Posted by Gunner <randr1@home.com> on Sat, 08 Apr 2000 12:47:07 -0600
Paul Hellyer, not Paul Helyer. I sometimes thing Hellyer paid the price
for doing something that should have been done after WWII and that the
three services couldn‘t do on their own. The declining defence budget,
interservice rivalry and competitiveness, the Admiral‘s revolt under
Landrymore...there were serious problems with the military at that time
and they weren‘t the "Good Old Days" as some would have you believe.
Was the Hellyerization of the military perfect, of course not, however,
I don‘t think anyone took another serious look at the military until
Perrin I want subs! Beatty came along unfortunately the country was
not willing to follow the PCs or able to pay the bill. Take Art
Eggleton, if he ever makes a decision on Reserve Restructure, even
though it is considered the right one, he will be either branded a
"destroyer" of the reserves, or the "destroyer" of an opportunity to
make the military more relevant in the 21st century.
Cheers!
John Hill wrote:
>
> To my deep regret, Paul Helyer....I know, I know, but I didn‘t have much of
> a choice at the time.
>
> >From: Gunner
> >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> >Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 20:45:48 -0600
> >
> >The MND doesn‘t have ADCs...Aide de Camps are only used by Royalty and
> >General Officers. The MND has what is know as Military Staff Officers.
> >The fact is units, bases and formations are raised and "disbanded" based
> >on the stroke of a pen, known as a CFOO Canadian Forces Organizational
> >Order. Which MND did you serve under? Unless it was before
> >unification, I don‘t believe things were that different in the late
> >60s/70s.
> >
> >I‘ve been wrong before, but, I was usually mistaken!
> >
> >Cheers!
> >
> >John Hill wrote:
> > >
> > > I‘ve got to disagree with you. I‘m also speaking from the experiance of
> >the
> > > 2 years I was "exiled in the MNDs‘ Office as an ADC.
> > >
> > > >Nope your wrong. The CDS does not have the power to activate or
> > > >deactivate units. That remains with the political authority MND.
> > > >This becomes a problem, for instance, in reserve restrucuture where the
> > > >military wants to "retire" reserve units as they are no longer
> >relevant,
> > > >affordable and/or viable. When the CDS presented the options for the
> > > >Reserves it then moved into the political realm. Hence the wait.
> > > >
> > > >Of note, the CDSs powers remain the same during peace and war ... there
> > > >is no "normal" time for him to be politically astute. His influence
> > > >rather increases and decreases as the internal and external threat
> > > >warrant.
> > > >
> > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > What happened at that point was activation of the Ministers‘ white
> >paper
> > > >and
> > > > > a reformation of that element as a whole. But the CDS has the power
> >to
> > > > > activate units... That being said, it would be politically astute
> >for
> > > >the
> > > > > CDS to do so on his own during "normal" times. Does that clear it
> >up?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >John, I‘m not sure what you mean when you say the CDS has the
> >delegated
> > > > > >power to activate units. When 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR and 3 R22R were
> >reformed
> > > > > >it was authorized by the MND through a CFOO...hence it was not the
> >CDSs
> > > > > >decision to activate them, rather, he recommended approval of the
> >CFOO.
> > > > > >The CDS is commissioned to exercise command and control of units,
> >bases
> > > > > >and formations of the CF. To activate those units, bases and
> > > >formations
> > > > > >of the CF requires political approval.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >Comments?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Actually, the CDS has the delegated power to activate units. To
> > > >form or
> > > > > > > disband units is still the prerogative of the MND.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >From: Gunner
> > > > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 15:40:28 -0700
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >Actually the CDS does not have the power to form or disband
> >units
> > > >under
> > > > > > > >his command, he can only recommend. Units are formed by a
> >Canadain
> > > > > > > >Forces Organization Order CFOO signed by the MND. Part of
> >the
> > > > > >problem
> > > > > > > >with Reserve Restructure is the MND must be the one to
> >"disband"
> > > >units
> > > > > > > >and place them on the Supplementary Order of Battle, hence, he
> >will
> > > >be
> > > > > > > >held politically liable for that action. We all know what
> >happens
> > > >when
> > > > > > > >a politician could be held accountable for
> >something...indecision.
> > > >Of
> > > > > > > >note, if the CF endorses the Army‘s plan of a two brigade
> >structure
> > > >for
> > > > > > > >its‘ Regular formations and units, what‘s to stop incorporating
> >the
> > > > > > > >Reserve changes as part of the larger plan of Army restructure.
> > > >This
> > > > > > > >would take alot of the political heat of the MND as his
> >decision
> > > >would
> > > > > > > >effect regular and reserve at the same time to provide a
> >"better"
> > > >Army
> > > > > > > >to Canadians.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Remember, Armies runon paper work...it‘s an administrative
> > > >thing, as
> > > > > > > >well as
> > > > > > > > > a legal thing. The CDS can order the re-activation of a
> >unit,
> > > >but
> > > > > > > >Parliment
> > > > > > > > > or the Privy Council must pass an Order in Council to
> > > >reformulate a
> > > > > > > > > disbanded unit. Disbandment also connotates shame
> >suppositly.
> > > > > > > > > >From: Patrick Cain
> > > > > > > > > >Reply-To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > > > >To: army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> > > > > > > > > >Subject: Re: Supplementary Order of Battle
> > > > > > > > > >Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2000 14:36:49 -0500
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >At 11:18 01/04/2000 PST, John Hill wrote:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > >The units listed on the SOB can be "re-activated" very
> > > >easily,
> > > > > >and in
> > > > > > > >the
> > > > > > > > > > >event of a major conflict they would most probably be.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Why would it be easier to resurrect a militia unit that had
> > > >been
> > > > > > > >disbanded
> > > > > > > > > >for thirty years than to create one from stratch?
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >I can see how you‘d save some time on ceremonial issues -
> >the
> > > > > >colours
> > > > > > > >would
> > > > > > > > > >probably be hanging in a church somewhere, and you might be
> > > >able to
> > > > > > > >track
> > > > > > > > > >down the mess silver in a museum vault - but apart from
> >that
> > > >area,
> > > > > >I
> > > > > > > >don‘t
> > > > > > > > > >see it.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >Patrick Cain
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >voice: 416 539-0939
> > > > > > > > > >fax: 416 515-3698
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