Recruiting Posters Bad

[army]

Posted by Albert King <aking@mb.sympatico.ca> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:44:33 -0500
I just read this story in the National Post about how a military advisory board wants
CAF recruiting posters to show people working together instead of tanks and fighter
jets.
It was put forth by the CF Gender Integration Employment Equity Board which said
that the majority of the military‘s recruitment posters had pics of CF-18‘s and
Leopard Tanks, and frigates on them. The board said that it didn‘t see any
representation of a diverse workforce of people working together. The board also
complained about gender based language terms such as crewman or infantryman and
manpower. It also commented that a recruiting video that included this remark "I‘m
doing a man‘s job" was inconsistant with the principles of employment equity and
gender integration.
So basically this board wants a total review of all recruitment material and wants
recruitment posters to concentrate on diverse workforce and team relationships.
If that was ever achived I think that my confidence in our top officials would be
gone and I‘d reconsider my plans to join.
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[army]

Posted by Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 11:57:56 -0600
another example of civilian advisors mucking about in waters over their
heads
DND is not like National Revenue, Humar Resources, Transportation or the
Heritage Department
our role is, I‘ll argue, markedly different
but the lefty‘s in Ottawa won‘t be happy until we‘re planting trees and
hugging babies
> -----Original Message-----
> From:Albert King [SMTP:aking@mb.sympatico.ca]
> Sent:Friday, April 14, 2000 11:45 AM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:Recruiting Posters Bad
>
> I just read this story in the National Post about how a military advisory
> board wants
> CAF recruiting posters to show people working together instead of tanks
> and fighter
> jets.
>
> It was put forth by the CF Gender Integration Employment Equity Board
> which said
> that the majority of the military‘s recruitment posters had pics of
> CF-18‘s and
> Leopard Tanks, and frigates on them. The board said that it didn‘t see any
> representation of a diverse workforce of people working together. The
> board also
> complained about gender based language terms such as crewman or
> infantryman and
> manpower. It also commented that a recruiting video that included this
> remark "I‘m
> doing a man‘s job" was inconsistant with the principles of employment
> equity and
> gender integration.
>
> So basically this board wants a total review of all recruitment material
> and wants
> recruitment posters to concentrate on diverse workforce and team
> relationships.
>
> If that was ever achived I think that my confidence in our top officials
> would be
> gone and I‘d reconsider my plans to join.
>
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[army]

Posted by Clive.Law@dfait-maeci.gc.ca on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:22:16 -0400
I don‘t even want to touch on the issue of gender-integration of the CF or
how to make our "trained killers" a kinder, gentler breed. Rather I would
like to point out another war poster whose message was vilified but which,
in later years, became famous. I refer to the British World War I poster
that stated "Only Your Work, Your Effort and Your Blood or words to that
effect will bring Us Victory." The subtle message was that YOUR read
working class would bring victory to US read ruling class.
As to the current rumours about changing the CF poster, Albert, you are
still joining the same proud Army. You will still be sweating bullets,
humping gear, learning your trade, and training yourself to be part of your
nation‘s ‘sharp‘ end. No PC change in poster design will alter that. The
only thing that poster will do is encourage the enlistment of women into the
CF. Unfortunately, statistics have shown that females do not succeed at
Combat Arms in appreciable numbers and the taxpayer will have to foot the
bill for the training wasted on them at the expense of a male who has a
greater, statistical, chance of graduating and thriving in the C/A
environment.
Clive
-----Original Message-----
From: Albert King [mailto:aking@mb.sympatico.ca]
Sent: April 14, 2000 1:45 PM
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: Recruiting Posters Bad
I just read this story in the National Post about how a military advisory
board wants
CAF recruiting posters to show people working together instead of tanks and
fighter
jets.
It was put forth by the CF Gender Integration Employment Equity Board
which said
that the majority of the military‘s recruitment posters had pics of CF-18‘s
and
Leopard Tanks, and frigates on them. The board said that it didn‘t see any
representation of a diverse workforce of people working together. The board
also
complained about gender based language terms such as crewman or infantryman
and
manpower. It also commented that a recruiting video that included this
remark "I‘m
doing a man‘s job" was inconsistant with the principles of employment equity
and
gender integration.
So basically this board wants a total review of all recruitment material and
wants
recruitment posters to concentrate on diverse workforce and team
relationships.
If that was ever achived I think that my confidence in our top officials
would be
gone and I‘d reconsider my plans to join.
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[army]

