but I am pretty sure that there are plenty of Royals lining up to do exactly that.

 

[RHFC_piper]

I kinda had a feeling there had to be some process for reassessment for this, but I wanted to make sure and get some input from those who have 'been there, done that'.

Since I've started physio, I've been improving constantly.  Between working out at the gym with a sports therapy trainer and getting ultrasound therapy to break up scar tissue, thing have been getting better and better.  I have better flexibility, thanks to PNF stretching, than I had before I deployed, and the gym is really making a big difference in strength and endurance... I'm up to jogging, but I doubt I'd pass a beep test.  I'm sure I could do a 13K, but I think the fireman carry would wreak havoc on my back... but with this said, I'm sure I could get back up to the minimum requirements, and more, given time.
The issue I had was if the PCAT was, as in the name, permanent, then all this work would be for not, especially if I'm unable to do what I joined the army to do (even if it is just part time).  I don't mind being the unit recruiter (I have a fairly big office), I would just rather be with the rifle coy.

Unfortunately, most of my info comes from people who have been on PCAT and are now out because of it, so I was getting some pretty bleak perspectives.  It just seemed whenever I mentioned PCAT to anyone, they made it seem like I was pretty much done in the forces.
I'm glad to hear that this may not be the case.

This is why I posted this here.... I just wanted to get some insight from members who may be on a PCAT and still serving. Thanks for the heads up, Bern.

Piper,

If you need somone to go to bat for you, PM me - but I am pretty sure that there are plenty of Royals lining up to do exactly that.

Thanks for the offer.  I actually have some very good NCO's and Officers looking after me at all levels (Unit, CBG and LFCA).  I'm confident that I will be well represented no matter what.  But I do appreciate the offer. 



This is what I love about the military family... and why I would never want to leave it... we always seem to be there for each other.  What other job would offer that kind of camaraderie?? 

 

[tree hugger]

I think the biggest thing you need to look at are the MEL's you're on and how they relate to universality of service.  I once asked to challenge the UofS/BFOR and it doesn't happen.  You've got to fight for more rehab time (TCAT) before they give you a PCAT. 

 

[Gunner98]

Piper,

Another ref which may already have been shown to you is below.  This policy replaced CANFORGEN 116/04. The key to this policy is the role of the Home Unit:

CANFORGEN 174/07 CMP 076/07 271856Z NOV 07
EXTENSION OF CLASS C RESERVE SERVICE FOR PERSONNEL WHOSE INJURY OR ILLNESS WAS SUSTAINED ON SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE
UNCLASSIFIED

REFS: A. QR O ARTICLE 9.08
B. CFAO 24-1
C. DAOD 5018-2
D. CANFORGEN 137/07 CMP 059/07 221816Z AUG 07
E. CANFORGEN 116/04 ADMHRMIL 062 241749Z AUG 04

AS GROWING NUMBERS OF RESERVISTS ARE INTEGRATED INTO ALL ASPECTS OF CF OPERATIONS, THE NEED FOR A NEW POLICY APPROACH DESIGNED TO BETTER MANAGE CARE, ADMINISTRATION, AND THE SUCCESSFUL REINTEGRATION INTO THE WORKFORCE OF THOSE INJURED WHILE ON SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE IS CLEAR. IAW REF D SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE CONSISTS OF:

SERVICE IN A SPECIAL DUTY AREA (SDA) OR AS PART OF A SPECIAL DUTY OPERATION (SDO)

TRAINING FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF SERVICE IN A SDA OR AS PART OF A SDO

TRAVEL TO AND FROM A SDA OR SDO OR THE LOCATION OF THE TRAINING AND D. AUTHORIZED LEAVE DURING SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE

UNDER AUTHORITY OF REF A, FOR THE PURPOSE OF EFFECTIVE REINTEGRATION INTO THE WORKFORCE, ALL RES FORCE PERSONNEL WHO SUSTAIN AN INJURY OR ILLNESS WHILE SERVING ON CLASS C SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE WILL BE ELIGIBLE FOR EXTENSION OF CLASS C SERVICE UP TO A MAXIMUM OF 24 MONTHS OR UNTIL SUCH TIME AS THE INDIVIDUAL IS EITHER TRANSFERRED TO THE CARE OF VETERANS AFFAIRS CANADA OR UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A MEDICAL OFFICER DECLARES, AND THE CHAIN OF COMMAND AGREES THAT THE INDIVIDUAL IS:

MEDICALLY FIT AND ABLE TO RETURN TO DUTY OR

ABLE TO RETURN TO AN EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION OR

ABLE TO RETURN TO CIVILIAN EMPLOYMENT

AS SOON AS RES FORCE PERSONNEL BECOME DISABLED AS A RESULT OF AN INJURY OR ILLNESS WHILE SERVING ON CLASS C SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE, THE EMPLOYING CO SHALL NOTIFY DCSA AND THE INDIVIDUAL S HOME UNIT CO OF THE DISABLING INJURY/ILLNESS VIA EMAIL OR MESSAGE, IAW REF B, AND FORWARD A CF 98 WITHIN 14 DAYS AS PER REF C

IF THE INDIVIDUALS INCAPACITY IS PROJECTED BY A MO TO EXTEND BEYOND THE END OF THE CLASS C SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE, THE HOME UNIT CO IS TO ADVISE DCSA OF THE REQUIREMENT TO EXTEND THE PERIOD OF CLASS C SERVICE AND THE REQUIRED LENGTH OF THE EXTENSION. THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION WILL BE SENT TO DCSA:
THE INDIVIDUALS PARTICULARS, INCL SN, RANK, NAME AND INIT

THE OPERATION ON WHICH THE RESERVIST WAS SERVING AND CONFIRMATION THAT THE INDIVIDUAL WAS ON CLASS C SPECIAL DUTY SERVICE AT THE TIME OF INJURY/ILLNESS

THE INDIVIDUAL S HOME UNIT AND CLASS C EMPLOYMENT UNIT

CURRENT CLASS C TERMINATION DATE

CONFIRMATION BY MO OF DATES OF ANTICIPATED INCAPACITATION

DCSA WILL REVIEW THE SUBSTANTIATING DOCUMENTATION AND SUBMIT A RECOMMENDATION FOR CMP APPROVAL. ONCE THE EXTENSION OF CLASS C SERVICE IS APPROVED, DCSA WILL ISSUE A MESSAGE CONFIRMING AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXTENSION. FURTHER PERIODS OF CLASS C SERVICE MAY BE REQUESTED AND APPROVED AS REQUIRED FOR CONVALESCENCE TO A MAXIMUM OF 24 MONTHS FOR ALL EXTENSIONS

NO EXTENSION WILL BE GRANTED AND AN EXTENSION ALREADY IN PLACE WOULD CEASE SHOULD THE INDIVIDUAL UNREASONABLY REFUSE PRESCRIBED, MEDICAL TREATMENT. OBVIOUSLY, AN EXTENSION OF SERVICE ON CLASS C WOULD CEASE SHOULD THE INDIVIDUAL RELEASE FROM THE CF PRIOR TO THE END OF THAT EXTENSION

IT IS RECOGNIZED THAT THIS EMPLOYMENT POLICY APPLIES ONLY TO A SPECIFIC GROUP OF PERSONNEL WITHIN THE RESERVE FORCE. A BROADER CF POLICY ON CARE AND EMPLOYMENT OF INJURED CF PERSONNEL IS UNDER DEVELOPMENT AND WILL BE ISSUED IN DUE COURSE

 

[Gunner98]

Piper,

  A PCat with MEL does not always lead to Release, as stated by others you future employment is guided by the Medical Employment Limitations (MEL) and DMCARM makes the final decision. A change in PCat does not mean that you automatically no longer meet the Generic and Occupation Task Standards.

