Questions About Commissioning from the ranks

[Boder]

Hello everyone,

I did my CFAT for the reserves and qualified for All NCM trades and Officer if I have a degree but not ROTP (I am currently in my second year of University). I decided I did not want to wait like my friends and never end up joining, so I will be going through as an NCM infanteer as the Mcpl giving me my results was a valiant supporter of officers having prior experience as an NCM. I am just curious about the likelihood of me being able to commission later on or if it would be better for my career to VR and DEO after I receive my degree. Another question would be whether infantry is a good trade or if I should switch to a different one. If so, which is best for future civilian careers? the Mcpl I was speaking to kept emphasizing and reminding me that I had qualified for "ALL" NCM trades and could swap if interested; although I'm not too interested in swapping, I'd like to hear other people's opinions on Infantry over other trades.

 

[PuckChaser]

If you want to be an officer, be an officer. You'd really just be delaying your career path as you're going to start all over again as a junior officer. There is no guarantee you'd be given an opportunity to CFR.

 

[Boder]

If you want to be an officer, be an officer. You'd really just be delaying your career path as you're going to start all over again as a junior officer. There is no guarantee you'd be given an opportunity to CFR.

Oh, sorry. I forgot to mention that they told us our region (Toronto) had a significant backlog of officers and were likely not hiring any for this or next fiscal year. I wouldn't be able to join as an officer now anyway since I don't have a degree yet and didn't qualify for ROTP. if I'm not wrong, you're saying I should just wait to DEO?

 

[brihard]

Is there any reason not to just apply to join the reserves as an officer cadet in the officer trade that interests you? It’s normal in the reserves to have new officers who are still going through university on their own dime. Now, you would have to be competitive of course- but there’s nothing wrong with asking about it.

That said, if officer simply isn’t an officer for you locally, infantry NCM can be fun. I joined as an NCM in high school and served through university, including taking two years off school to deploy.

Commissioning later is never a guarantee, but neither is joining as an officer now. If you wait a couple years til you graduate, you may struggle to carve out time from your civilian life for all the basic training.

Whatever NCM or officer trade you may want to do later, a couple years in the infantry would get you good exposure to the basics of the military, and would inoculate you against a certain amount of suck. Obviously the infantry has little real direct utility to a civilian career n terms of the run and gun stuff, but before very long you’d start getting administrative and leadership experience that could serve you very well later. It’s helped me.

 

[PuckChaser]

There's never a guarantee you can CFR, its a recommendation from your chain of command and there has to be a spot open.

What I'm saying is that if you take the NCM route, be 100% committed to it. They will not look at you to CFR if ROTP/DEO is that popular until you're typically a Sgt (that's at least 10 years of service for the RegF, no idea on PRes). If by year 4 as a junior Cpl you're bitter because you're not an officer yet then you may have a terrible time and just quit.

 

[brihard]

There's never a guarantee you can CFR, its a recommendation from your chain of command and there has to be a spot open.

What I'm saying is that if you take the NCM route, be 100% committed to it. They will not look at you to CFR if ROTP/DEO is that popular until you're typically a Sgt (that's at least 10 years of service for the RegF, no idea on PRes). If by year 4 as a junior Cpl you're bitter because you're not an officer yet then you may have a terrible time and just quit.

In an urban PRes unit, figure half the junior troops are probably university students. I saw a few switched on young Cpls with 3-4 years who were able to make the jump to officer. Not saying it’s easy or likely, but PRes units have more individual freedom at unit level to fill their officer positions that way should they choose.

 

[Boder]

There's never a guarantee you can CFR, its a recommendation from your chain of command and there has to be a spot open.

What I'm saying is that if you take the NCM route, be 100% committed to it. They will not look at you to CFR if ROTP/DEO is that popular until you're typically a Sgt (that's at least 10 years of service for the RegF, no idea on PRes). If by year 4 as a junior Cpl you're bitter because you're not an officer yet then you may have a terrible time and just quit.

If I quit and DEO as soon as I'm available, would that hurt my career/chances? The way I'm thinking about it is that I'll get the experience I wouldn't typically have had I waited to DEO, which is time not wasted on my career since my career would not have been able to start as an officer since I believe when she said I qualified for Officer, it was with a degree and not in the process of obtaining one unless that is not how to process works and accidentally ended up saying I will go NCM when I could go in as an Officer. I've sent an email to the Brigade recruiting, so hopefully, I will hear from them soon to clear some things up.

 

[PuckChaser]

Brihard is far more knowledgeable on the PRes infantry side, and it's been 15 years since I was in the 'Mo. The point I want to drive home is that you're not entitled to CFR even with a good CFAT score. Any number or things could mean you're bypassed for a CFR but a smart unit would want to pick a known entity with good leadership skills than the "mystery box" they'd pick from with new DEO folks.

