Regimental Ties

[Matt_Fisher]

I was leafing through the pictures about the new Tilston Training Centre/Armoury for the Essex & Kent Scottish Regiment.

http://imageevent.com/gmockrcpilot/amouries?p=0&n=1&m=-1&c=3&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=2

I always thought that regimental ties were specifically for wear with civilian attire such as suits, sport coats, blazers etc.  I didn't think that they were authorised under CF dress regulations to be worn with the DEU?

Can anyone provide some official guidance here?

Regimental ties were made so that members could show off their regimental affiliations while in civilian dress.  I don't think I've ever seen the practice of wearing regimental ties in Service Dress with any British or other Commonwealth military force.

I personally think that wearing them while in DEU/Service Dress looks pretty cheesy when you've already got other more appropriate regimental identifiers on, such as cap and collar badges as well as shoulder titles and regimental buttons.  The regimental tie is just overkill. 

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I'm sure Michael D will be more than happy to jump into this one.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Not sure what to say - 1943 War Dress regs forbade regimental ties, but many regiments did it anyway, even the ones with Godawful ties like the Toronto Scottish and Irish Regiment who had some weird crocheted thingie in big broad horizontal stripes.

Depends on the regiment - in the Calgary Highlanders only Sr. NCOs and Officers (and pipers and drummers) get to wear them, MCpl and below wear CF Green in DEU.

As for cheesy, I never thought regimental pride could be expressed to the point of "overkill", but I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[Danjanou]

Tor Scots same thing WO's and Officers wore (at least when I was there) those "godawful" Regimental ties instread of the CF green ones with DEUs.

 

[dutchie]

In the Seaforths, no Regi Ties with DEUs from Private to Prince Phillip (our C in C).

Ok, if Prince Phillip wore a Regi tie, I don't think anyone would jack him up for it.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Ok, if Prince Phillip wore a Regi tie, I don't think anyone would jack him up for it.

Right, put the Seaforths down under "Cowards" then. 

 

 

[pbi]

In some ways we follow the good old British concept that to follow Army dress regulations would show a rather pedestrian lack of originality. (IE: any two Patricia officers in mess kit) Cheers.

 

[Matt_Fisher]

In some ways we follow the good old British concept that to follow Army dress regulations would show a rather pedestrian lack of originality. (IE: any two Patricia officers in mess kit) Cheers.

Good observation, however we must ask at some point "Where does the madness end?"  ;D

I may ask this though, if I were a Patricia subaltern and were to arrive at a Mess Dinner in mess kit with the old Lieutenant's pips rather than current CF Lieutenant's rank insignia, I would not receive a stern talking to by the regimental adjutant? 

 

[pbi]

Matt: few years ago (well...a good few years ago, actually) I would have said yes. I recall myself and some of my peers having our nasty garish ties chopped off with scissors by the Adjt at a dining in in Cyprus in 91.

Today....I don't really know any more. We have so many different variations of mess kit in circulation: different battalions, different tailors, different time periods of creation that I am not certain that the average Capt Adjt would even be able to tell the difference. If he could, he might not care. The things we generally have in common are scarlet tunics, french grey facings, and oxford blue trousers with a red stripe. After that, we have made a virtue of diversity. We do have very detailed instructions in our Regimental Manual as to all aspects of our Mess Kit, but although these make interesting reading, they are not honoured very closely. It is, I think, one of the things that marks us out from "The Other English Speaking Regiment": we are somewhat more cavalier about some things, for better or for worse. Cheers.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

I may ask this though, if I were a Patricia subaltern and were to arrive at a Mess Dinner in mess kit with the old Lieutenant's pips rather than current CF Lieutenant's rank insignia, I would not receive a stern talking to by the regimental adjutant? 

As irrelevant as this might be, in our officers mess, they never stopped wearing officer's stars and crowns on shoulder boards.  Stripes are for the navy....

 

[Marauder]

In the EK only officers wear the MacGregor tartan tie. Can't tell you if it's "legal", but that's how it's been done for as long as I can remember, and probably far longer than that anyway.

What the aerial pics of the Armoury complex don't show is the "water treatment" (re: sewage) plant less than 2 clicks downwind. There's a reason DND got such a "steal" on the price of the land to build where they did (and didn't the city just luck out to have DND share costs on building the new WPS training facility) Anyway, nice new place to play, but it feels like going back to high school every time I go there. Seriously. Kind weird nostalgia, huh. LOL

Matt were you EK before you joined the Green Machine?

 

[Matt_Fisher]

Marauder,

I was never EK.   I just happened to see the pictures of the new training facility on one of these subforums.