A few more refs:
CF H Svcs Gp Order 5020-7
http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/health/policies/word/engraph/5020-07_e.doc
Excerpt
Para 5. A change of medical category below the minimum standard required for a member's MOC will normally be supported by a current consultant's opinion. The consultant shall have been asked to describe the appropriate employment limitations upon which the base/wing surgeon shall determine the medical category. It is the referring MO's responsibility to raise the appropriate occupational questions for the consultant to answer, especially where the consultant is a civilian with little knowledge of the Canadian Forces. The consultant's report shall be submitted along with the CF 2033 or CF 2017 and the CF 2088.

CFP 154
Excerpt:
Chapter 3, para 9 Temporary Grading
As soon as the member's condition is stable or is not expected to significantly improve in the foreseeable future, a permanent category should be assigned, even before the end of the 12-month period of temporary category.

Assessing Medical Fitness http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/engraph/cfp154_chap2_e.asp
Min Med Standards - http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/engraph/cfp154_annexEappen1-2_e.pdf
Generic Task Statements - http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/GTS7_e.pdf
Infantry Task Statements http://www.forces.gc.ca/health/policies/med_standards/pdf/Engraph/cfp154_task031_e.pdf

 

[aecami]

How much weight does the MOs and BSurg's recommendation for MEL's carry?  I was told recommendations were made that would give me G3O3, but that D Med Pol makes the final decision on the category.  Does D Med Pol often reduce categories beyond what has been recommended?

 

[BernDawg]

Disclaimer - "In my experience"  Generally no. DMedPol does not change the MELs as described by the MO and BSurg.  But I am only familiar with a few cases my own included.

 

[aecami]

Disclaimer Noted...but still good information to know.  Do you if an AR (MEL) is done for every PCat or only ones that place the member below the minimum standards for their trade?

Thank you.

 

[dapaterson]

If a after assignment of a PCAT you're still within the standards for your trade there's no issue - you meet the standards.  It's only once you are below the needed standards that any review action is necessary.

 

[aecami]

Thank you for the information..it helps clear up some confusion.

Much appreciated.

 

[RHFC_piper]

Well... I've reached the last, and most treacherous, hurtle in the TCAT/PCAT/MEL track... The AR/MEL.

Without going into detail; I have been assign MELs which essentially don't meet universality of service, and have be recommended for medical release.  As it stands; my assisting officer and I are fighting this, specifically because I can perform most, if not all, of the duties in the limitations.  To do this, I have to produce a "written representation" to state my point/case for staying in the forces... which shouldn't be a huge problem... my only issue is that some of the limitations require some definition. Thus the reason for posting here.
And, I figured, if anyone is interested; here are the categories; (A-MD-154-000/FP-000, APPENDIX 1, ANNEX D)

1. Must be able to perform high-crawl over a distance of 45 m and low-crawl over a distance of 30 m.

2. Must be able to dig a personal trench

3. Must be able to carry sandbags weighing 20 Kg over a distance of 50 m for a period of 10 min.

4. Must be able to evacuate a casualty 750 m across country by carrying one end of a stretcher bearing an 80 Kg load.

5. Must be able to evacuate a casualty, during a fire on board ship, by carrying one end of a Stoke’s litter bearing an 80 Kg load up and down a flight of stairs.

6. Must be able to undertake the CF EXPRESS program

7. Must be able to perform drill for at least 30 minutes.

8. Must be able to safely handle and effectively operate a personal weapon.

9. Must be able to safely perform duties in or close to water.

10. Must be able to communicate via radio.

Stress factors

1. Must be able to perform duties in a military environment, including but not limited to:
        a. Frequent movement, relocation, isolation, and temporary duty away from home or unit.
        b. Working over extended periods of time in hostile environments, exposed to life threatening situations

2. Must be able to perform duties under extreme climatic conditions.

3. Must be able to perform duties while wearing NBC equipment.

4. Must be able to perform duties in unpredictable working conditions, which may involve such stresses as:
        a. No advance notice
        b. Limited rations
        c. Missing meals
        d. Irregular or prolonged hours
        e. Lack of sleep