Posted by "Caylynn" <caylynn@animail.net> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:00:50 -0400
One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
push me into engineering.
Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
succeed.
Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the Environment!
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[army]

Posted by Clive.Law@dfait-maeci.gc.ca on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:27:14 -0400
Well said Caylynn,
It is unfortunate that we get leaders who try to match the CF to the general
population and then insist that xx of the Combat Arms consist of women, or
Native Peoples, or neo-Canadian or any other tag. Imagine if other levels of
government decided to force hiring along those lines? Will we insist that
50 of waste collection workers we used to call them garbagemen be female?
that 50 of day care providers be men? The important thing to be remembered
here is to allow a free person free choice and then to protect that person‘s
choice from bias and prejudice. It is NOT to force a choice that must be an
oxymoron on an individual.
-----Original Message-----
From: Caylynn [mailto:caylynn@animail.net]
Sent: April 14, 2000 3:01 PM
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
push me into engineering.
Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
succeed.
Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the Environment!
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[army]

Posted by Arcangel <jechen@mail.sprint.ca> on Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:30:36 -0700
Doesn‘t the US have a congressional/DOD ban on Women
in Combat arms? I was wondering if Canada has a similar rule?
If only Canada has a fighting force as good as the United States
Marine Corps!JC
At 03:00 PM 4/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
>Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
>Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
>but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
>medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
>
>When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
>engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
>though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
>know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
>interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
>accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
>push me into engineering.
>
>Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
>should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
>should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
>should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
>CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
>certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
>handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
>ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
>get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
>succeed.
>
>Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
>
>http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the Environment!
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
>
>
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[army]

Posted by "Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@HOTMAIL.COM> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:53:26 EDT
1. Females are allowed in the cmbt arms in Canada. Infact some of the
females I‘ve seen in the arms can do the job a lot better than us
2. The Canadian Army as hole is a much better fighting force than Uncle
Sam‘s Misguided Children. The Canadian soldier is train to operate not only
as team member, but as a individual A leader. The Canadian Soldier does
not rely on GPS, multi million dollar weapon systems, and technology to do
our job. We rely on the basic soldier skills to accomplish our missions.
When you see American C/Ss broke down at the side of the road, with their
crews standing around lost, waiting recovery to come and repair a thrown
track, you‘ll understand what makes us that much better than the American
Soldier/Marine.
>From: Arcangel
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:30:36 -0700
>
>Doesn‘t the US have a congressional/DOD ban on Women
>in Combat arms? I was wondering if Canada has a similar rule?
>If only Canada has a fighting force as good as the United States
>Marine Corps!JC
>
>
>At 03:00 PM 4/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
> >One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
> >Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
> >Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
> >but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
> >medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
> >
> >When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
> >engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
> >though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
> >know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
> >interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
> >accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
> >push me into engineering.
> >
> >Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
> >should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
> >should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
> >should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
> >CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
> >certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
> >handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
> >ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
> >get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
> >succeed.
> >
> >Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
> >
> >http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the
>Environment!
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
> >
> >
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[army]

Posted by "Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@HOTMAIL.COM> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 02:56:01 EDT
If you check a little closer with CFRC, or your units headshed, you will see
that there is NO QUOATA in the CF. Project goals yes, quoata no.
>From: Clive.Law@dfait-maeci.gc.ca
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: RE: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:27:14 -0400
>
>Well said Caylynn,
>
>It is unfortunate that we get leaders who try to match the CF to the
>general
>population and then insist that xx of the Combat Arms consist of women, or
>Native Peoples, or neo-Canadian or any other tag. Imagine if other levels
>of
>government decided to force hiring along those lines? Will we insist that
>50 of waste collection workers we used to call them garbagemen be
>female?
>that 50 of day care providers be men? The important thing to be remembered
>here is to allow a free person free choice and then to protect that
>person‘s
>choice from bias and prejudice. It is NOT to force a choice that must be
>an
>oxymoron on an individual.
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Caylynn [mailto:caylynn@animail.net]
>Sent: April 14, 2000 3:01 PM
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>
>
>One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
>Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
>Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
>but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
>medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
>
>When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
>engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
>though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
>know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
>interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
>accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
>push me into engineering.
>
>Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
>should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
>should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
>should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
>CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
>certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
>handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
>ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
>get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
>succeed.
>
>Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
>
>http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the Environment!
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
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[army]

