Sergeant Major Marching Up & Down the Parade Square - Return to Spit & Polish

[OldSolduer]

Just like teaching people anything else. You explain what to do, you explain why it is done and then show them how to do it. If people understand why they do certain things, they will do it. Teaching section attacks is no different than teaching attack runs on the CP-140.

I've never been in the Aurora, however I do know that once the soldier is past the intense drill phase of training, he/she is now ready to be instructed on how to perform section attacks. And yes....we explain, demo and they imitate.
We cannot take a raw recruit and teach them section attacks....and I have seen AESOPs do drill as well...

And if you practise enough you know that the Advance Left turn is coming up, and not to react until told to, right?

 

[aesop081]

I'm going to go ask a bottle of Crown Royal what it thinks.............. :nod:

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm going to go ask a bottle of Crown Royal what it thinks.............. :nod:

And if I were there......I'd ask my buddy Jack Daniels....lol have a good one!!

 

[mariomike]

I suppose I could draw on an anecdote from my grandfather, who was one of the last guys off the beach at Dunkirk...despite being bombed and strafed, troops were formed up, called to attention, turned and marched out into the water towards whatever vessel was designated to lift them out.  It kept a semblance of order and calm by relegating everything back to parade ground familiarity and making a very abnormal situation seem a little more normal.  Not saying it was a Trooping at Buckingham Palace or even unchaotic, but it helped get things done.

:2c:

MM

I bet he never forgot that.
"Many stood shoulder deep in water for hours, waiting to board the vessels.":
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d2/DUNKIRK1940.jpg

 

[medicineman]

mario - he actually had to swim almost 1 km to the destroyer

Pat - I'm hoping the bottle doesn't talk back  :nod:.

MM

 

[blacktriangle]

Drill isn't the easiest thing on the body either...I'm sure my ankles, knees and back would be better without driving my foot down sharply. That, and standing in the new parade boots sucks. I got off one of these lovely parades and it was noticeably painful for me to operate the clutch in my car, as I was that stiff. They honestly need to do a warm up and cool down before these things! Laugh all you want, I know VAC will if I put in a claim when I'm old and tired.

As for the notion that you can't train tactics until a person knows drill...give any decent INF Sgt a 2IC, a soccer field, and some new guys...it will happen.

I know why we have drill and what its purpose is, but let's not act like it's the main driving force behind a successful CF.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

What an unusual thread to pop up when I've been away for a bit!

I heartily concur with CDN_aviator's comments. I don't expect mindless obedience from my soldiers. This is not the Wehrmacht. My dudes will do their jobs because A) they know why they must do something and B) they already know the next step in the process, not because I am standing there shouting like a prat. I have personal experience in a situation where if a soldier had immediately carried out the orders given to him by his superior he would have killed himself, for no gain. Is that what drill is supposed to teach us? Should he have carried out the order regardless, just because someone of a superior rank told him so???

As for CofC parades, I was recently on one where about 18 soldiers passed out due to heat. Just so a bunch of brass could pat each other on the back. Seriously??? Is this 2011? or 1913???

Like CDN_aviator says, what the heck is wrong with gathering everyone in the gym, shaking hands/signing papers then a BBQ and early finish?

Every day I am reminded of the famous quote regarding the experience of junior officers returning to the UK after VE day and being greeted by the garrison army with ' Thank god the war is over, now we can get back to real soldiering'. Thank god my contract ends when it does.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I know why we have drill and what it's purpose is, but let's not act like it's the main driving force behind a successful CF.

It's not, and neither does the Air Force have to fly jets in formation or the Navy sail around with commissioning pennants either, but they are all part of things we do that define us as the Army, Air Force and Navy, to ourselves and to the Canadian public.  The challenge in a modern CF is figuring out how much is just enough and stopping there - overdoing it doesn't make us better.

 

[blacktriangle]

It's not, and neither does the Air Force have to fly jets in formation or the Navy sail around with commissioning pennants either, but they are all part of things we do that define us as the Army, Air Force and Navy, to ourselves and to the Canadian public.  The challenge in a modern CF is figuring out how much is just enough and stopping there - overdoing it doesn't make us better.

I think there might be some tactical reasons for the AF to fly in formation ...not so much for a soldier to advance in review order. I know what you are saying though.

It's good to see that lots of Sgt/WO/Capts want to minimize the nonsense. I was starting to think it was only the junior ranks that felt that way.

 

[Towards_the_gap]

Unfortunately alot of those Sgt's/WO's/Capt's feel that they can only butt their heads against the wall for so long in the struggle for common sense, then vote with their feet, leaving the automatons in charge.

 

[armyvern]

I much prefer troops that do what they are told because they understand what it is that is being done rather than blind obedience just because i barked out the right words.

