• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

Sinking the navy

Stoker

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
1,027
Points
1,160
Sinking the navy

Wed Feb 7, 2007 7:02 pm (PST)
Flawed defence plan ignores critical needs

Sun Feb 4 2007
Peter Haydon

DEFENCE Minister Gordon O'Connor's new defence plan leaves too many
unanswered questions. It wasn't surprising that it quickly drew fire
from the naval community, which seems to have the most to lose. The
plan does indeed indicate a significant loss of capability for the
navy at some point in the future.
The so-called Canada First defence strategy recommends that the navy
get rid of its two fleet support ships, used for refuelling and
supplying combat vessels at sea. The plan would leave the navy unable
to refuel vessels at sea for at least two years until replacements
are built. The problem, of course, is that tenders have not been
issued for replacements and, given past practice, it will be tempting
for Ottawa to continue to delay issuing a contract as a cost-saving
measure.

The air force is also affected under the plan, which calls for the
elimination of six Aurora maritime patrol aircraft. The cuts are
proposed as a way of funding other needed equipment.

Giving up the fleet support ships before their replacements arrive
probably spells the demise of the naval task group concept that has
served this country so well for the last 15 years. On their own, the
frigates don't have great endurance, perhaps some 11,000 kilometres,
and this limits their operating range as well as making them
dependent on refuelling stops in port or from one of the support
vessels if they are to be at sea for more than about 10 days. For the
navy to retain its traditional flexibility and mobility, it will have
to buy or lease a commercial tanker and fit it out for the fleet
support role. This is not difficult. The Australians have just done
that with HMAS Sirius, and the British have considerable experience
as a result of the Falklands War.

O'Connor also wants to phase out one of the three Iroquois-class
destroyers, which serve as command ships. The remaining two
destroyers are more than 40 years old and are near the end of their
service. The loss of the command ships needs to be put in
perspective. If there is no task group to command, because there are
no support ships, then the command ship is redundant.

The question we should be asking is whether 12 frigates is enough to
do the work that the navy has been called upon to do over the last 15
or so years. For instance, will there be enough ships to maintain a
frigate in NATO's standing naval force (as Canada has traditionally
done for most of the last 40 years), and keep another frigate
operating with U.S. and other Allied naval forces in the Middle East,
as well as keep one frigate on patrol in both the Pacific and the
Atlantic and also meet maintenance and overhaul requirements? That
will be a stretch and there won't be anything left over if a new
crisis arises or if someone suddenly decides that the task group
should be re-formed and deployed.
Getting rid of six Aurora maritime patrol aircraft makes absolutely
no sense. There is a need to gather information on what is going on
in all waters under our jurisdiction and an aircraft is an excellent
way of doing it. Trying to claim that it can all be done by unmanned
aircraft (UAVs) without first knowing if one can replace the other is
questionable. UAVs are very capable but are they very reliable when
flying over the major fishing grounds in storm? Can they drop rescue
equipment to sailors in distress? Maybe we should know some of those
answers before agreeing to the new defence plan.

Paying off a few ships and aircraft isn't going to save any real
money; it is naive to believe that. People are the major line item in
the budget and paying off a few ships isn't going to provide instant
savings in people who can be sent to Afghanistan. Anyway, what
happens to O'Connor's new army once the Afghan campaign is over? Will
it ever be used again? Is there any guarantee that Afghanistan is the
model for all future intervention operations? In all probability the
army will have to be reconfigured again, and in the meantime the
government will have thrown away air force and navy capabilities of
lasting and proven value. That seems to be short-sighted planning.

What O'Connor's new defence plan does achieve is a reduction in the
basic capabilities of the navy and air force but without having done
some solid research to determine just what capabilities are needed
for national security. Without being shown the analysis to support
the new plan, it might seem that "Canada First" is merely
becoming "Afghanistan First." In any event, long-term, national
security requirements should be driving our force structure and not
anything else.

