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Re: Reorg?

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Posted by "John Gilmour" <jgilmour@atsrecruitment.com> on Tue, 21 Mar 2000 10:59:59 -0500
What ?
No way that would be the final blow, in the Liberal Party Grand Strategy
since 1964, to utterly destroy the Armed Forces of Canada to replace them
with Pinkerton Guards !
-----Original Message-----
From: Derrick Forsythe
To: ‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:53 AM
Subject: Reorg?
>I was at one of my secret squirrel meetings last night and one of the
>bretheren there was saying the powers that be have put together a plan to
>fold 2 Brigade into 1CMBG and that units would be losing their traditional
>names ie Strathconas in favour of teh American system of simply numbering
>units.
>
>Anyone out here heard similar rumblings or is this just another case of the
>rumour mill working overtime
>
>
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Posted by Derrick Forsythe <Derrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.ca> on Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:03:34 -0700
I‘m not saying it‘s true - I‘m simply wondering if anyone else has heard
similar rumblings.....
> -----Original Message-----
> From:John Gilmour [SMTP:jgilmour@atsrecruitment.com]
> Sent:Tuesday, March 21, 2000 9:00 AM
> To:army@cipherlogic.on.ca
> Subject:Re: Reorg?
>
> What ?
> No way that would be the final blow, in the Liberal Party Grand Strategy
> since 1964, to utterly destroy the Armed Forces of Canada to replace
> them
> with Pinkerton Guards !
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Derrick Forsythe
> To: ‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘
> Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:53 AM
> Subject: Reorg?
>
>
> >I was at one of my secret squirrel meetings last night and one of the
> >bretheren there was saying the powers that be have put together a plan to
> >fold 2 Brigade into 1CMBG and that units would be losing their
> traditional
> >names ie Strathconas in favour of teh American system of simply
> numbering
> >units.
> >
> >Anyone out here heard similar rumblings or is this just another case of
> the
> >rumour mill working overtime
> >
> >
> >--------------------------------------------------------
> >NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> >to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> >to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> >message body.
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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Posted by "Todd Harris" <harris@nortelnetworks.com> on Tue, 21 Mar 2000 11:09:36 -0500
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
If that happens to my Unit Cameron Highlanders of Ottawa I‘ll be taking my
"retirement bonus" and my release.
Todd Harris
-----Original Message-----
From: John Gilmour [mailto:jgilmour@atsrecruitment.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 11:00
To: army
Subject: Re: Reorg?
What ?
No way that would be the final blow, in the Liberal Party Grand Strategy
since 1964, to utterly destroy the Armed Forces of Canada to replace them
with Pinkerton Guards !
-----Original Message-----
From: Derrick Forsythe
To: ‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:53 AM
Subject: Reorg?
>I was at one of my secret squirrel meetings last night and one of the
>bretheren there was saying the powers that be have put together a plan to
>fold 2 Brigade into 1CMBG and that units would be losing their traditional
>names ie Strathconas in favour of teh American system of simply numbering
>units.
>
>Anyone out here heard similar rumblings or is this just another case of the
>rumour mill working overtime
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------
>NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
>to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
>to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
>message body.
--------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
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message body.
RE: Reorg?
If that happens to my Unit Cameron Highlanders of
Ottawa I‘ll be taking my quotretirement bonusquot and my
release.
Todd Harris
-----Original Message-----
From: John Gilmour [mailto:jgilmour@atsrecruitme
nt.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 11:00
To: army
Subject: Re: Reorg?
What ?
No way that would be the final blow, in the Liberal
Party Grand Strategy
since 1964, to utterly destroy the Armed Forces of
Canada amp to replace them
with Pinkerton Guards !
-----Original Message-----
From: Derrick Forsythe
ltDerrick.Forsythe@gov.ab.cagt
To: ‘army@cipherlogic.on.ca‘
ltarmy@cipherlogic.on.cagt
Date: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:53 AM
Subject: Reorg?
gtI was at one of my secret squirrel meetings last
night and one of the
gtbretheren there was saying the powers that be
have put together a plan to
gtfold 2 Brigade into 1CMBG and that units would
be losing their traditional
gtnames ie Strathconas in favour of teh American
system of simply numbering
gtunits.
gt
gtAnyone out here heard similar rumblings or is
this just another case of the
gtrumour mill working overtime
gt
gt
gt--------------------------------------------------------
gtNOTE: To remove yourself from this list,
send a message
gtto majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account
you wish
gtto remove, with the line quotunsubscribe
armyquot in the
gtmessage body.
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armyquot in the
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Posted by "Michael O‘Leary" <moleary@bmts.com> on Tue, 21 Mar 2000 16:34:42 -0500
Probably just another spin-off theory of an option for force restructure.