Posted by "Scott Lloyd" <elscotto@sprint.ca> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 13:26:44 -0300
I could see where you could get your ideas, american propaganda. We see the
movies, we see the TV and the book. But you are sadly mistaken, each and
every Canadian soldier, that I have met was able to act independantly. If
you want brain washed robots to do the country‘s bidding there are
advanteges. Personnally, want soldiers who can provide me with options,
when I can‘t think of any, but at the same time when I decide on a course of
action, these same Canadian soldiers execute it to the best of thier
ability, without question....
Second point.... I hope that you are not inferring that because there are
no women in combat roles in the US Army and USMC that the Americans are
superior,
Well I have ranted enough for the weekend..
Scott
-----Original Message-----
From: Arcangel
To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
Date: April 14, 2000 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>Doesn‘t the US have a congressional/DOD ban on Women
>in Combat arms? I was wondering if Canada has a similar rule?
>If only Canada has a fighting force as good as the United States
>Marine Corps! JC
>
>
>At 03:00 PM 4/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>>One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
>>Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
>>Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
>>but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
>>medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
>>
>>When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
>>engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
>>though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
>>know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
>>interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
>>accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
>>push me into engineering.
>>
>>Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
>>should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
>>should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
>>should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
>>CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
>>certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
>>handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
>>ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
>>get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
>>succeed.
>>
>>Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
>>
>>http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the Environment!
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>message body.
>>
>>
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>
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[army]

Posted by Arcangel <jechen@mail.sprint.ca> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:15:52 -0700
Well I believe a superior fighting force includes both technology,
firepower, and numbers of people which Canada does not have
right now. Remember the Avro Aero? that was our "Stealth Bomber"
program if that dope Diefenbaker hadn‘t scratched it for some
dumb domestic project. Our aircraft? what aircraft? the CF-18
is a carrier fighter, not an Airforce fighter, we need some aircraft
carriers to go with this kind of aircraft along with a F-14 tomcat
and A-6 Intruder. Isreal can easily beat us in a battle---we‘d get
nuked over and under--extra crispy. Vimy‘s ridge I grant is was
only moment of Canadian glory in battle and perhaps some small
battles in the other wars in history, but where is our Field Marshal
Montgomeries? our George S. Patton‘s? certainly not St. Joan of Arc
since the country is so secularized an unreligious these-days to
produce "Holy Warriors". The list can go on and on, please vote
Canadian Alliance so we can have a real army.
At 01:26 PM 4/15/00 -0300, you wrote:
>I could see where you could get your ideas, american propaganda. We see the
>movies, we see the TV and the book. But you are sadly mistaken, each and
>every Canadian soldier, that I have met was able to act independantly. If
>you want brain washed robots to do the country‘s bidding there are
>advanteges. Personnally, want soldiers who can provide me with options,
>when I can‘t think of any, but at the same time when I decide on a course of
>action, these same Canadian soldiers execute it to the best of thier
>ability, without question....
> Second point.... I hope that you are not inferring that because there are
>no women in combat roles in the US Army and USMC that the Americans are
>superior,
>
>Well I have ranted enough for the weekend..
>
>Scott
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Arcangel
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Date: April 14, 2000 4:46 PM
>Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>
>
>>Doesn‘t the US have a congressional/DOD ban on Women
>>in Combat arms? I was wondering if Canada has a similar rule?
>>If only Canada has a fighting force as good as the United States
>>Marine Corps! JC
>>
>>
>>At 03:00 PM 4/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>>>One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
>>>Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
>>>Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
>>>but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
>>>medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
>>>
>>>When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
>>>engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
>>>though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
>>>know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
>>>interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
>>>accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
>>>push me into engineering.
>>>
>>>Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
>>>should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
>>>should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
>>>should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
>>>CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
>>>certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
>>>handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
>>>ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
>>>get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
>>>succeed.
>>>
>>>Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
>>>
>>>http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the Environment!
>>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>>message body.
>>>
>>>
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>>
>
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[army]