Peter Haydon is a Senior Research Fellow with Dalhousie's Centre for
Foreign Policy Studies and

the Editor-in-Chief of the Canadian Naval Review.

The Winnipeg Free Press
 
I hope this proposal is in fact a trial balloon to test the viability of the idea ather than a set plan to go forward.

The CF needs to grow, and not just the Army. It may be that it is politically impossible to fund urgent military requiremnts in the next few years and fight in Afghanistan. This begs the question, what then can the government do for the Military in this environment? The only hope is the Tories win a majority and that they can be more ambitious, but we all know that the military is low on the priority list for politicians, especially if it is a choice between ships for the Navy and funding for day care.  Pehaps we are to become New Zealand North? No real navy or Air Force. Sad.
 
As a non CF member this is probably one of those topics I should stay out of, but I cannot and will not remain silent.  Scrapping the Navy's auxilliary ships before replacements are available goes against all common sense.  Scrapping six Aurora aircraft is just as stupid, with the current terrorist threat one needs to be able to monitor ones land, air and maritime frontiers as much as possible.  I understand the Army which is heavily involved in fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan desperately needs more funding for vital equipment, recruitment etc.  However, short changing the Navy and Air Force is a very short sighted policy which will leave Canada weaker not stronger. 
 
I always thought if the military/government starts making sense it would be time to quit!

I don't know what the plans are, all the information I am getting is from the media outlets.  If it happens, it happens there isn't anything I can do about it. 

Scrapping anything without a replacement is always a bad idea, in my mind if we can make things work without supply ships, then why would be build more......... I only see this as a cut back..........

 
Hopefully someone will throat punch O'Connor to wake him up but I have my doubts. The man has  no clue what a naval task group can do for Canada if employed properly.

Not to mention the loss of a third of our survelliance air craft....come on! 6 CP140s!! Whatever crack they are smoking in Ottawa, they are definitely getting ripped off.... >:(
 
It's definitely not good news if they do this. I hope it is just a trial balloon.
 
See The Ruxted Group’s columns: A New Year's Resolution, A budget boost now, please, Prime Minister Harper, and Time is running out and Sen. Kenny’s and my comments in the Time is running out thread here on Army.ca.

One must hope that the published (Ottawa Citizen) reports, which, as that newspaper made clear, are based on a leaked version (still a Draft?) of the “Canada First” paper, are indeed intended to be trial balloons which will cause Canadians to wake up to the fact that successive governments, especially since 1968, have steadily eroded the capabilities of the Canadian Forces and have, thereby, deprived themselves of the flexibility required to respond to threats to Canada’s vital interests at home and abroad.

I have no doubt that the ”doubling the defence budget“ lead item was designed, precisely to create controversy - mostly from those factions who believe, sincerely, that Canada should disarm and become a northern Costa Rica or a big, rich Iceland.

Unless a substantial number of Canadians tell the PM, their MPs and the media that the ”doubling the defence budget” over 18 years is waaaaaay too little and way too late, and means that we, Canadians, will disarm Canada by stealth and sacrifice our sovereignty on the alter of ‘free’ healthcare, then it is likely that the reported ‘doubling’ will become fact and we will lose our ability to assert our own sovereignty over our own territory and our ability to promote and protect our values around the world.  We will, in other words, go from Colony to Nation (as historian Arthur Lower so aptly put iy years ago) back to colony again.

See, also, my latest comment in the Deep-water Arctic Port in 2007 . . . or never? thread.
 
Sadly though we have put our requirements on the back burner for so long these ships will be lucky to make the 4 years they are calling for (let alone 6 to 8 more years).  We are in very rough shape now 40 years is pushing twice the expected life.  We can't expect much more out of our older hulls.  Between manning and equipment issues the Navy is in real trouble.
 
Ex-Dragoon said:
The man has  no clue what a naval task group can do for Canada if employed properly.


What can a Naval Task Group do for us is employed properly ?

Just a straight up question no need to implode this time!
 
Wow that was a serious question too.