Lots of ideas out there, but it doesn‘t mean they have any particular
weight. Likely someone spounting "possibilities" to achieve the inferred
reduction to two brigades that floated about last year. I‘d say it‘s about
as likely as the thinly veiled threat to disband the Snowbirds.
Then again, look at the history of most of our units. The only constant is
the regular round of redesignations, role/corps conversions and
amalgamations which seems to happen every 20-30 years.
Mike
At 08:46 AM 3/21/00 -0700, you wrote:
>I was at one of my secret squirrel meetings last night and one of the
>bretheren there was saying the powers that be have put together a plan to
>fold 2 Brigade into 1CMBG and that units would be losing their traditional
>names ie Strathconas in favour of teh American system of simply numbering
>units.
>
>Anyone out here heard similar rumblings or is this just another case of the
>rumour mill working overtime
Michael O‘Leary
Visit The Regimental Rogue at:
http://regimentalrogue.tripod.com/index.htm
Leadership is the practical application of character. - Colonel R.
Meinertzhagen, CBE, DSO, Army Diary, 1899-1926, 1960
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Posted by Carl DINSDALE <joscol@mb.sympatico.ca> on Tue, 21 Mar 2000 21:36:21 -0600
God I hope not, it would be a terrible loss of the tradition, history and pride
that is associated with the different units.
Pro Patria
Carl
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
> I was at one of my secret squirrel meetings last night and one of the
> bretheren there was saying the powers that be have put together a plan to
> fold 2 Brigade into 1CMBG and that units would be losing their traditional
> names ie Strathconas in favour of teh American system of simply numbering
> units.
>
> Anyone out here heard similar rumblings or is this just another case of the
> rumour mill working overtime
>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> NOTE: To remove yourself from this list, send a message
> to majordomo@cipherlogic.on.ca from the account you wish
> to remove, with the line "unsubscribe army" in the
> message body.
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Posted by Gunner <randr1@home.com> on Thu, 23 Mar 2000 18:56:09 -0700
Two points on the discussion about Reg and Res reorg:
First, 2 CMBG disbanded and molded into 1 CMBG. The army has been
working on rationalizing its structure over the last year or so. Based
on the Liberal 1994 White Paper, the Army has been tasked to be able to
provide a BG and a BN Gp on a continuous basis. Additionally the army
must be capable of depl a Bde for overseas service or for continental
defence.
The Army now looks at what we need to sustain the BG and Bn Gp
overseas. No doubt you‘ve heard the 4 1=5 option? It reqrs 5 manoevre
units inf and armd to sp a BG overseas on a continuous basis with a
two year break between op depls..the whiz kids in Ottawa have determined
18 months between depls is ok, however, 24 is the right number!.
Hence, if our commitment is 2 BG/Bn Gps overseas, the reqr is 10
manoeuvre units. We currently have 12, therefore we are spending our
resources on two inf/armd units too many! Same thing with the Bdes,
need one for overseas service and one for continental defence...if we
need two...why do we have three!
There are a couple of options being looked at. When the CLS was in Edm
he mentioned that there will be a firm direction on where we are going
in the near future. Remember though, this is simply what the army wants
to do, it still has to be approved by the CDS, DM, MND, and the PM! May
be posturing...Why the secrecy on this issue, I wonder?
Second Point. LFRR is over and the results have been forwarded to the
MND. Due to the political nature of LFRR, the MND was inundated by
Reserves 2000, council of HCols, etc. Therefore, the MND, before Xmas,
appointed the Hon John Frazier HCol of the R West R ?, Bev Dewar ?
and Dr Bercuson U of Calg as a subcommittee of the Minister‘s
Monitoring Committee on Change to address LFRR. There report is due at
the end of this month. Yes the plan is still around to convert alot of
Cbt Arms functions to CSS...I don‘t think this is necessarily a bad
thing. However, if you don‘t provide the resources and eqpt for
whatever role you are going to give the Res, we will be right back were
we started with the Res F - pouring $190M into the Res with very little
return this is not the Res F‘s fault!.
Didn‘t mean to send such a lengthy email. Hope it helps.
Derrick Forsythe wrote:
>
> Can anyone out here confirm or deny the proposal first floated about a year
> ago to disband all Combat Arms functions within the Reserves and reorg the
> organization to provide solely CSS-type support has been shelved.
>
> Rumblings on my nets indicate the plan may actually still be kicking around.
>
> Perhaps those so placed could flash their respective Honourary nets to see
> what, if anything, is happening.
>
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Posted by "Bradley Sallows" <Bradley_Sallows@ismbc.com> on Mon, 27 Mar 2000 13:08:40 -0800
>a plan to fold 2 Brigade into 1CMBG
The grain of truth seems to be that a trial balloon was floated supporting
reduction of the current 3 brigades into 2, without identifying any specific
reconfiguration. This strikes me as a political impossibility since it
presupposes the citizenry, and hence politicians, will tolerate an army split
50/50 anglo/franco regardless of the reality, that‘s how the plan‘s detractors
will spin it. Someone is playing the game in which one pretends to offer the
decision maker two or more alternatives, knowing that all but one the favoured
one are unpalatable.
