Regent Park Murder, Army Reservists convicted in homeless man's death

[medic65726]

>http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1125741951070&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968705899037&t=TS_Home<

Sep. 3, 2005. 08:35 AM

Army reservists charged in homeless man's beating death
Victim, 59, was found in park with fatal injuries

Female witness also attacked, police say


CANADIAN PRESS
WITH FILES FROM THESTAR.COM STAFF

Three members of the Canadian Armed Forces reserves are facing charges in the beating death of a homeless man in Toronto park.

Police were called to a downtown park early Wednesday where they found 59-year-old Paul Croutch unconscious and unresponsive.

Police said Friday that Croutch was taken to St. Michael's Hospital and died later that day from his injuries.

Police say an autopsy determined Croutch died from blows to the head consistent with being punched, kicked or stomped.

Police say a woman who witnessed the alleged assault suffered bruising when she was attacked.

Jeffery Hall, 21, Mountaz Ibrahim, 23, and Brian Deganis, 21, all of Toronto, are charged with second-degree murder and assault causing bodily harm.

All three are members of the Queen's Own Rifles, based at Moss Park Armoury at Queen S. E. and Jarvis St., police said.

City police and the Canadian Forces National Investigation Services were involved in the investigation.

The three men were scheduled to appear in a Toronto court Saturday.

 

[Slim]

Does anyone know whether the three were in uniform when this occured?

I'm betting that they weren't. and if not why are they refered to as army reservists?! Would we be reorting this in the same fashion if they were dentists, or MEMBERS OF THE PRESS?!

They do not in any way reflect the CF or the CF reserve...So why talk about them as if they were acting on orders to hurt these people?!

F*****G press makes me violently ill!

 

[NavComm]

Slim, I was thinking the same thing. Wonder what they do in their civvie jobs? Whatever it is, I suppose it's not interesting enough to sell papers.

 

[Marauder]

Before we marh the guilty bastards in, maybe we should wait to see if there is any substance to the charges. Is there physical ie DNA evidence that links them definetively, or are they simply relying on one eyewitness account, from a witness who may well have credibility problems, or some manner of phyisical/mental defect that affects her account?
Did a TPS officer acctualy lay eyes on the three accused beating the shit out of this guy? Let's face it, the homeless population usually has far more to fear from their peers than from roving bands of Reservists.

There may be far more to this story that comes out at first glance. Just because these three Rifleman have been charged does not translate to "Those three toons slotted some homeless bastard."

hang em, this makes us all look bad.

Grab a large rock, starting beating your own head in with it, and don't stop 'til I get tired. Calling you an idiot would be an unfair comparison to idiots the world over.

 

[hayterowensound]

Let's not forget that the article says, if it is correct. They also attacked the lady. It is embarrassing that these pigs called themselves reservist. If correct, hang'em.

 

[MikeM]

Gentlemen, let's just wait until the facts are released in full.

 

[jmacleod]

Slim's original post is right - came to exactly the same conclusion when I read this piece about
6:00 am this morning - the fact that they may (or may not) be Canadian Army Reservists has
absolutely nothing to do with their participation is what is an alleged, repeat, alleged offence
-there are no other comprehensive details about the event, just what has become a standard
media occupation in Canada: jumping to conclusions. Journalists for the most part know little
or nothing about the Canadian forces, and the younger journalists seemed primed for the
sensational, rather than the accurate. MacLeod

 

[Sapper6]

We are held to a higher level of scrutiny.   That comes with wearing a uniform, public trust in our use of force, and collecting our renumeration.   The fact that these three suspects are in the CF and possibly from the same unit is newsworthy.

I look forward to the official DND statement on this subject.

S6 out.

 

[mdh]

I understand Slim's frustration with the media. But incidents like this are going to happen.  The media is what it is - and you can spend a lot of time working yourself into a rage about it (I certainly have). However, as Pencil Tech said - we need to suck it up and deal with it in professional manner - and move on.

mdh

 

[Toronto_NCO]

Here is the Toronto Police News Release which has a tad bit more info...

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/pdfs/8384.pdf

 

[Pencil Tech]

Here is the Toronto Police News Release which has a tad bit more info...

http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/newsreleases/pdfs/8384.pdf

Wow. Guess the press aren't to blame for this at all are they? Looks like they just ran the TPS press release almost verbatim. So are we supposed to start crying about the the police making the army look bad now?

 

[Pencil Tech]

Capt O'Leary, if these mbrs are found guilty by the civilian courts, to what extent are they liable under the NDA, if they were not signed in when this happened?

 

[x-grunt]

the fact that they may (or may not) be Canadian Army Reservists has
absolutely nothing to do with their participation is what is an alleged, repeat, alleged offence
-there are no other comprehensive details about the event, just what has become a standard
media occupation in Canada: jumping to conclusions.

I challenge this. I saw no "jumping to conclusions." I think there are many people on this board who jump on the media, with the perception that there's some anti-military bias. Bullcrap.  Frankly, I think some people here are hyper-sensitive to perceived slights to the CF. In case you haven't noticed...the media is anti-everything by turns. The media is in the business of reporting news with an emphasis on some marketable aspect of the story. In this case, it will be the fact these three are Army reservists - which the public  perceives as trained and willing to kill.