I am in the dark on this one so educate me. What can a Naval task group do for our country at this time ? Or in the future.

My snarkey remark is because last time I asked this question people acted as if I was Paul Hellyer reborn coming to steal the navy away again. So if my remark offended thee i apologize perhaps I was a bit childish.

On a more serious note, these are questions the Navy needs to be asking its self. We have to find a niche to become relevant in this modern setting of the world. Personally I like the idea of being the Army's water taxi.
 
I'll pick this up.
A task group gives us incredible flexibility to respond to crisis that need an immediate response that only the Navy can provide. The only problem is that we have never deployed the Task Group as it has been originally conceived (2 Frigates, 1 280, an AOR, SSK, organic Helo, and a MPA). Certainly we have sent partial Task Groups (Gulf War 1 and OP APOLLO) but most of the time we have sent ships one at a time, mainly due to lack of platforms.
We have also been solely focused on North Atlantic ASW since WWII. We have 2 or 3 generations of Naval Officers who have lived and breathed this capability for years and are loathed to change. Meanwhile the rest of the world are switching their focus from ASW, AAW, ASUW (but not chopping it off, just less focus) to the littoral. Canada is making halting steps towards the littoral but at times it has been very painful to watch.
Meanwhile the USN have created the Expeditionary Strike Group which consists of a LHA/LHD (Tarawa or Wasp Class Amphibious Assault Carrier), an LPD (Austin Class) and the new San Antonio (LHA)  and a CV (Ticonderoga) and DDG (Arleigh Burke). This group will carry a Marine Expeditionary Unit. It was one of these carried out the operation to assist the Northern Alliance to oust the Taliban.

Not saying that Canada could launch something like this but here is what I would like to see:
Some type of Assault Carrier (the Aussies are looking to purchase one or two from Spain)
a JSS
1 frigate
1 280
(these two ships will be replace (hopefully) by the SCSC

This would give Canada a credible sea based force that could be a player in the littoral.
There was a quote I think from Lord Jellico (First Sea Lord) that the British Army was the point of a shell fired from the deck of a Royal Navy ship. This is one of the ways that the Canadian Navy regain her so-called relevance to the defence of Canada. (a relevance that I don't think we have lost)
 
I'll wade in here and pose a question...

The report mentioned a replacement frigate for the City class?  What's wrong with our 1980-90 era ships - we're still flying 1960-70 aircraft, can't the Navy keep their equipment for that long too?
 
Zoomie said:
I'll wade in here and pose a question...

The report mentioned a replacement frigate for the City class?  What's wrong with our 1980-90 era ships - we're still flying 1960-70 aircraft, can't the Navy keep their equipment for that long too?

But do you really want to? Operate 60's - 70's era aircraft I mean.
PRO/PRE were built in the 70's with 1950's technology they are wayyyy past their best before date. The 280's have had their update but they are pushing 40 years old.
Now we could argue til the cows come home which service operates in the harshest environment but which would you rather have; operating something that is 30+ years old or something 10-15 years old. And I know that the B-52 and the Iowa class Battleship are well over 50 and 60 years old respectively.
 
Saint John New Brunswick. The shipyard there is now a pulp and paper mill and I think the dry dock is filled in. Very sad really because alot of the federal treasury was used to bring that ship yard up to standard. Also SJ Shipbuilding had concept plans for a 280 replacement but it all fell through because of government indifference.

We had it right in the 50's and early 60'. There was a continuous building program that kept on improving on previous classes which culminated with the 280 class destroyer. Once they were completed they should have started work on a frigate replacement, followed by subs, then patrol craft, then AOR's and then repeat the cycle. This way all the infrastructure (shipyards, workers, experience) is maintained and improved over time, there were numerous instances in regards to the frigate project that the lack of knowledge led to huge mistakes and cost overruns.
 
It takes so long to get a new ship the way we do business now. When I joined the Navy in 77 I remember getting a brief on the Frigate program. The first one finally rolled out in the early 90s. The Falkland War caused some major redesign problems but still they took a long time from blueprint to commissioning.
As FTSO said that is why we need a program that is continuous rather than ramping up to build ships every 20 years or so...very wasteful and costs way more in the long run.
 