Posted by Arcangel <jechen@mail.sprint.ca> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:22:07 -0700
At 02:53 AM 4/15/00 EDT, you wrote:
>1. Females are allowed in the cmbt arms in Canada. Infact some of the
>females I‘ve seen in the arms can do the job a lot better than us
Which one? St. Joan of Arc is the exception as she is a warrior from
God, but then again the society is too secularized to see this.
Unfortunately, having females in cmbt arms also has the logical outcome
of orphaning children if they have any if Canada decides to go to war.
>2. The Canadian Army as hole is a much better fighting force than Uncle
>Sam‘s Misguided Children. The Canadian soldier is train to operate not only
>as team member, but as a individual A leader. The Canadian Soldier does
>not rely on GPS, multi million dollar weapon systems, and technology to do
>our job. We rely on the basic soldier skills to accomplish our missions.
>When you see American C/Ss broke down at the side of the road, with their
>crews standing around lost, waiting recovery to come and repair a thrown
>track, you‘ll understand what makes us that much better than the American
>Soldier/Marine.
A few nuclear warheads, Minutemans and Titan IIs can waste our entire army
in one shot--technology or no techology whether we are fighting as
individuals or
as a team that‘s why Canada has to arm up fast with the best technology
possible
and lot‘s of Firepower to have a fighting chance against some of the
countries today..
Canada vs. China?not a chance, Canada vs. Russia?not a chance, etc and etc.
>
>>From: Arcangel
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 12:30:36 -0700
>>
>>Doesn‘t the US have a congressional/DOD ban on Women
>>in Combat arms? I was wondering if Canada has a similar rule?
>>If only Canada has a fighting force as good as the United States
>>Marine Corps!JC
>>
>>
>>At 03:00 PM 4/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>> >One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
>> >Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
>> >Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
>> >but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
>> >medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
>> >
>> >When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
>> >engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
>> >though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
>> >know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
>> >interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
>> >accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
>> >push me into engineering.
>> >
>> >Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
>> >should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
>> >should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
>> >should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
>> >CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
>> >certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
>> >handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
>> >ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
>> >get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
>> >succeed.
>> >
>> >Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
>> >
>> >http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the
>>Environment!
>> >--------------------------------------------------------
>> >NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >message body.
>> >
>> >
>>-----------------------------------------------------
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>>http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------
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>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>message body.
>
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[army]

