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Thanks guys .. it was probably thrown in the gash after the first paragraph was read!!
Scrapping the Subs - Media Pressure has Begun
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McG: i forgot to respond to this part:
The best way to take care of an enemy submarine stalking your surface assets is another submarine with quieter characterisitcs, more advanced sensors and faster, longer range torpedo's. We have that ... it's called the Victoria SSK. A surface ship cannot really hide from a determined sub, although with enough warning they can attack and kill one or, if they are lucky, simply steam away at high speed with their stern puckered. Helo's with their electronics payload are at the mercy of the sea state, thermal layers and generally do better with seasoned crews who can think like sub skippers. Our fliers are top notch examples of that, despite the equipment problems.
A D.E. sub with a good crew and decent equipment can sneak up on just about anything surfaced or submerged and sink it, photograph it, board it or whatever the mission dictates. We must not lose this capability, it is that simple!!!
Cheers ...
McG said:
The best way to take care of an enemy submarine stalking your surface assets is another submarine with quieter characterisitcs, more advanced sensors and faster, longer range torpedo's. We have that ... it's called the Victoria SSK. A surface ship cannot really hide from a determined sub, although with enough warning they can attack and kill one or, if they are lucky, simply steam away at high speed with their stern puckered. Helo's with their electronics payload are at the mercy of the sea state, thermal layers and generally do better with seasoned crews who can think like sub skippers. Our fliers are top notch examples of that, despite the equipment problems.
A D.E. sub with a good crew and decent equipment can sneak up on just about anything surfaced or submerged and sink it, photograph it, board it or whatever the mission dictates. We must not lose this capability, it is that simple!!!
Cheers ...
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Sounds like you have a letter to the editor right there Whiskey
Did anybody by chance see this clown Staples yesterday on global sunday? The panel was made up with this Staples character, a retired O-boat commander(Jay Plante), and two other analysts. The readers digest version is that he tried to make the same kinda points as Whiskey mentioned, and the retired submariner made him look like a tit >
Here's part of the transcript:
http://www.canada.com/national/globalsunday/story.html?id=3ed23c33-cbe3-4821-a4bc-5e6efc7734ba
Here's part of the transcript:
http://www.canada.com/national/globalsunday/story.html?id=3ed23c33-cbe3-4821-a4bc-5e6efc7734ba
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Where the hell do these guys come up with this stuff?
Since when do the Auroras and Sea Kings belong to the Navy? These guys call themselves experts? S***, my grandmother knows more about defense than most of these clowns. The worst part is the media plays these guys off as experts and the public believe it. It's embarrassing.
Since when do the Auroras and Sea Kings belong to the Navy? These guys call themselves experts? S***, my grandmother knows more about defense than most of these clowns. The worst part is the media plays these guys off as experts and the public believe it. It's embarrassing.
Anne McLellan MP from Calgary Alberta perhaps? but originally from Nova Scotia is (I can hardly
believe it) Deputy Prime Minister - a few minutes ago she was quoted on the CBC saying that
the Government is considering "laying up the fleet" - not a term one would hear in Calgary,
but certainly in DND HQ, or either Canadian Coast. I detest the CBC, but occasionally check
their sites on the Net. The CBC destroyed the Canadian Airborne Regiment. Its reports from
the Middle East are so distorted (they in fact, lie) that the public network is frequently subject
to criticism by "Honest Reporting" focused on the truth in reporting on Israel. The Canadian
submarine had an unfortunate and sad accident. Sometimes unavoidable in the real world.
But your previous observation that Canada focused on nuclear submarines in the 1980's
is correct, and I think the concept was supported by then PM Brian Mulroney and most of his
Cabinet, including the PC MP's from Halifax and Nova Scotia. The submarine service should
continue of course, it would be outrageous to write off the dedicated service of the crews
of these vessels, who represent this Country with zeal and courage. MacLeod
believe it) Deputy Prime Minister - a few minutes ago she was quoted on the CBC saying that
the Government is considering "laying up the fleet" - not a term one would hear in Calgary,
but certainly in DND HQ, or either Canadian Coast. I detest the CBC, but occasionally check
their sites on the Net. The CBC destroyed the Canadian Airborne Regiment. Its reports from
the Middle East are so distorted (they in fact, lie) that the public network is frequently subject
to criticism by "Honest Reporting" focused on the truth in reporting on Israel. The Canadian
submarine had an unfortunate and sad accident. Sometimes unavoidable in the real world.