FSTO said:
I'll pick this up.
A task group gives us incredible flexibility to respond to crisis that need an immediate response that only the Navy can provide. The only problem is that we have never deployed the Task Group as it has been originally conceived (2 Frigates, 1 280, an AOR, SSK, organic Helo, and a MPA). Certainly we have sent partial Task Groups (Gulf War 1 and OP APOLLO) but most of the time we have sent ships one at a time, mainly due to lack of platforms.
We have also been solely focused on North Atlantic ASW since WWII. We have 2 or 3 generations of Naval Officers who have lived and breathed this capability for years and are loathed to change. Meanwhile the rest of the world are switching their focus from ASW, AAW, ASUW (but not chopping it off, just less focus) to the littoral. Canada is making halting steps towards the littoral but at times it has been very painful to watch.
Meanwhile the USN have created the Expeditionary Strike Group which consists of a LHA/LHD (Tarawa or Wasp Class Amphibious Assault Carrier), an LPD (Austin Class) and the new San Antonio (LHA)  and a CV (Ticonderoga) and DDG (Arleigh Burke). This group will carry a Marine Expeditionary Unit. It was one of these carried out the operation to assist the Northern Alliance to oust the Taliban.

Not saying that Canada could launch something like this but here is what I would like to see:
Some type of Assault Carrier (the Aussies are looking to purchase one or two from Spain)
a JSS
1 frigate
1 280
(these two ships will be replace (hopefully) by the SCSC

This would give Canada a credible sea based force that could be a player in the littoral.
There was a quote I think from Lord Jellico (First Sea Lord) that the British Army was the point of a shell fired from the deck of a Royal Navy ship. This is one of the ways that the Canadian Navy regain her so-called relevance to the defence of Canada. (a relevance that I don't think we have lost)

Like the other member named "apostle", although I am a civvy, I feel a duty to say my piece on the subject as well.

As much as I respect our Navy/Marcom and their mission, compared to the US Navy, I just don't think our having a single assault carrier and her amphibious task group would have as much an impact as having a larger Army that could be easily airlifted.

The ARGs/MEUs of the US Navy and Marine Corps only have such an impact because of their numbers. As all of you well know, they are based around the 5 Tarawa class and the 7 Wasp class assault carriers. Having this many assault carriers and their accompanying LPDs/LSDs means having at least or 3 or 4 ARGs/MEU at sea all over the world and thus there is an ARG/MEU said to be within striking distance of any contingency/hotspot.

That means at least one of the other task groups can be at port for refuelling/repairs or training.

Now picture our having a task group...

What if a contingency like having all those Canadian citizens in Lebanon flares up again....what would happen if our single assault carrier like the one FSTO suggested is laid up in port for repairs or resupplying or training at the time of contingency? Would they be able to resupply and get underway right away and then make it to the contingency area/area of operation in time to make a difference instead of us having to rely on one of our allies for help?

I'm aware that many other militaries, including the Royal Navy with their single amphibious task group based around HMS Ocean also have smaller amphibious capabilities compared to that of our American neighbors. Now I ask you, is it really cost effective to spend more money on building the ships and recruitng the crews for these task groups when having rapidly deployable, air-liftable Army troops/airborne units can do the job? 

I'm not saying that one should always emulate the  joint US Air Force and US Army capability when it comes to deploying a ready brigade of an airborne division anywhere in the world within a a matter of two days...but from the way I see it, more transport planes, airborne tankers and more paratrooper units would be less costly for a nation like us than having more costly amphibious ships, their escorts and the accompanying supply train, which is a luxury of a much larger power.

Of course, I'm not saying we should not develop our amphibious capability with the advent of the JSS, but can we afford to jeopardize our foreign interests to maintain a minimal capability when having a more deployable, airborne capability might be more cost-effective?