Posted by "Chrid Loveridge" <cloveridge@HOTMAIL.COM> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 15:40:30 EDT
1. The CF 105 Avro Arrow was scrapped in favour of the American made Bomarc
Nuclear AD Missile, not a domestic project
2. The McDonnel Douglas F/A. 18 Hornet AKA CF 188B, is a multi role air
superiory fighter. I would put A Canadian "Hornet" up against a Yank Falcon
or Eagle any day the week. Chances are the Bug jockey would come out on
top.
3. As for the Isrealies, if you look at a map, the reasons why the
Isrealies come out on top, is pretty obvoius. If they where to lose, there
would be NO ISREAL. We as Canadians are lucky that we aren‘t surrounded by
numerous pissed off neihbours who don‘t like us or want us there.
4. As for the Yank army/jarines, if ever have the humours fortune of
dealing with them on a somewhat regular basis, you‘ll see that their
individual soldiering skills are NON-EXISTANT. I agree that a modern mech
army is a requirement on the modern battlefield, but at sometime after the
position has pounded by Arty, Clobbered by tank fire, Strafed by aircraft,
the Infantry have to dismount from their chariots, close with and DESTROY
the enemy. This is where the Americans are lacking. They don‘t realize
that Infantry eventually have to fix bayonets a fight violently and
individually, with out the use of technology thru and beyond the objective.
This is where battles are won. Not by 30 million dollar A\C, 3 million
dollar MBTs, by men with soldier skills, initiative, agression,
determination and dicsipline equipted with a $1500 rifle and $32 Bayonet.
>From: Arcangel
>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:15:52 -0700
>
>Well I believe a superior fighting force includes both technology,
>firepower, and numbers of people which Canada does not have
>right now. Remember the Avro Aero? that was our "Stealth Bomber"
>program if that dope Diefenbaker hadn‘t scratched it for some
>dumb domestic project. Our aircraft? what aircraft? the CF-18
>is a carrier fighter, not an Airforce fighter, we need some aircraft
>carriers to go with this kind of aircraft along with a F-14 tomcat
>and A-6 Intruder. Isreal can easily beat us in a battle---we‘d get
>nuked over and under--extra crispy. Vimy‘s ridge I grant is was
>only moment of Canadian glory in battle and perhaps some small
>battles in the other wars in history, but where is our Field Marshal
>Montgomeries? our George S. Patton‘s? certainly not St. Joan of Arc
>since the country is so secularized an unreligious these-days to
>produce "Holy Warriors". The list can go on and on, please vote
>Canadian Alliance so we can have a real army.
>At 01:26 PM 4/15/00 -0300, you wrote:
> >I could see where you could get your ideas, american propaganda. We see
>the
> >movies, we see the TV and the book. But you are sadly mistaken, each
>and
> >every Canadian soldier, that I have met was able to act independantly. If
> >you want brain washed robots to do the country‘s bidding there are
> >advanteges. Personnally, want soldiers who can provide me with options,
> >when I can‘t think of any, but at the same time when I decide on a course
>of
> >action, these same Canadian soldiers execute it to the best of thier
> >ability, without question....
> > Second point.... I hope that you are not inferring that because there
>are
> >no women in combat roles in the US Army and USMC that the Americans are
> >superior,
> >
> >Well I have ranted enough for the weekend..
> >
> >Scott
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Arcangel
> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >Date: April 14, 2000 4:46 PM
> >Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
> >
> >
> >>Doesn‘t the US have a congressional/DOD ban on Women
> >>in Combat arms? I was wondering if Canada has a similar rule?
> >>If only Canada has a fighting force as good as the United States
> >>Marine Corps! JC
> >>
> >>
> >>At 03:00 PM 4/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
> >>>One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
> >>>Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
> >>>Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
> >>>but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
> >>>medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
> >>>
> >>>When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
> >>>engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
> >>>though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
> >>>know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
> >>>interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
> >>>accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
> >>>push me into engineering.
> >>>
> >>>Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
> >>>should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
> >>>should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
> >>>should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
> >>>CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
> >>>certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
> >>>handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
> >>>ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
> >>>get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
> >>>succeed.
> >>>
> >>>Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
> >>>
> >>>http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the
>Environment!
> >>>--------------------------------------------------------
> >>>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >>>message body.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>-----------------------------------------------------
> >>Click here for Free Video!!
> >>http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
> >>
> >>--------------------------------------------------------
> >>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >>message body.
> >>
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
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> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
> >
> >
>-----------------------------------------------------
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>
>--------------------------------------------------------
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[army]