I do not doubt those charged could have done it. ( I am not saying they did.)  I have personal knowledge of one other beatdown of a homeless addict by Moss Park reservists a few years ago. (no idea what unit, the person didn't know how to identify that. No police involvement.) So it can and does happen. And the armouries is in the middle of a less-than desireable neighbourhood with many homeless and drug addicts, with resulting friction. The beating was right next door to the armouries. And I'm guessing ( just a guess mind you ) that these three were all jumped up on being rough tough soldiers after being on an ex or being on course.

As for media making a big deal of the fact these people are in the CF, well, if 3 steelworkers stomped to death a homeless guy next door to their work site, you bet the newsie's would mention that fact. Plus,there's the very  interesting note the the CFNIS is involved, which automatically leads into the fact these people are CF.

I hate the bad press. It sucks...but it's not out of line with events as we know them right now.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Those on the forum with legal backgrounds are probably better able to answer, but I would think that rules of double jeopardy mean that they can only be charged under one system (NDA or CC) for the crime. If it is shown they were liable under the NDA at the time, an incident like this would still most likely be given over to the civil judicial system, considering the location (off military property I presume) and victim's status (civilian). The military reaction would most likely be release action after they were found guilty, if that was the result. If they are proven to have been involved, and even if homicide is not proven, it would be up to the unit to decide if any administrative action were to be taken.

Keep in mind the conditions under which a reservist is subject to the NDA:

60. (1) The following persons are subject to the Code of Service Discipline:

(c) an officer or non-commissioned member of the reserve force when the officer or non-commissioned member is

(i) undergoing drill or training, whether in uniform or not,

(ii) in uniform,

(iii) on duty,

(iv) [Repealed, 1998, c. 35, s. 19]

(v) called out under Part VI in aid of the civil power,

(vi) called out on service,

(vii) placed on active service,

(viii) in or on any vessel, vehicle or aircraft of the Canadian Forces or in or on any defence establishment or work for defence,

(ix) serving with any unit or other element of the regular force or the special force, or

(x) present, whether in uniform or not, at any drill or training of a unit or other element of the Canadian Forces;

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/N-5/85316.html#rid-85317

It remains in everyone's best interest to let the case unfold by due process.

 

[Pencil Tech]

Thank you Sir.

 

[48Highlander]

"Double Jeopardy" dosn't work that way, it's quite possible for them to be charged under both the Criminal Code and the NDA (assuming ofcourse that they were "on duty").   The NDA however does not cover murder, or even assault of civilians, so from what I can see, the worst they could be hit with under the NDA is "Conduct prejudiced to the good order and discipline of the CF".

As to their status, yes, all three are members of the QOR.   I don't know any of them extremely well, however I've worked with them in the past and the names are very familiar to me.   One of them is the brother of an ex-member of my own unit.   I have never seen anything in their previous conduct or attitudes to suggest that they would for no reason whatsoever assault and kill a defencless individual.

The comment about tensions in the area is bang on.   The area has a heavy presence of both the homeless, and the criminal element, neither of which have much love for the military.   It's not unusual for the boys to go hit one of the neighbourhood bars and afterwards end up in a shouting match with some of these individuals, who often have psychological problems and are either drunk, drugged up, or both.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to make excuses for them, just trying to provide some background information for those of you unfamiliar with the area.   Any further speculation about motives or circumstances would be useless, all we can do now is wait for the investigation to proceed and hopefuly shed some more light on what happened.




Edited to remove speculation

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Can everyone stop speculating and extroplating? The press comes here regularly trolling for info. Let's not give them any, especially if it's wrong or conjecture. Just report what is coming in over the wire and tv/ radio, and let the lawyers handle their court cases. We don't need to inadvertantley say something that may jeopardize the case. If the thread continues down the above path, it'll be moved.

 

[Michael OLeary]

"Double Jeopardy" dosn't work that way, it's quite possible for them to be charged under both the Criminal Code and the NDA (assuming ofcourse that they were "on duty").  The NDA however does not cover murder, or even assault of civilians, so from what I can see, the worst they could be hit with under the NDA is "Conduct prejudiced to the good order and discipline of the CF".

Which means they would not, in fact, be being charged in two courts for the same crime.

 

[jmacleod]

Toronto Star is careful to report that the arrest of the three individuals is based on an "alleged
offence". Toronto Star identifies the three individuals as members of the Reserve Army, Queen's
Own Rifles. The individuals will be appear in Court on Monday next (I doubt that the Court will
be open on Labor Day...) based on what I have read, the information in this case will lead into
a formal charge under an appropriate section of the Criminal Code of Canada with committing
what appears to be an indictable offence, but the alleged offence (could be one or two of
several) is not specified nor reported. Unless they were in uniform, as Reservists, there was
no need to mention the fact. It may or may not have a bearing on the prosecution or defence
of the alleged offence, or offences. This case will generate a lot of media coverage in Toronto
- it will be interesting to see how the MND Minister's office, a Toronto MP, deals with it.MacLeod

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

The military is just a slice of society so your gonna get your drug abusers, rapists, hard workers, only on a smaller scale.

I emailed the T.O. Star asking them why it was necessary to put their profession in the headline when others are only mentioned in the body.