BTW, please don't get me wrong in spite of what I typed above- I'm another Marcom wannabe and prefer that we have a larger fleet provided we have the budget and govt. support to build it. I'm just thinking that if we're gonna eventually become more than a "middle power", we'd better do it gradually and in the most cost-effective way. I don't want Marcom to end up like the Thai Navy who laid up their new assault carrier Chakri Naruebet after a few years and they had problems with maintenance costs after the 1997 Asian Financial Crisis.

Still, while some of you would see this as intruding "on their lane", I just felt this other aspect needed to be addressed...

I appeal to the experts for their input. :salute:
 
CougarKing said:
Like the other member named "apostle", although I am a civvy, I feel a duty to say my piece on the subject as well.

As much as I respect our Navy/Marcom and their mission, compared to the US Navy, I just don't think our having a single assault carrier and her amphibious task group would have as much an impact as having a larger Army that could be easily airlifted.

The ARGs/MEUs of the US Navy and Marine Corps only have such an impact because of their numbers. As all of you well know, they are based around the 5 Tarawa class and the 7 Wasp class assault carriers. Having this many assault carriers and their accompanying LPDs/LSDs means having at least or 3 or 4 ARGs/MEU at sea all over the world and thus there is an ARG/MEU said to be within striking distance of any contingency/hotspot.

That means at least one of the other task groups can be at port for refuelling/repairs or training.

Now picture our having a task group...

What if a contingency like having all those Canadian citizens in Lebanon flares up again....what would happen if our single assault carrier like the one FSTO suggested is laid up in port for repairs or resupplying or training at the time of contingency? Would they be able to resupply and get underway right away and then make it to the contingency area/area of operation in time to make a difference instead of us having to rely on one of our allies for help?

I'm aware that many other militaries, including the Royal Navy with their single amphibious task group based around HMS Ocean also have smaller amphibious capabilities compared to that of our American neighbors. Now I ask you, is it really cost effective to spend more money on building the ships and recruiting the crews for these task groups when having rapidly deployable, air-liftable Army troops/airborne units can do the job? 

I'm not saying that one should always emulate the joint US Air Force and US Army capability when it comes to deploying a ready brigade of an airborne division anywhere in the world within a a matter of two days...but from the way I see it, more transport planes, airborne tankers and more paratrooper units would be less costly for a nation like us than having more costly amphibious ships, their escorts and the accompanying supply train, which is a luxury of a much larger power.

Of course, I'm not saying we should not develop our amphibious capability with the advent of the JSS, but can we afford to jeopardize our foreign interests to maintain a minimal capability when having a more deployable, airborne capability might be more cost-effective?

Still, while some of you would see this as intruding "on their lane", I just felt this other aspect needed to be addressed...

I appeal to the experts for their input. :salute:

I should have put some numbers up
2 LHD
4 JSS
12 Frigates
4 C3 Destroyers

One LHD/2 JSS on each coast would give us a limited amount of flexibility required to have a group available while the other group is alongside. Now we would not be able to respond to every contingency but then again we wouldn't be standing around with out thumb up our butts listening to Josephine Chattering Class go on about why we are not responding to the latest urgent crisis.

As for the argument of shutting down the navy and using the money for extra troops, and planes is that those things need airspace clearance and staging areas near the AOO to get the things done. The Amphib Ready group gets around all that because of the freedom of the seas. Also those ships can be sent off to do other things when not busy with the latest Lebanon crisis. One last thing, out here on the left coast we have this little looming problem called the Juan de Fuca Plate which is set to do a major shift sometime soon. Now if this happens and Vancouver is hit, be advised that YVR is built on a sediment bed and would turn to soup if hit. Now think of the LHD and two JSS's at anchor in English Bay disgorging the troops and equipment, bringing back severely wounded to the hospitals inside these ships. The operations room humming with the command and control pers and civilian agencies conducting rescue, recovery and reconstruction efforts etc. This is what the Navy can bring to the table any time anywhere.
 
Back
Top