I would highly recommend against releasing and reenrolling DEO. There's an administrative process that causes delays and the unit may not look kindly at your file especially if you've been bypassed for CFR before you played this card.

 

[Gunnar]

If you want to officer, then go be an officer. If you want to be a good officer, then pay attention in leadership classes and watch everything the NCMs do, and listen to everything they say. Yes, an officer who has spent time in ranks will know what the daily grind is like, and what the view is like on the bottom, but you can learn a lot of the same things if you understand that there is officer you, and FNG you. Ask for help, if you need it. Ask for explanations if you need them. Be humble in learning, but don't let your humility get in the way of your authority, or vice versa. Live to lead, watch out for your people and learn the little things that make the difference, like working your butt off to get plans and forms filled out so your people get the things that matter to them on time and without hassle. Learn from books and movies, but strive to temper fantasy with reality so that you're not just playing the part, but living it. In short, be a leadership nerd and always be watching, and you won't miss time in ranks to know the important things. Do this, and at some point your commission will be ratified in the eyes of your people, and best of all, you'll catch the occasional reflection of yourself doing the work and be able to think "I'm doing it".

I am not an officer on the pointy end myself, but leadership, mentorship, administration and FOLLOWING THROUGH are timeless officer skills you will use for the rest of your life. If this is what you want to do, start doing it.

And if you want to do only some of those things but become a skilled warrior, machinist, logistician, as well, the do the NCM thing and be the best NCM you can be, being the man who knows his job, and who can be relied upon to get it done when and how it needs to be done. It is said that the army runs on corporals, and in my civvie job I speak to a lot of them, qualified and skilled people who get the job done. For every officer with the grand plan, there is always a team of NCMs who make it happen. That could be you too.

 

[brihard]

I’ve been out for almost five years; my recollections and observations are dated.

I recommend against releasing and re-enrolling; it’s not a shortcut. You could release on Thursday and reapply next Tuesday and the system would bog down verifying your former service.

In the regular force, your trade has more ownership of you and it can be hard to transfer out in some cases. In the reserves, that’s much less the case- few of us were there to sit in the same trade/unit fin perpetuity. PRes units are used to being launch pads; members, especially NCMs, regularly do a couple years in a trade as a kid then transfer to a different one, or commission, or go reg force. You won’t be blocked from transfering out of a given PRes trade simply because that trade is short (unless you land in some weird niche I’m not familiar with). But infantry NCM? If you’re a good troop, don’t suck at your job and aren’t a discipline case or major administrative burden there should be no real impediment to moving on to a different CAF career if you’re found suitable.

 

[Brad Sallows]

If you want officer, start with that path.

As others have said, CFR is not guaranteed. One of the usual reasons for CFR is to fill need, not because NCMs decide they want to be officers. And in a few cases, regimental politics may impede you.

 

[brihard]

If you want officer, start with that path.

As others have said, CFR is not guaranteed. One of the usual reasons for CFR is to fill need, not because NCMs decide they want to be officers. And in a few cases, regimental politics may impede you.

Joining the reserves as an officer can be tricky though. There are generally very few ‘off the street’ positions available for new recruits to come in as an officer. It may simply not be an option open to him now or in the near future.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Hello everyone,

I did my CFAT for the reserves and qualified for All NCM trades and Officer if I have a degree but not ROTP (I am currently in my second year of University). I decided I did not want to wait like my friends and never end up joining, so I will be going through as an NCM infanteer as the Mcpl giving me my results was a valiant supporter of officers having prior experience as an NCM. I am just curious about the likelihood of me being able to commission later on or if it would be better for my career to VR and DEO after I receive my degree. Another question would be whether infantry is a good trade or if I should switch to a different one. If so, which is best for future civilian careers? the Mcpl I was speaking to kept emphasizing and reminding me that I had qualified for "ALL" NCM trades and could swap if interested; although I'm not too interested in swapping, I'd like to hear other people's opinions on Infantry over other trades.

Why would you not go RESO?

Some of the better looking, more humble members here went down that pathway

And, IMHO, forget about the 'military to civilian career transferability' thing. Do what you have a passion for.

For example, Infantry is awesome and there are alot of leadership skills that are directly transferable to anything.

 

[Boder]

Why would you not go RESO?

Some of the better looking, more humble members here went down that pathway

And, IMHO, forget about the 'military to civilian career transferability' thing. Do what you have a passion for.

For example, Infantry is awesome and there are alot of leadership skills that are directly transferable to anything.