That's why we teach them drill slowly and by squads during their basic ... so that they understand what it is that is being done and how/why ... oddly enough, even after we teach them that, there are those who still manage to fuck it up on parades etc when we "bark it out". When people consistantly manage to fuck up simple, fundamental-to-uniform-wearing basics like that, it's no damn wonder why we and people like me have them out practicing. That's not blind obedience - it's called immediate reaction - disciplined - and capably performing immediate actions (no matter HOW basic) has saved an ass or two out there in the nasty big old world of war.

My .02cents worth.

 

[armyvern]

Unfortunately alot of those Sgt's/WO's/Capt's feel that they can only butt their heads against the wall for so long in the struggle for common sense, then vote with their feet, leaving the automatons in charge.

On the other hand, there are many of us today who are of the new generation and who hold those ranks, who are thinking "what the fuck happened to professionalism and discipline?" War-fighting is fine, but you can't tell me that troops are incapable of being disciplined and professional concurrent with that fighting. I see it happening every day here --- and I see those who don't think it's necessary too - that they simply have more or better things to do. They make some of their fellow soldiers look like shit especially during certain parades.

 

[a_majoor]

And it is not as if things like drill or dress and deportment don't happen in the "real world" as well. Training people to operate complex machinery, write computer programs or other complex tasks is generally broken into steps just like teaching drill so the machinist can "understand his job".

Go to the bank for a loan, or attend a business conference and see what "dress and deportment" will do for you.

You will have to leave the unit lines eventually, so make the use of all the skills you were taught....

 

[Towards_the_gap]

@ ArmyVern: personally, I do not use drill and deportment as a yardstick for discipline and professionalism. Rather, how they carry out their jobs ensuring that they understand my intent in regards to the task. I agree there is a bare minimum of deportment, but I do not get wrapped around the axle about it I always assume they are adults and treat them like such until they prove me otherwise, and as it stands have not been proven wrong yet.

@ Thucydides: totally agree, and you can imagine in my line of work that knowing complex tasks by rote is a common job skill. However, advancing in review order or presenting arms means little on a bridge site, or when on your hands and knees and staring at a freshly uncovered pressure plate hooked up to god knows what.


I think, at the end of the day, what CDN_Aviator and I are arguing is more about degrees of importance rather than doing away with drill and ceremonial altogether. I rate drill and dress uniform parades at the bottom of what is important in my job, but realise it still has to be done (NB FROM TIME TO TIME, not weekly or even monthly). I will never use it however to 'fill time' or 'build discipline'. My soldiers have plenty of self-discipline because that is what I expect of them, I give them plenty of slack to display such discipline, and I do not treat them like idiots by using outdated training methods to instill said discipline.

 

[vonGarvin]

OK, I'm probably going to regret this, and I'm probably going to say stuff that's been said in here, but here goes anyway

(first of all, yes, I read through this thread)

My one and only point is this: we are in the military and being in the military involves doing drill (among many other things).  Yes, there are times when parades are too time consuming.  But for any of you who think that drill is a waste of time at any time, I suggest that you get out of the military.


That is all I have to say about that...

 

[GAP]

Yes....drill is a pain......................but a potential lifesaving pain........

It's not the drill, per se, but the training of the individual and group to act in accordance to a barked command.....it's the mindset to react upon command, not stand there wondering what the DI wanted and whether you should do it.........sound familiar.......ever come under fire?..... ever react to a barked command?
It's the training of neural responses to stimuli......

 

[Dissident]

And really, am I the only one who gets goose bumps when participating in something like this?:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=121142&d=1273007770

(I am a proud Army Reservist, I just happened to be teaching at NOTC Venture last summer when they had the centennial parade.)

 

[Snaketnk]

GAP, I'm relatively new and I can't recall once being told to blindly follow drill commands. I've been told my entire career that even people calling drill make mistakes, and so to think about the parade format, and what you're "allowed" to do in drill (for example: grounding arms on the stand at ease, giving turns in the wrong direction, etc) And when someone screws up the drill programme, to go ahead with what's right. Problems occur when people's initiative and self confidence get stamped out and they'll follow the leader even if he's wrong.

On that note, maybe officers should practice drill more than the day before when the NCMs are out there for a week? Every major drill screw up I can think of are a direct result of an officer who wasn't present during practice really shitting the bed, and some of the NCMs following him while the rest did what was right.

 

[Edward Campbell]

...
On that note, maybe officers should practice drill more than the day before when the NCMs are out there for a week? Every major drill screw up I can think of are a direct result of an officer who wasn't present during practice really shitting the bed, and some of the NCMs following him while the rest did what was right.

You mean to say that they don't?

They used to, as late as circa 1980 - when I was last on regimental duty.

In the 1960s, '70s and inot ther '80s, regimental officers were drilled, separately, by the adjutant, assisted by the RSM or DSMI, in the relative privacy of the officers' mess parking lot, to ensure that they knew how to do their parts on parade without requiring too many rehearsals.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I think there might be some tactical reasons for the AF to fly in formation

So, why do only a few wear special clothing and fly special aircraft for public display and spend many days practicing special drills that other pilots don't use?