Posted by Arcangel <jechen@mail.sprint.ca> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 21:49:13 -0700
or the Boxer Rebellion, Martial Arts versus Muskets and Cannons.
Enter the Dragon with a Minuteman or two.
At 03:40 PM 4/15/00 EDT, you wrote:
>1. The CF 105 Avro Arrow was scrapped in favour of the American made Bomarc
>Nuclear AD Missile, not a domestic project
>2. The McDonnel Douglas F/A. 18 Hornet AKA CF 188B, is a multi role air
>superiory fighter. I would put A Canadian "Hornet" up against a Yank Falcon
>or Eagle any day the week. Chances are the Bug jockey would come out on
>top.
>3. As for the Isrealies, if you look at a map, the reasons why the
>Isrealies come out on top, is pretty obvoius. If they where to lose, there
>would be NO ISREAL. We as Canadians are lucky that we aren‘t surrounded by
>numerous pissed off neihbours who don‘t like us or want us there.
>
>4. As for the Yank army/jarines, if ever have the humours fortune of
>dealing with them on a somewhat regular basis, you‘ll see that their
>individual soldiering skills are NON-EXISTANT. I agree that a modern mech
>army is a requirement on the modern battlefield, but at sometime after the
>position has pounded by Arty, Clobbered by tank fire, Strafed by aircraft,
>the Infantry have to dismount from their chariots, close with and DESTROY
>the enemy. This is where the Americans are lacking. They don‘t realize
>that Infantry eventually have to fix bayonets a fight violently and
>individually, with out the use of technology thru and beyond the objective.
> This is where battles are won. Not by 30 million dollar A\C, 3 million
>dollar MBTs, by men with soldier skills, initiative, agression,
>determination and dicsipline equipted with a $1500 rifle and $32 Bayonet.
>
>>From: Arcangel
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:15:52 -0700
>>
>>Well I believe a superior fighting force includes both technology,
>>firepower, and numbers of people which Canada does not have
>>right now. Remember the Avro Aero? that was our "Stealth Bomber"
>>program if that dope Diefenbaker hadn‘t scratched it for some
>>dumb domestic project. Our aircraft? what aircraft? the CF-18
>>is a carrier fighter, not an Airforce fighter, we need some aircraft
>>carriers to go with this kind of aircraft along with a F-14 tomcat
>>and A-6 Intruder. Isreal can easily beat us in a battle---we‘d get
>>nuked over and under--extra crispy. Vimy‘s ridge I grant is was
>>only moment of Canadian glory in battle and perhaps some small
>>battles in the other wars in history, but where is our Field Marshal
>>Montgomeries? our George S. Patton‘s? certainly not St. Joan of Arc
>>since the country is so secularized an unreligious these-days to
>>produce "Holy Warriors". The list can go on and on, please vote
>>Canadian Alliance so we can have a real army.
>>At 01:26 PM 4/15/00 -0300, you wrote:
>> >I could see where you could get your ideas, american propaganda. We see
>>the
>> >movies, we see the TV and the book. But you are sadly mistaken, each
>>and
>> >every Canadian soldier, that I have met was able to act independantly. If
>> >you want brain washed robots to do the country‘s bidding there are
>> >advanteges. Personnally, want soldiers who can provide me with options,
>> >when I can‘t think of any, but at the same time when I decide on a course
>>of
>> >action, these same Canadian soldiers execute it to the best of thier
>> >ability, without question....
>> > Second point.... I hope that you are not inferring that because there
>>are
>> >no women in combat roles in the US Army and USMC that the Americans are
>> >superior,
>> >
>> >Well I have ranted enough for the weekend..
>> >
>> >Scott
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Arcangel
>> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>> >Date: April 14, 2000 4:46 PM
>> >Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>> >
>> >
>> >>Doesn‘t the US have a congressional/DOD ban on Women
>> >>in Combat arms? I was wondering if Canada has a similar rule?
>> >>If only Canada has a fighting force as good as the United States
>> >>Marine Corps! JC
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>At 03:00 PM 4/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>> >>>One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
>> >>>Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
>> >>>Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
>> >>>but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
>> >>>medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
>> >>>
>> >>>When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
>> >>>engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
>> >>>though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
>> >>>know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
>> >>>interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
>> >>>accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
>> >>>push me into engineering.
>> >>>
>> >>>Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
>> >>>should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
>> >>>should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
>> >>>should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
>> >>>CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
>> >>>certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
>> >>>handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
>> >>>ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
>> >>>get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
>> >>>succeed.
>> >>>
>> >>>Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
>> >>>
>> >>>http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the
>>Environment!
>> >>>--------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> >>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >>>message body.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>-----------------------------------------------------
>> >>Click here for Free Video!!
>> >>http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
>> >>
>> >>--------------------------------------------------------
>> >>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >>message body.
>> >>
>> >
>> >--------------------------------------------------------
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>> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >message body.
>> >
>> >
>>-----------------------------------------------------
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>>http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>message body.
>
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[army]