> and that units would be losing their traditional names ie Strathconas in
favour of teh American system of simply numbering units.
This is probably 100 mushroom fodder.
>Anyone out here heard similar rumblings or is this just another case of the
rumour mill working overtime
Methinks very much the latter.
>Can anyone out here confirm or deny the proposal first floated about a year ago
to disband all Combat Arms functions within the Reserves and reorg the
organization to provide solely CSS-type support has been shelved.
The proposal was not to disband all CA and CSA in favour of CSS it suggested
reducing CA in favour of increasing CSS. The plan still exists, along with
every other possible incarnation conceived to date. My belief is that all of
these are on hold pending decisions pertaining to Regular Force structure, or at
least until the MND receives a full briefing on all the facts rather than the
narrow viewpoint of each advocacy group. Since LFRR started, I have not been
holding my breath and have stressed the need to conduct business as usual:
recruit, train, and retain. I suspect true restructure will be a gradual
process executed on a case-by-case basis - unit with like roles who share an
armoury may be amalgamated, two geographically proximal units with low strengths
may be amalgamated into one unit which can provide an effective mission element,
and so forth.
>1. If Reserve soldiers join "a Regiment" rather than seek jobs, and esprit de
corps is "so high" because of the "Regimental System", why is there such a high
attrition rate?
There seem to be two main points of attrition. The first is soldiers recruited
for summer training who choose not to continue employment past 30 August. This
seems to particularly plague those units who target students in the last year of
high-school - some just want the summer job, and others aren‘t really ready for
military service. The unseen benefit is that the cost to the CF is presumably
cheaper than if those in the latter group had directly joined the regular
forces. If the reserves can be used to filter out those individuals before they
sign a contract for regular service, so much the better. I think the true
reserve attrition rate should exclude any soldier who departs before completing
QL2 or in the first six months after completing QL2.
The second point of attrition is soldiers reaching the end of post-secondary
education programs. If they have a job, they have less time or may be required
to relocate. If they don‘t have employment prospects, they often consider a
component transfer to the Regular Force. Either way, most people must work to
live, and this is entirely out of the control of reserve units. This happens to
coincide with the time at which most soldiers are attaining MCpl rank, and is
the best hypothesis I can conceive to explain the shortage of soldiers at that
rank and the difficulty staffing junior instructor positions during the summer.
Since the Regular Force is at least in some part a beneficiary of this drain, I
lobby anyone who cares to listen that the Regular Force has a vested interest in
ensuring reserve courses are adequately staffed.
Excluding non- or recent-QL2 soldiers as mentioned above, my own unit loses
soldiers for three primary reasons in no particular order: lack of time due to
commencement of full-time employment, relocation due to commencement of
full-time employment and those that can, do transfer to a unit in their new
location, and transfer into the Regular Force. Very few leave because they are
dissatisfied - maybe 1.5 per year.
In short, reserve attrition exists for good reasons, and the Regular Force
benefits in two ways:
1 Uncertain soldiers get a taste of military life at less net expense to the CF
than joining the Regular Force, and
2 It seems intuitive that experienced reservists who become regulars should be
more willing to remain in for a full career compared to regular soldiers
recruited directly off the street, and reservists also come with some value
training and experience added.
>2. If our political masters intend to force some degree of change, is not
reroling or amalagamtion better than risking disbandment? It‘s not exactly a
new experience in our Army, historically, the norm is amalgamation, renaming,
reroling and change.
Absolutely. It can take years to replace the numbers of soldiers lost to an
offhand cut or freeze in recruitment. Why should the units currently in
existence be more protected than those which have been consigned to history in
the past?
>3. If individual unit pride is so high that mass resignations are predicted as
likely, than how did the Elgin Regiment survive reroling to Engineers?
I think we have "Chicken Little" syndrome here. Scare tactics annoy me because
I think such behaviour destroys the credibility of the doomsayer. My own
respect for someone drops a notch when they attempt to shoehorn me into a
decision by falsely portraying adverse consequences. Short of reroling a combat
arms unit with a long history and pride into some sort of comparative non-entity
like a numbered CSS sub-unit, I doubt most soldiers will react in this fashion.
>Or do they plan to go down with the ship to use a Senior Service metaphor,
leaving the troops who wish to continue serving without leadership.
My preferred metaphor is "rats deserting a sinking ship", except the ship isn‘t
likely to sink. The hollow satisfaction of resigning in disgust or
disappointment benefits only the person committing the act and is to my mind a
disgraceful abdication of leadership.
Brad Sallows
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