5. Must be able to perform duties with minimal medical support, which may include;
        a. Limited frequency of care
        b. Limited access to health care personnel: Med A, PA, nurse, nurse practitioner, physiotherapist, chiropractor, physician, and specialist, ect.
        c. Limited proximity to medical services (clinics, hospitals, laboratories), in terms of distance and travelling time
        d. Unavailability of medications or inability to take them on time
        e. Inability to perform medical procedures (injections, use of CPAP, etc)
        f. Exacerbating effects of a particular climate, physical environment or mental environment on the member’s medical condition

6. Must be able to travel as a passenger via any mode of transportation.

The following requires clarification:

Under Physical Factors;

# 1. What is a "high-crawl" and what is a "low-crawl"?  I'm guessing a high-crawl is what used to be called the "monkey run" or perhaps crawling on all fours? and the low-crawl is the "leopard crawl"... can anyone shed some light on this?

# 5. I realize this isn't an issue for land forces, but if I'm going to prove I can do one, I want to be able to do all; what is a "Stoke's litter"?

Besides those, everything else is fairly self explanatory... any insight on those two would be greatly appreciated.

 

[PMedMoe]

This is a Stokes Litter:

Basically, any "basket" type litter used to evacuate casualties where a stretcher isn't able to be used.

 

[RHFC_piper]

Thanks, PMedMoe...  Now I have to find one, load it up, and carry it up some stairs... I even know of some stairs that are as narrow and steep as those found on a ship, right in the Cambridge Armoury (from the parade square to the balcony).
Not that I'd ever have to do this in real life, but I want to be able to say I can if I had to.

 

[blacktriangle]

Well... I've reached the last, and most treacherous, hurtle in the TCAT/PCAT/MEL track... The AR/MEL.

Without going into detail; I have been assign MELs which essentially don't meet universality of service, and have be recommended for medical release.  As it stands; my assisting officer and I are fighting this, specifically because I can perform most, if not all, of the duties in the limitations.  To do this, I have to produce a "written representation" to state my point/case for staying in the forces... which shouldn't be a huge problem... my only issue is that some of the limitations require some definition. Thus the reason for posting here.
And, I figured, if anyone is interested; here are the categories; (A-MD-154-000/FP-000, APPENDIX 1, ANNEX D)


The following requires clarification:

Under Physical Factors;

# 1. What is a "high-crawl" and what is a "low-crawl"?  I'm guessing a high-crawl is what used to be called the "monkey run" or perhaps crawling on all fours? and the low-crawl is the "leopard crawl"... can anyone shed some light on this?

# 5. I realize this isn't an issue for land forces, but if I'm going to prove I can do one, I want to be able to do all; what is a "Stoke's litter"?

Besides those, everything else is fairly self explanatory... any insight on those two would be greatly appreciated.

Well I sure hope you don't get released on account of any of those...as I'm sure we all know a few people in the forces that cannot safely or effectively operate a personal weapon or communicate via radio...and yet they still have jobs!

Seriously though, best of luck. 

 

[armyvern]

Well... I've reached the last, and most treacherous, hurtle in the TCAT/PCAT/MEL track... The AR/MEL.

Without going into detail; I have been assign MELs which essentially don't meet universality of service, and have be recommended for medical release.  As it stands; my assisting officer and I are fighting this, specifically because I can perform most, if not all, of the duties in the limitations.  To do this, I have to produce a "written representation" to state my point/case for staying in the forces... which shouldn't be a huge problem... my only issue is that some of the limitations require some definition. Thus the reason for posting here.
And, I figured, if anyone is interested; here are the categories; (A-MD-154-000/FP-000, APPENDIX 1, ANNEX D)

RHFC_Piper,

I've also acted as the AO for a member who was on their 2nd "accomodation" (ie unfit further service due to being below specs). They could also complete most of the tasks. We successfully filed an overturning of the accomodation in that member's case and mbrs career then continued onwards (with a back-dated promotion as soon as the accomodation and PCat were lifted. It took us a long time, but there is always room for improvement in one's condition ... keep yourself working hard at that and keep a posotive attitude.

If you have any questions/concerns that I may be able to assist you with - fire me off a PM.

Sorry, I'm only just seeing this thread for the 1st time I believe.