Posted by Arcangel <jechen@mail.sprint.ca> on Sat, 15 Apr 2000 22:06:30 -0700
At 03:40 PM 4/15/00 EDT, you wrote:
>1. The CF 105 Avro Arrow was scrapped in favour of the American made Bomarc
>Nuclear AD Missile, not a domestic project
The Arrow can kick migs and F-106 anyday, if only we can have a wing or two
right-now.
>2. The McDonnel Douglas F/A. 18 Hornet AKA CF 188B, is a multi role air
>superiory fighter. I would put A Canadian "Hornet" up against a Yank Falcon
>or Eagle any day the week. Chances are the Bug jockey would come out on
>top.
I‘d steal the F-22Raptor build up here and build a big-wing along with some
B-2s, yeah!
>3. As for the Isrealies, if you look at a map, the reasons why the
>Isrealies come out on top, is pretty obvoius. If they where to lose, there
>would be NO ISREAL. We as Canadians are lucky that we aren‘t surrounded by
>numerous pissed off neihbours who don‘t like us or want us there.
We are luckly until God gets pissed.
>
>4. As for the Yank army/jarines, if ever have the humours fortune of
>dealing with them on a somewhat regular basis, you‘ll see that their
>individual soldiering skills are NON-EXISTANT. I agree that a modern mech
>army is a requirement on the modern battlefield, but at sometime after the
>position has pounded by Arty, Clobbered by tank fire, Strafed by aircraft,
>the Infantry have to dismount from their chariots, close with and DESTROY
>the enemy. This is where the Americans are lacking. They don‘t realize
>that Infantry eventually have to fix bayonets a fight violently and
>individually, with out the use of technology thru and beyond the objective.
> This is where battles are won. Not by 30 million dollar A\C, 3 million
>dollar MBTs, by men with soldier skills, initiative, agression,
>determination and dicsipline equipted with a $1500 rifle and $32 Bayonet.
or a Samarai sword with Martial Arts as my ancestors have fought.
>
>>From: Arcangel
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>>Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 12:15:52 -0700
>>
>>Well I believe a superior fighting force includes both technology,
>>firepower, and numbers of people which Canada does not have
>>right now. Remember the Avro Aero? that was our "Stealth Bomber"
>>program if that dope Diefenbaker hadn‘t scratched it for some
>>dumb domestic project. Our aircraft? what aircraft? the CF-18
>>is a carrier fighter, not an Airforce fighter, we need some aircraft
>>carriers to go with this kind of aircraft along with a F-14 tomcat
>>and A-6 Intruder. Isreal can easily beat us in a battle---we‘d get
>>nuked over and under--extra crispy. Vimy‘s ridge I grant is was
>>only moment of Canadian glory in battle and perhaps some small
>>battles in the other wars in history, but where is our Field Marshal
>>Montgomeries? our George S. Patton‘s? certainly not St. Joan of Arc
>>since the country is so secularized an unreligious these-days to
>>produce "Holy Warriors". The list can go on and on, please vote
>>Canadian Alliance so we can have a real army.
>>At 01:26 PM 4/15/00 -0300, you wrote:
>> >I could see where you could get your ideas, american propaganda. We see
>>the
>> >movies, we see the TV and the book. But you are sadly mistaken, each
>>and
>> >every Canadian soldier, that I have met was able to act independantly. If
>> >you want brain washed robots to do the country‘s bidding there are
>> >advanteges. Personnally, want soldiers who can provide me with options,
>> >when I can‘t think of any, but at the same time when I decide on a course
>>of
>> >action, these same Canadian soldiers execute it to the best of thier
>> >ability, without question....
>> > Second point.... I hope that you are not inferring that because there
>>are
>> >no women in combat roles in the US Army and USMC that the Americans are
>> >superior,
>> >
>> >Well I have ranted enough for the weekend..
>> >
>> >Scott
>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Arcangel
>> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>> >Date: April 14, 2000 4:46 PM
>> >Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>> >
>> >
>> >>Doesn‘t the US have a congressional/DOD ban on Women
>> >>in Combat arms? I was wondering if Canada has a similar rule?
>> >>If only Canada has a fighting force as good as the United States
>> >>Marine Corps! JC
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>At 03:00 PM 4/14/00 -0400, you wrote:
>> >>>One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
>> >>>Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
>> >>>Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
>> >>>but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
>> >>>medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
>> >>>
>> >>>When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me into
>> >>>engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
>> >>>though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
>> >>>know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am, however,
>> >>>interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
>> >>>accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying to
>> >>>push me into engineering.
>> >>>
>> >>>Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
>> >>>should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And women
>> >>>should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
>> >>>should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
>> >>>CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
>> >>>certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
>> >>>handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely the
>> >>>ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
>> >>>get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
>> >>>succeed.
>> >>>
>> >>>Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
>> >>>
>> >>>http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the
>>Environment!
>> >>>--------------------------------------------------------
>> >>>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> >>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >>>message body.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>-----------------------------------------------------
>> >>Click here for Free Video!!
>> >>http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
>> >>
>> >>--------------------------------------------------------
>> >>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> >>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >>message body.
>> >>
>> >
>> >--------------------------------------------------------
>> >NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>> >message body.
>> >
>> >
>>-----------------------------------------------------
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>>http://www.gohip.com/freevideo/
>>
>>--------------------------------------------------------
>>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>>message body.
>
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>
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[army]