To be completely honest, I did not know that was an option. I have just emailed the file manager to see if RESO is still available to me as I have my interview and Medical booked already.

 

[Brad Sallows]

Joining the reserves as an officer can be tricky though. There are generally very few ‘off the street’ positions available for new recruits to come in as an officer. It may simply not be an option open to him now or in the near future.

Yes, and that reminds me of another factor. Some units want to have a long look at potential officers before they use up a slot. That means a few years NCM to demonstrate potential, but not necessarily enough time and training to qualify for CFR.

 

[CountDC]

Lots of good points here that are certainly worth listening too.

Having worked with the PRes unit establishments I will mention that every unit does have several positions that could be used for new officers, the problem will be finding a unit that has an open one. last unit I was at all our positions were filled and we had even borrowed one from the bde.

Ignore the "officers should have ncm experience" thing. I have seen CFRs that ended up on both ends of the scale as officers. For some the NCM experience was good and made them better officers. For others the jump from NCM to officer only made them bigger aholes and unpopular with all the NCMs and Officers. Sometimes power, both real and assumed, corrupts. Good example - had one that told a girl he was dating and been introduced by her brother that he could no longer associate with the brother because he was an officer cadet now and her brother was only a master-corporal. They didn't last long.

I agree with the trade comments. Pick a trade that you feel will be happy with, put all you best into it and then if you decide it isn't for you request a change. Infantry is a good pick for the experience and tends to make for better support trades when changed. It's always easier to understand someone's situation when you have been there yourself.

Personally I believe it is better to join the PRes as an NCM as there are more job opps and they have more fun.

 

[da1root]

A few administrative points on this thread:

1) ROTP is a Regular Force only entry option. It stands for Regular Officer Training Plan, you goto university (a high number is through RMC); at the end you are in the Regular Force and "owe" time back to the CAF for them putting you through school.

2) RESO is a Reserve Officer entry plan; and although the entry plan exists they unit still needs to have SIP (intake) for it. In the Regular Force there is separate SIP for ROTP and for DEO; in the PRes they get a SIP of "you can enroll X officers"; so pulling in Health Services because that's my area of expertise - if a Reserve Unit is told they have no positions for a HSM Officer for the next 2 years, it doesn't matter if it's DEO or RESO; there are just no positions.

3) CFR is rank dependent on what occupation, last I recall a MCpl/MS can CFR from many Log Occupations to LogO. For CFR for example you can't go from being an MP to being a LogO.

4) SCP (Special Commissioning Plan) although interchanged quite frequently with CFR and is similar in nature if a different policy that handles the procedures, requires Chain of Command support, is not rank specific (i.e. a Cpl can do SCP and become an Officer)

5) I believe it's been eluded too, but do not release and try to get back in under DEO. I haven't looked at the policy lately, but (1) if you request to release from the Reserves on 1 June, your file wont' be done on 1 June, it will take longer. In addition, (2) once your file is finally released there is a minimum time period that you have to wait before you reapply. Once you reapply look at how much time it's taking you to get in now, it'll take that same amount of time to get back in (and technically longer because you'll have to wait for a PLAR to be done).

Key point whether you're joining the ResF or the RegF - join to do something you think you'd enjoy doing for your time in the CAF. There are people like me that I'm on my 3rd occupation and I did SCP and go from being a PO2 RMS Clerk to a SLt HSM Officer; but I didn't ever have that expectation.

 

[Furniture]

If your plan right now is to get your foot in the door and experience the military in the reserves while attending university, it's hard to go wrong with an NCM occupation. If you decide to switch to the regular force, you'll be doing a component transfer, and at that time you can choose to apply for officer, or stick with NCM.

Very few CAF occupations directly translate into civilian jobs, but the general skills you learn will be useful anywhere you go.

As for the NCM to officer commissioning plans, they tend to have different purposes as highlighted by @da1root. CFR is pretty narrow in scope, but there are other options. As far as I'm aware, even in the RegF, your occupation can't prevent you from commissioning if you are selected via one of the available plans.

 

[OldSolduer]

In an urban PRes unit, figure half the junior troops are probably university students. I saw a few switched on young Cpls with 3-4 years who were able to make the jump to officer. Not saying it’s easy or likely, but PRes units have more individual freedom at unit level to fill their officer positions that way should they choose.

This is true and usually (at least here when I was in) officers were not always plentiful or suitable. There were a number of NCOs I would have liked to see commissioned but they liked what they were doing.

 

[da1root]

"they liked what they were doing."

Part of why it took me so long to finally accept the CoCs continued attempts to get me to do SCP, lol Life sure is different as an Officer, sometimes I miss being an NCM...