But your previous observation that Canada focused on nuclear submarines in the 1980's
is correct, and I think the concept was supported by then PM Brian Mulroney and most of his
Cabinet, including the PC MP's from Halifax and Nova Scotia. The submarine service should
continue of course, it would be outrageous to write off the dedicated service of the crews
of these vessels, who represent this Country with zeal and courage. MacLeod
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I see that the Navy has ordered all subs to return to dock. Maybe that's what MacLellan was alluding to. A temporary tie up until the cause of the fire can be determined. A fairly sensible precaution and unfortunately a fairly routine occurence with our Cormorants, SeaKings, Griffons, Hornets, Hawks, Tucanos.......am I forgetting any?
Anyway I just hope they don't forget to untie them at a later date.
Anyway I just hope they don't forget to untie them at a later date.
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Kirkhill, I agree with your analysis, even if I don't know what a "Tucano" is. It might be a bit of a relief for the families of the crews to have them "feet dry" until the cause is determined. Check your PM's in a second.
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Thanks Inch. ;D
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Those interested in a good non-biased description of the Victoria class might want to check out the following link, good pics:
http://www.saoc-central.com/letter.html
Also saw it on the dann website. Counters that Idiot Staples pretty good, especially the 'World Wide Submarine Proliferation' - sure wouldn't hurt for our Surface ships or Auroras' to have some pratice against the type of threat they may encounter in Middle East or Asia.
I understand it was written in the late-90s before the official rename of the Upholder class.
http://www.saoc-central.com/letter.html
Also saw it on the dann website. Counters that Idiot Staples pretty good, especially the 'World Wide Submarine Proliferation' - sure wouldn't hurt for our Surface ships or Auroras' to have some pratice against the type of threat they may encounter in Middle East or Asia.
I understand it was written in the late-90s before the official rename of the Upholder class.
The Embraer "Tucano" is a turboprop high performance advanced military training aircraft which
was bought by the Thatcher Conservative government in Great Britain, and manufactured/assembled
in the United Kingdom. It was a very controversial purchase at the time. The Raytheon-Beech
"Texan Two" is based on the Swiss designed Pilatus PC-9, also turboprop powered and manufactured
by Raytheon-Beech in the United States. I know of at least one CF pilot from CFS Moose Jaw
(by way of VU-32 Squadron 12 Wing) who instructed in Saudi - there were probably others.MacLeod
was bought by the Thatcher Conservative government in Great Britain, and manufactured/assembled
in the United Kingdom. It was a very controversial purchase at the time. The Raytheon-Beech
"Texan Two" is based on the Swiss designed Pilatus PC-9, also turboprop powered and manufactured
by Raytheon-Beech in the United States. I know of at least one CF pilot from CFS Moose Jaw
(by way of VU-32 Squadron 12 Wing) who instructed in Saudi - there were probably others.MacLeod
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MacLeod, you're right, they are different. I've always heard the names used interchangeably. Kirkhill, IF'dUp too! :-[ I knew what you were talking about though.
There are quite a few guys in MJ that worked in Saudi, some are back with the CF and some instruct there as Bombardier employees.
Cheers
There are quite a few guys in MJ that worked in Saudi, some are back with the CF and some instruct there as Bombardier employees.
Cheers
Bert
Sr. Member
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I'm not a submariner or a naval electrician and have no information on the overall fitness of
the Upholder class subs, but there is a logical reason why there was a fire onboard.
Many journalists and otherwise have stated the subs are no good, unuseable, and judging
from the facts presented (two consecutive fires, electrical panel blows up in shower of
sparks, adverse confined space environment, and tragic loss of life), seem justified on the
surface of things. Subs are not as forgiving as a medium as a car on a Sunday afternoon
drive. Without understanding what really failed on the sub, making judgements based
on no facts seems to be what CBC does best.
Personally, I'd like to know the real reason behind the fires. Something pulled alot of
current with no apparent circuit breaker/fuse protection, created fires and flooded the
compartments with fumes quickly. Though its a definite technical problem, it may be
the problem has no bearing on design or functionality. Before I'd discuss scrapping
subs or the program, its better to find out what really went wrong and act on that data.
the Upholder class subs, but there is a logical reason why there was a fire onboard.
Many journalists and otherwise have stated the subs are no good, unuseable, and judging
from the facts presented (two consecutive fires, electrical panel blows up in shower of
sparks, adverse confined space environment, and tragic loss of life), seem justified on the
surface of things. Subs are not as forgiving as a medium as a car on a Sunday afternoon
drive. Without understanding what really failed on the sub, making judgements based
on no facts seems to be what CBC does best.
Personally, I'd like to know the real reason behind the fires. Something pulled alot of
current with no apparent circuit breaker/fuse protection, created fires and flooded the
compartments with fumes quickly. Though its a definite technical problem, it may be
the problem has no bearing on design or functionality. Before I'd discuss scrapping
subs or the program, its better to find out what really went wrong and act on that data.
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