I spent 2 years in the BC Dragoons and 4 years in the BC Regiment before selling my soul to the devil in exchange to find my fortune in love and war.   >

PBI,

That story of the ties being clipped reminds me of when I worked at the National Rifle Association of America.   My director was extremely adament about being in proper business attire from Monday through Thursday (Friday's were business casual), meaning we had to wear at least shirt and tie, but a proper business suit was recommended.   One of my colleagues was having some pretty serious personality conflicts with the director, so he made it a point to never wear a tie to work, just to irk him.   Well the director finally had enough and threatened this fellow with dismissal if he were to come back from lunch that afternoon without a tie on.   During his lunch break this guy went to the Salvation Army thrift store and came back with about half a dozen of the most ridiculous ties he could find.   Ultimately he decided that a garish Santa Claus Christmas themed tie was most appropriate for wear, so he promptly reported into the director's office for inspection.   Did I mention that it was sometime in mid-July that this happened?    ;D  


In Patricia mess kit, is the jacket generally a tuxedo style one worn with a shirt and bow-tie, or is it the type that has a stand-up collar fastened and the rest of the jacket is left open and a vest is worn underneath and there is no bow-tie?

 

[pbi]

In Patricia mess kit, is the jacket generally a tuxedo style one worn with a shirt and bow-tie, or is it the type that has a stand-up collar fastened and the rest of the jacket is left open and a vest is worn underneath and there is no bow-tie?

It really varies. I have the single button with the wide open neck and normal collar, with a cummerbund. My tunic was made by British Custom in Victoria in the 1980's. My trousers, on the other hand, I just had made here in Winnipeg at Ralph's Custom and Military. However, that's just me. Some (older) officers wear the older closed-neck high collar, some officers wear a waistcoat instead of a cummerbund, and our lacing and shoulder straps are quite often different from officer to officer. Some officers wear plain studs, some (like me) regtl studs. (I had mine made in Cyprus in 91). Some wear spurs, some don't. A few of us still have the all-white summer jacket, which I am very fond of but rarely get a chance to wear (mine was also made in Cyprus).

My impression of the RCR (on the other hand) is that they are much more consistent (not to say boring.... >) and dress alike.

 

[Michael OLeary]

My impression of the RCR (on the other hand) is that they are much more consistent (not to say boring.... >) and dress alike.

Those poor Royals, always taking a beating.

An RCR regimental mess dinner spanning several generations of officers will see an equally surprising variety of mess dress, though it is starting to diminish as we haven't changed patterns in over 20+ years now. Each officer is permitted to wear the mess kit he purchased as a subaltern, and is not required to update it until he decides to replace it, at which time he is expected to replace it with the current approved version. That being said, if an officer has his own older version rebuilt, who's to know. Or if only certain accoutrements require replacement, it doesn't necessaily force him to replace the entire mess kit unless it would create such a mismatch of components as to not be close to either version. We also have the choice of red jacket with waistcoat (year round) or white jacket and regimental cummerbund (summer optional wear).  The difference, as pbi notes, will undoubtedly be in the details, different button studs, shirt collars, cufflinks, and watch chains/fobs (if worn), etc.

 

[bossi]

re: Regtl ties - In the 48th, offrs wear a striped tie (similar to a "school" tie), and the Sgts & Warrants wear ties made in Regimental tartan (Davidson)

re: Mess Kit - I've always liked the idea of "grandfather clauses" for mess kit, as described previously - unfortunately some others didn't and tried to force a new style of mess kit upon a certain mess ... but I know one of the old style still exists(!)

 

[Michael Dorosh]

re: Regtl ties - In the 48th, offrs wear a striped tie (similar to a "school" tie), and the Sgts & Warrants wear ties made in Regimental tartan (Davidson)

re: Mess Kit - I've always liked the idea of "grandfather clauses" for mess kit, as described previously - unfortunately some others didn't and tried to force a new style of mess kit upon a certain mess ... but I know one of the old style still exists(!)

Art Johnson tells me the officers of the 2nd Battalion of the 48th had regimental ties in horizontal stripes, with the 1st battalion wearing diagonal stripes - if I have remembered that correctly.   Seems to me he sent a colour photo which I hope I have somewhere...

Tartan ties WERE permitted as early as the 1943 War Dress regs, incidentally. 

 

[Eowyn]

As irrelevant as this might be, in our officers mess, they never stopped wearing officer's stars and crowns on shoulder boards.   Stripes are for the navy....

Actually Michael, the officers don't wear shoulder boards, but rather cords.