Posted by "Tommy5" <Tommy5@goplay.com> on Mon, 17 Apr 2000 07:50:56 -0800
"Chrid Loveridge" wrote on Saturday April
15, 2000 at 3:51pm:
>If you check a little closer with CFRC, or your units headshed, you
will see
>that there is NO QUOATA in the CF. Project goals yes, quoata no.
>
>>From: Clive.Law@dfait-maeci.gc.ca
>>Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>Subject: RE: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>>Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 15:27:14 -0400
>>
>>Well said Caylynn,
>>
>>It is unfortunate that we get leaders who try to match the CF to
the
>>general
>>population and then insist that xx of the Combat Arms consist of
women, or
>>Native Peoples, or neo-Canadian or any other tag. Imagine if other
levels
>>of
>>government decided to force hiring along those lines? Will we
insist that
>>50 of waste collection workers we used to call them garbagemen
be
>>female?
>>that 50 of day care providers be men? The important thing to be
remembered
>>here is to allow a free person free choice and then to protect that
>>person‘s
>>choice from bias and prejudice. It is NOT to force a choice that
must be
>>an
>>oxymoron on an individual.
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Caylynn [mailto:caylynn@animail.net]
>>Sent: April 14, 2000 3:01 PM
>>To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
>>Subject: Re: RE: Recruiting Posters Bad
>>
>>
>>One of the sad things is that most women don‘t want to serve in the
>>Combat Arms, so why are they trying to push us in that direction?
>>Yes, there are some women who *do* want to serve in the combat arms,
>>but there‘s a reason the majority of the women in the CF are in
>>medical or support positions: because that‘s what we enjoy!
>>
>>When I was at the Recruiting Centre, they kept trying to push me
into
>>engineering because I have a biological engineering degree even
>>though I‘m not in the least interested in military engineering. I
>>know what military engineers do, and it‘s not for me. I am,
however,
>>interested in serving as a nurse or a logistics officer. They
>>accepted that at the Recruiting Centre, but they still kept trying
to
>>push me into engineering.
>>
>>Should the CF accept women in the Combat Arms? Certainly. Women
>>should be allowed to serve in any capacity that they wish. And
women
>>should be treated fairly if that is their decision - ie. the men
>>should not look down on them because they are women. But should the
>>CF try to push more women into the Combat Arms, or try to achieve a
>>certain number of women in the Combat Arms? Definitely not. The
>>handful of women who are interested in the Combat Arms are likely
the
>>ones who will do well there. The ones who aren‘t interested but who
>>get persuaded or pushed into trying it are likely the ones who won‘t
>>succeed.
>>
>>Anyhow, as a women, those are my thoughts.
>>
I totaly agree what Canada is doing is enforceing Racisim if they
try to hire certain pepoles or genders they are in fact the ones who
promte racism. Yes I feel you can target certain people with
advertising, but do not have quotes for them joining up.
Tommy
>>http://www.care2.com - Homebase for people who care about the
Environment!
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>
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[army]

Posted by "Ryan Youngson" <ryoungson@HOTMAIL.COM> on Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:12:13 CDT
Hey Tommy5, what‘s the difference between "project goals" and "quotas"? In
this case there isn‘t any difference. They both translate into "bull****".
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